Qantas Pilots, You Are Losing The Battle.
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Let me make one thing clear. QF pilots were not involved in 89, but they supported us in many ways. We totally understood their position, and were grateful for their encouragement and good wishes. They made sure any pilot from TN or AN who turned up on their doorstep, known to us as S$^bs were not greeted with open arms, in fact were treated as ar$eholes, it meant a lot to us, and it meant a lot to us that it went on for years to come. Having said that, if I sound like I am over the top, its because I am worried. I am worried that our profession is about to take another hit. I would HATE for any of you to go thru the same ****, and some how I am trying to convey to you that IF it turns into a escalation between Joyce and yourselves, and the govt steps in (and they will if QF is not operating past 48 hrs) that you will come across the most vicious, conniving bunch of bastards that you can imagine. I suppose to this day I cannot believe we were conned, but we were and so easily done, because we were operating in a field of which we had no experience, and this is where the problem lies. However you have to put your faith is somebody to lead and lead well, and be able to stand up to the company and its mates, and hopefully you have chosen well.
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A dedication to all Australian Pilots, Engineers, CCs and the frontline staff
QF pilots were not involved in 89, but they supported us in many ways. We totally understood their position, and were grateful for their encouragement and good wishes. They made sure any pilot from TN or AN who turned up on their doorstep, known to us as S$^bs were not greeted with open arms in fact were treated as ar$eholes, it meant a lot to us,
I put together a collection of the videos dedicated to all the Aussie Pilots, Engineers, CCs and the front line staff, you all do a great job considering the heavy corporate climate you all have to endure. Maintain the rage.
Hope you like it.
Last edited by TIMA9X; 3rd Jun 2011 at 14:07. Reason: bad c & P
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Outstanding
TIMA9X one word: Outstanding.
The bit I like is the QF32 FO's line:
"I mean I'm not looking for an explanation as to what happened to us, but for the future of this industry you need an openness, um, or people will just get killed and thats as simple as that, and if they don't want to do it then you're in the wrong business".
Whilst we don't have money and the contacts the management have we have the numbers and we have the internet. Its a start and its certainly better than sitting around and doing nothing about it.
The bit I like is the QF32 FO's line:
"I mean I'm not looking for an explanation as to what happened to us, but for the future of this industry you need an openness, um, or people will just get killed and thats as simple as that, and if they don't want to do it then you're in the wrong business".
Whilst we don't have money and the contacts the management have we have the numbers and we have the internet. Its a start and its certainly better than sitting around and doing nothing about it.
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Charlie,
Have you been living under a rock ?.
Why are some Pilots paid more than others doing the same job??? i.e Why do Qantas Captains get paid more than Jetstar Captains?
TG, I know that you mean well, but your statements are based on fear and the experience of the past. To reiterate, 1989 was unprotected action that exposed pilots to being sued for damages for their actions. QF pilots are voting on taking protected action. They are protected for any civil liability. If QF stopped flying for more than 48 hours, it would be in contravention of what has already been approved by Fair Work Australia. Assuming that QF pilots vote to take PIA, the two possible outcomes would be a negotiated outcome with the company or Fair Work Australia would make a determination. Take a look at the Fair Work website About industrial action | Fair Work Australia That is not to say that QF pilots may not have to put some of their pay at risk while they take action, but they are not putting their jobs on the line by taking action, and if either side take action that causes significant financial hardship to the other side, FWA will stop the action. This is a legitimate process with an impartial umpire assuring both parties that a high-stakes situation like 1989 does not re-occur.
The real danger now, and one that is made more likely by emotive, un-informed comments, is that now that AIPA has committed to a vote for industrial action, the membership may vote no. Anything other than a strong 'yes' vote dis-empowers the AIPA negotiating team from achieving anything. A 'no' vote garantees the job security issue is off the table and will never be achieved.
The worst case for a 'yes' vote is that after protracted action the company does not agree and there is a determination by FWA that does not include job security. Members will most likely have lost a few dollars trying, but they would not have lost their jobs. Is it worth risking a few dollars pay to show that job security is worth fighting for? I would say yes, but QF pilots will have to decide that. Are their jobs at risk by doing so? I would say not. On the contrary, voting 'no' is effectively giving the company your consent to offshore or re-package your job.
The real danger now, and one that is made more likely by emotive, un-informed comments, is that now that AIPA has committed to a vote for industrial action, the membership may vote no. Anything other than a strong 'yes' vote dis-empowers the AIPA negotiating team from achieving anything. A 'no' vote garantees the job security issue is off the table and will never be achieved.
The worst case for a 'yes' vote is that after protracted action the company does not agree and there is a determination by FWA that does not include job security. Members will most likely have lost a few dollars trying, but they would not have lost their jobs. Is it worth risking a few dollars pay to show that job security is worth fighting for? I would say yes, but QF pilots will have to decide that. Are their jobs at risk by doing so? I would say not. On the contrary, voting 'no' is effectively giving the company your consent to offshore or re-package your job.
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The headmaster has said that Qantas pilots can strike indefinately, until they get what the want or toss in the towell, and will never be in any danger of losing their jobs!
Yeah, sure!...In your dreams!
Yeah, sure!...In your dreams!
obie2, I never mentioned the word 'strike' or the word 'indefinitely'.
You have either not read correctly or are being mischievous.
A company cannot sack you for taking protected action. They can lock you out and you will not be paid for work not done. The action that a company takes must be proportional to that done by the employees, so a lockout will not be tolerated by FWA for, say, making PAs in support of PIA.
There are many forms of action that have already been approved by FWA for QF pilots to take (should they vote yes) that do not incorporate the withdrawal of labour (strike). PIA does not necessarily involve strike action.
My points are that the fears posted by some are not based on the political or legislative position we are in now vs 1989. How is the government going to take action? It can either legislate or use its executive powers. It already has a legislative framework in place that covers the situation so does not need to use any other executive power. How many times do people have to state this: this is totally different from '89!
If you are involved, inform yourself by looking at the FWA site, or if you have a legal mind, the Act.
You have either not read correctly or are being mischievous.
A company cannot sack you for taking protected action. They can lock you out and you will not be paid for work not done. The action that a company takes must be proportional to that done by the employees, so a lockout will not be tolerated by FWA for, say, making PAs in support of PIA.
There are many forms of action that have already been approved by FWA for QF pilots to take (should they vote yes) that do not incorporate the withdrawal of labour (strike). PIA does not necessarily involve strike action.
My points are that the fears posted by some are not based on the political or legislative position we are in now vs 1989. How is the government going to take action? It can either legislate or use its executive powers. It already has a legislative framework in place that covers the situation so does not need to use any other executive power. How many times do people have to state this: this is totally different from '89!
If you are involved, inform yourself by looking at the FWA site, or if you have a legal mind, the Act.
Last edited by theheadmaster; 4th Jun 2011 at 09:30.
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Some of you people are out of touch with reality. 
If the QF crew vote for PIA, it won't be strikes, it will be more of a work to rule, refuse overtime etc.
So there won't be anyone striking "indefinitely", obie.
This is 2011, not 1989.
If the QF crew vote for PIA, it won't be strikes, it will be more of a work to rule, refuse overtime etc.
So there won't be anyone striking "indefinitely", obie.
This is 2011, not 1989.
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So, what's this all about then? You guys play ring around the rosy with Joyce and his mates for a few weeks, a little bit of slap and tickle, a bit of push and shove here and there, and then you all shake hands and say "Well that was fun and games wasn't it, shall we all get back to business now?"
Yeah sure!
Yeah sure!
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S'pose I'm tempting a 48 hr ban here but it needs to be said...
Mod
I have generally agreed with your intervention however - your latest post is highly subjective editorial in much the same way those posting their comments are expressing a subjective view.
That said, for the record I agree with your view , however, in terms of process;
1. This is not Fairfax where sub-ed function is outsourced
2. Similarly, the PIA will most likely be as you say., however: it in fact CAN involve indefinate strilke action - Happy to explain the legislative provisions, but that is a thread drift -
Unless a member of the forum posts content which is precluded by the agreed terms, then, as in this case, it is not a responsibility of the Mod to review/educate/editorialise.
Pprune exists and survives as an interactive forum - it is not always on track, and contributors regularly may not be accurate in their views, but that is the interchange that makes the forum work. Mods are there to uphold the integrity of the terms upon which one joins the forum.
While Obie2 is not on my top 500,000 people to have a drink with he/she is entilted to contribute to the debate (notwithstanding he/she needs to be a little more knowledgeable)
Tid., unless your are an experienced QF Pilot (pls come clean if you are/not) to enter the debate under your Mod ID in this instance is wholly inappropriate.
We can insert that quote from that famous US forefather here.
For the record however, you are more than probably right.
Here endeth my sermon -( and GT pls note: no I'm not applying to Pagemasters - so you are safe)
Best Wishes
AT
I have generally agreed with your intervention however - your latest post is highly subjective editorial in much the same way those posting their comments are expressing a subjective view.
That said, for the record I agree with your view , however, in terms of process;
1. This is not Fairfax where sub-ed function is outsourced
2. Similarly, the PIA will most likely be as you say., however: it in fact CAN involve indefinate strilke action - Happy to explain the legislative provisions, but that is a thread drift -
Unless a member of the forum posts content which is precluded by the agreed terms, then, as in this case, it is not a responsibility of the Mod to review/educate/editorialise.
Pprune exists and survives as an interactive forum - it is not always on track, and contributors regularly may not be accurate in their views, but that is the interchange that makes the forum work. Mods are there to uphold the integrity of the terms upon which one joins the forum.
While Obie2 is not on my top 500,000 people to have a drink with he/she is entilted to contribute to the debate (notwithstanding he/she needs to be a little more knowledgeable)
Tid., unless your are an experienced QF Pilot (pls come clean if you are/not) to enter the debate under your Mod ID in this instance is wholly inappropriate.
We can insert that quote from that famous US forefather here.
For the record however, you are more than probably right.
Here endeth my sermon -( and GT pls note: no I'm not applying to Pagemasters - so you are safe)
Best Wishes
AT
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Airbags, Tid is completely right to dismiss a certain thread drift which is so wholly unfounded and counter-productive to sensible argument. Anyone who has the slightlest bush-lawyer understanding of current industrial law would agree with that. Mods have to draw the line somewhere.
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While you are correct in the true sense, Airtags, I suspect that the QF pilots will not strike. I don't believe they will need to, as work to rule etc will be sufficient to get the point across to the right people.
Yes, my opinion is subjective, but also realistic, having been in their position on a couple of occasions.
I know enough about QF pilots' matters to make an informed comment, Airtags. Let's just leave it at that.
Yes, my opinion is subjective, but also realistic, having been in their position on a couple of occasions.
I know enough about QF pilots' matters to make an informed comment, Airtags. Let's just leave it at that.
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You may not like OBIE2's points,however,IMHO,he is correct. What are you going to do if your Fair Work Australia protected strike action only succeeds in seriously annoying the fare paying public?(who have already swallowed the media anti pilot spin) and does not result in;
a)-Government intervention in favour of Pilots and engineers.
b)-Media suddenly ignoring who pays the bills and backs your action.
c)-successful Employee payed for "we are Australian media campaign"(and save our jobs).
I acknowledge that their are many more knowledgeable posters than I here,
However,I believe that many of the ex "89's" comments, sometimes pilloried here for offering the benefit of painful experience,for no other reason than to try and help others in a profession we are all privileged to be a part of,are ignored because it can't happen today.
So back to the central question,if it does not work and given the emotion involved(And the stakes) could it not spiral out of control and then what?
a)-Government intervention in favour of Pilots and engineers.
b)-Media suddenly ignoring who pays the bills and backs your action.
c)-successful Employee payed for "we are Australian media campaign"(and save our jobs).
I acknowledge that their are many more knowledgeable posters than I here,
However,I believe that many of the ex "89's" comments, sometimes pilloried here for offering the benefit of painful experience,for no other reason than to try and help others in a profession we are all privileged to be a part of,are ignored because it can't happen today.
So back to the central question,if it does not work and given the emotion involved(And the stakes) could it not spiral out of control and then what?
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A much more reasoned response, Tid, sorry to have attempted to defend your response with my far fewer skills at the written word. I guess that is why you are a mod.
If I can rewrite: What Tid said.
If I can rewrite: What Tid said.
Nunc est bibendum
FWA have approved stop works of up to 48 hours amongst other things. I'd like to resolve this thing without having to pull the trigger on that particular aspect of PIA but if it gets to that then it does. There are other things that can be done prior to that point to get the message across and not all of them impact on the traveling public but they will have an impact on Qantas.
One point needs to be made clear though, we can NOT strike indefinitely under the provisions of the FWA ruling and have it considered 'protected'. We have NO intention of engaging in actions not sanctioned by FWA.
If the PIA doesn't work the FWA arbitrate an outcome. We have to abide by that.
A final point. I have no desire to 'annoy the crap' out of the traveling public and cause mass chaos. I want them to keep flying with us. I want them to keep buying tickets on Qantas. I also want them to know- and those flying with us will know- that unless Qantas pilots are successful in this then passengers in future may not have the experienced Qantas crew on the flight deck they expect to have.
One point needs to be made clear though, we can NOT strike indefinitely under the provisions of the FWA ruling and have it considered 'protected'. We have NO intention of engaging in actions not sanctioned by FWA.
If the PIA doesn't work the FWA arbitrate an outcome. We have to abide by that.
A final point. I have no desire to 'annoy the crap' out of the traveling public and cause mass chaos. I want them to keep flying with us. I want them to keep buying tickets on Qantas. I also want them to know- and those flying with us will know- that unless Qantas pilots are successful in this then passengers in future may not have the experienced Qantas crew on the flight deck they expect to have.
RATpin, I am sorry, but most of the assumptions you are using for the basis of your argument are incorrect. I will not address most of your points, as they have been addressed several times previously, but when it comes to the 'emotion' and 'stakes' and 'spiralling out of control', I believe most of the emotive statements are from posters on pprune that are not directly involved.
obie2, all I can do is suggest you read the appropriate information. It is all available on line. I am assuming you are not actually involved in this action, or you would be much better informed. I will say, however, that if you cannot work out that there are actions that can be taken that fall short of a strike that will impact the company without completely pissing off the flying public, then you are either not involved in the industry, or that any further attempt at changing your opinion is wasted time.
obie2, all I can do is suggest you read the appropriate information. It is all available on line. I am assuming you are not actually involved in this action, or you would be much better informed. I will say, however, that if you cannot work out that there are actions that can be taken that fall short of a strike that will impact the company without completely pissing off the flying public, then you are either not involved in the industry, or that any further attempt at changing your opinion is wasted time.
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I filled out the qantas frequent fliers questionaire yesterday at great length.
The final question was why are you a qantas frequent flier?
Simple Answer was .....
1 Aviation safety is always my first travel priority.
2 Australian.
Good luck chaps - I hope both sides can work it out together - management and crew have to be able to talk to each other reasonably.
The final question was why are you a qantas frequent flier?
Simple Answer was .....
1 Aviation safety is always my first travel priority.
2 Australian.
Good luck chaps - I hope both sides can work it out together - management and crew have to be able to talk to each other reasonably.