Qantas Pilots, You Are Losing The Battle.
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Captain South,
AJ's contract was detailed in an ASX release when he became CEO and the senior execs remuneration is summarised in the annual report every year.
And yes they are very well paid as indeed are all executives of major Australian listed companies. IMHO executive pay in Australia, and elsewhere, has got way out of control and Qantas historically were responsible for some of the worst excesses. But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies now and frankly the performance related structure (but not the magnitude) of his contract is far more palatable to shareholders than a seniority system.
As a pilot involved in the current fight, while I don't like details of our EBA coming out to the public as part of the war,I don't really think that public opinion will win or lose the war.
HOWEVER.....if that is the way it's run, why don't we publish the details of AJ's package or Buchanan or any of the other fools running this show?
I'm pretty sure they would get confirmed first class seats, millions of dollars in shares etc etc
HOWEVER.....if that is the way it's run, why don't we publish the details of AJ's package or Buchanan or any of the other fools running this show?
I'm pretty sure they would get confirmed first class seats, millions of dollars in shares etc etc
And yes they are very well paid as indeed are all executives of major Australian listed companies. IMHO executive pay in Australia, and elsewhere, has got way out of control and Qantas historically were responsible for some of the worst excesses. But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies now and frankly the performance related structure (but not the magnitude) of his contract is far more palatable to shareholders than a seniority system.
If by seniority you are referring to pilot seniority, then please do tell how a different system would work? Should we be filling out KPI reports as we are conducting the ILS on the 6th sector of the day?
As pretty much everyone else has said, you need to get some FACTS into the public domain, preferably on the same day as the QF spin gets released.
Explain things like subload, like the average payrises you have had previously, like the fact crew rest cant be used for joe public anyway etc.....
As pretty much everyone else has said, you need to get some FACTS into the public domain, preferably on the same day as the QF spin gets released.
Explain things like subload, like the average payrises you have had previously, like the fact crew rest cant be used for joe public anyway etc.....
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But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies now
Perhaps we can compare pilot & engineer T&C's of other comparable airlines.
Thread Starter
For the benefit of those who don't know, airline staff travel is mostly "Sub load"
Sub load = Subject to load.
It means you get the empty seat because there aren't enough full fare paying passengers to fill the aircraft. It also means that if a full fare paying passenger suddenly arrives, even at the last minute, then you have lost your seat.
This means that the "Ten percent fare" isn't always the bargain it is made out to be, like when you are stuck in London for a few extra days waiting for a seat home. I spent a fascinating but unscheduled six days in Karachi as the guest of Lufthansa on one of these jaunts. The ATO once looked at these fares with respect to fringe benefits tax and decided they weren't worth the trouble of taxing.
Some airlines will sometimes give staff a confirmed seat in certain circumstances, and occasionally upgrades, for example Ansett used to give you confirmed annual leave travel once a year, with an upgrade to first class if it was available.
The infinite gradations in determining access to staff travel are one of the tools used by airline management to divide, irritate, and rule their workforces.
As an engineer, we always got the short end of the stick. It was always the cabin crew who seemed to get the "long weekend in Hawaii" type perks. Certain managers often headed overseas with half a dozen first class open dated tickets in their pockets.
Sub load = Subject to load.
It means you get the empty seat because there aren't enough full fare paying passengers to fill the aircraft. It also means that if a full fare paying passenger suddenly arrives, even at the last minute, then you have lost your seat.
This means that the "Ten percent fare" isn't always the bargain it is made out to be, like when you are stuck in London for a few extra days waiting for a seat home. I spent a fascinating but unscheduled six days in Karachi as the guest of Lufthansa on one of these jaunts. The ATO once looked at these fares with respect to fringe benefits tax and decided they weren't worth the trouble of taxing.
Some airlines will sometimes give staff a confirmed seat in certain circumstances, and occasionally upgrades, for example Ansett used to give you confirmed annual leave travel once a year, with an upgrade to first class if it was available.
The infinite gradations in determining access to staff travel are one of the tools used by airline management to divide, irritate, and rule their workforces.
As an engineer, we always got the short end of the stick. It was always the cabin crew who seemed to get the "long weekend in Hawaii" type perks. Certain managers often headed overseas with half a dozen first class open dated tickets in their pockets.
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This costing method dumbfounds the mainstream media
The infinite gradations in determining access to staff travel are one of the tools used by airline management to divide, irritate, and rule their workforces.
Sub load = Subject to load.
Once the doors are shut those empty seats mean nothing.
This costing method dumbfounds the mainstream media, they never question it or don't know how to.
Am I right?
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If people want something to compare regarding staff travel, try this:
Pilots: Our tickets will never, ever displace a fare-paying passenger, even if that pax buys a ticket at the very last minute.
Execs: I while back just before Joyce took over I asked a ground staff manager in MEL why she looked so angry and flustered. The reason was that she had just been ordered to displace several full fare paying business class pax off a flight because Dixon and his entourage had at the last minute decided they wanted to get that flight. The order came directly from Dixon himself.
That's the difference.
Pilots: Our tickets will never, ever displace a fare-paying passenger, even if that pax buys a ticket at the very last minute.
Execs: I while back just before Joyce took over I asked a ground staff manager in MEL why she looked so angry and flustered. The reason was that she had just been ordered to displace several full fare paying business class pax off a flight because Dixon and his entourage had at the last minute decided they wanted to get that flight. The order came directly from Dixon himself.
That's the difference.
Nunc est bibendum
Nice return of serve here though. Subtle and will help us in the long run. I'm still a tad uneasy about leaving misconceptions un-refuted in the short term but I'm starting to get an idea of the playbook.
I don't particularly care what the Executives' pay rate is ... as it's probably ludicrous anyway.
But, as I said in an earlier post, I am interested in what KPIs trigger their salary/bonuses.
I suspect the KPIs are all bottom-line related ... as opposed to safety related.
If that is the position, then there is a clear case that the Qantas Management are driven by costs ... not safety.
Which is clearly at odds with their publicly spruiked Corporate philosophy and objectives.
But, as I said in an earlier post, I am interested in what KPIs trigger their salary/bonuses.
I suspect the KPIs are all bottom-line related ... as opposed to safety related.
If that is the position, then there is a clear case that the Qantas Management are driven by costs ... not safety.
Which is clearly at odds with their publicly spruiked Corporate philosophy and objectives.
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fight the fight
Thats right Keg. Fight fire with fire.
Information age means each and everyone of us can hit back. There are more of us than there are of them. Its only takes one anonymous phonecall/email to the SMH and their Geoffrey Thomas Surprise suNrise sprUikeR disappears very quickly.
It has to be a campaign from all pilots. Its not just a Qf problem its an industry problem.
For those of you that have a natural inclination to writing good letters:
Please contact us:
Level 2/31 Ebenezer Place, Adelaide
[email protected]
TEL: 08 8232 1144
FAX: 08 8232 3744
Information age means each and everyone of us can hit back. There are more of us than there are of them. Its only takes one anonymous phonecall/email to the SMH and their Geoffrey Thomas Surprise suNrise sprUikeR disappears very quickly.
It has to be a campaign from all pilots. Its not just a Qf problem its an industry problem.
For those of you that have a natural inclination to writing good letters:
Please contact us:
Level 2/31 Ebenezer Place, Adelaide
[email protected]
TEL: 08 8232 1144
FAX: 08 8232 3744
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IMHO executive pay in Australia, and elsewhere, has got way out of control and Qantas historically were responsible for some of the worst excesses. But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies now
Qantas $2.9m (down from $3.6 the previous year)
British Airways $1.5m
Singapore Airlines $1.9m
Cathay Pacific $1.4m
Singair and Cathay are also making decent profits. Maybe QAN_shareholder can explain how AJ is worth a 50 - 100% premium over other better performing CEOs?
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'holic,
Just to reiterate I think Australian CEO salaries are way too high but if you want some figures...
The median remuneration for CEOs of the 20th to 50th largest companies in the ASX was $3.6m in 2010. Yes it is way too high but Qantas is not out of line.
International comparisons are always going to flatter Australian salaries currently due to the exchange rate. I am guessing here but I suspect if you compare average Qantas cabin crew and engineers salaries to British Airways equivalents you might find they are also 50%+ higher (happy to be corrected if I'm wrong). And if you did the same thing with Singapore and Hong Kong I imagine it would be 100%+ higher. If you have figures for pilots translated at current exchange rates I would be interested to see them.
And just in case the rumour resurfaces that Qantas executives are the best paid in the world, Delta's CEO earned over US$8million last year.
These are some figures for CEO remuneration for 2010. They are in $A, and include cash and non-cash payments, bonuses etc :
Qantas $2.9m (down from $3.6 the previous year)
British Airways $1.5m
Singapore Airlines $1.9m
Cathay Pacific $1.4m
Singair and Cathay are also making decent profits. Maybe QAN_shareholder can explain how AJ is worth a 50 - 100% premium over other better performing CEOs?
Qantas $2.9m (down from $3.6 the previous year)
British Airways $1.5m
Singapore Airlines $1.9m
Cathay Pacific $1.4m
Singair and Cathay are also making decent profits. Maybe QAN_shareholder can explain how AJ is worth a 50 - 100% premium over other better performing CEOs?
The median remuneration for CEOs of the 20th to 50th largest companies in the ASX was $3.6m in 2010. Yes it is way too high but Qantas is not out of line.
International comparisons are always going to flatter Australian salaries currently due to the exchange rate. I am guessing here but I suspect if you compare average Qantas cabin crew and engineers salaries to British Airways equivalents you might find they are also 50%+ higher (happy to be corrected if I'm wrong). And if you did the same thing with Singapore and Hong Kong I imagine it would be 100%+ higher. If you have figures for pilots translated at current exchange rates I would be interested to see them.
And just in case the rumour resurfaces that Qantas executives are the best paid in the world, Delta's CEO earned over US$8million last year.
Not that I have any stake in what any Australian commercial pilot is paid, but in all fairness:
Apples with Apples
- What are the minimum hours required, leave entitlements, allowances etc of those international pilots? You don't know? How can you compare?
- What else is included in those overseas EBAs/Contracts/Employment Agreements? You don't know? How can you compare?
- I don't know what line you're in, but if a person in Singapore, doing the same job as you, gets paid less than you, will you automatically take a pay cut? No? You'd like to know more information first?
Apples with Apples
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As they say, you get what you pay for... Certainly true in the case of our pilots and engineers... Worth every cent and some! 
Time and again, they have proven their worth, especially of late, with the amount of incidents we've had.
Not so sure about some of our management "decisions", though... Poor route structure, wrong aircraft, no vision (blinded by their short term KPIs and bonuses!)... and what's our tally, so far, with respect to fines?
Mmmmm? All of a sudden "the buck stops with me" no longer applies, so who is to blame... I know, lets blame it on the workers!
Time and again, they have proven their worth, especially of late, with the amount of incidents we've had.
Not so sure about some of our management "decisions", though... Poor route structure, wrong aircraft, no vision (blinded by their short term KPIs and bonuses!)... and what's our tally, so far, with respect to fines?
Mmmmm? All of a sudden "the buck stops with me" no longer applies, so who is to blame... I know, lets blame it on the workers!
Last edited by assasin8; 9th Aug 2011 at 23:39.
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I attended a Roadshow given by JB a while back (2005?) where he showed us a chart of selected legacy airline's gross salary for Captains. I remember the likes of Lufthansa and BA were at the top, SIA down the bottom and Qantas was almost exactly in the middle. Since that time our pay hasn't kept up with CPI, so unless those other airlines have taken significant pay cuts, I'd imagine we're still near the middle of the pack.
Delta has a fleet of 700+ aircraft and 12000 pilots.
Ok, even if you take 20% off AJs earnings to account for the exchange rate he's still getting paid significantly more than other comparable airline CEOs.
I take it that you think the seniority system promotes mediocrity. I find it amusing that in the very same sentence you find it palatable that a mediocre CEO is not penalised for poor performance.
And just in case the rumour resurfaces that Qantas executives are the best paid in the world, Delta's CEO earned over US$8million last year.
International comparisons are always going to flatter Australian salaries currently due to the exchange rate.
But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies now and frankly the performance related structure (but not the magnitude) of his contract is far more palatable to shareholders than a seniority system.
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QAN_SHAREHOLDER. Technical crew operating costs are in the order of ~3% direct operating costs, obviously +/- a bit here or there between operators. Traditionally QF crew were in the middle of the range globally.
The question you should really be asking management is why they are burning up to 50 tonnes per sector more than the competitors because of poor fleet choices for similar configurations. I think you will find that tech crew costs are a proverbial piss in the bucket compared to what is being wasted out the backend.
You should then ask management about the A380 fuel performance. The following is a summary from the then fuel pilot.
He had been asked directly by senior management why the A380 was not using 30% less fuel per seat compared to the -400. He went on to explain that the A380 was indeed performing close to spec WRT fuel burn. But management kept saying that it wasn't the 30% reduction that Airbus had sold it to be. He then asked about the QF seating config vs the Airbus configuration for the fuel burn figures (QF's 450 vs 650 airbus).
Senior management could not get their heads around the fact that there was essentially a FIXED fuel burn for an empty aircraft, and then a small additional fuel burn per full seat. Management assumed fuel burn was essentially a linear function. In other words if QF had a 650 seat config the fuel burn would indeed be 30% less than the -400, but not in a 450 seat config. This remember is many months after the introduction of the aircraft.
In other words, senior management appear to have ordered an aircraft without the most fundamental understanding of seat configuration vs fuel use. I can only surmise that there was zero in the way of engineering/flight-ops/flight planning input into purchase decision. In essence, management were appear to have had the wool pulled over their eyes by Airbus.
His advise was to give the aircraft to jetstar in a high density configuration if they wanted a 30% fuel reduction per seat mile.
Go ask them about it.
The question you should really be asking management is why they are burning up to 50 tonnes per sector more than the competitors because of poor fleet choices for similar configurations. I think you will find that tech crew costs are a proverbial piss in the bucket compared to what is being wasted out the backend.
You should then ask management about the A380 fuel performance. The following is a summary from the then fuel pilot.
He had been asked directly by senior management why the A380 was not using 30% less fuel per seat compared to the -400. He went on to explain that the A380 was indeed performing close to spec WRT fuel burn. But management kept saying that it wasn't the 30% reduction that Airbus had sold it to be. He then asked about the QF seating config vs the Airbus configuration for the fuel burn figures (QF's 450 vs 650 airbus).
Senior management could not get their heads around the fact that there was essentially a FIXED fuel burn for an empty aircraft, and then a small additional fuel burn per full seat. Management assumed fuel burn was essentially a linear function. In other words if QF had a 650 seat config the fuel burn would indeed be 30% less than the -400, but not in a 450 seat config. This remember is many months after the introduction of the aircraft.
In other words, senior management appear to have ordered an aircraft without the most fundamental understanding of seat configuration vs fuel use. I can only surmise that there was zero in the way of engineering/flight-ops/flight planning input into purchase decision. In essence, management were appear to have had the wool pulled over their eyes by Airbus.
His advise was to give the aircraft to jetstar in a high density configuration if they wanted a 30% fuel reduction per seat mile.
Go ask them about it.
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'holic,
In 2005 the $A bought about 42 pence today it is 65 pence. So all else being equal a Qantas pilot would be getting 55% more in GBP, this undoubtedly has closed a lot of the gap to BA pilots.
AJ is penalised for poor performance - check what it says in the annual report (although if you earn $3m maybe $1m less due to performance isn't that great a penalty). As for seniority, I'm not convinced it is a great system for either employer or employee, danger is that you end up with disenchanted employees that want to leave but can't afford to.
I attended a Roadshow given by JB a while back (2005?) where he showed us a chart of selected legacy airline's gross salary for Captains. I remember the likes of Lufthansa and BA were at the top, SIA down the bottom and Qantas was almost exactly in the middle. Since that time our pay hasn't kept up with CPI, so unless those other airlines have taken significant pay cuts, I'd imagine we're still near the middle of the pack.
I take it that you think the seniority system promotes mediocrity. I find it amusing that in the very same sentence you find it palatable that a mediocre CEO is not penalised for poor performance.