Qantas Pilots, You Are Losing The Battle.
RATspin,
To answer your question, if it does not work, then there is nothing to 'get out of control'. If there is no negotiated outcome, there will be an arbitrated outcome and all players will have to abide by the decision. To not comply with that decision would imply non-protected action. Simply put, there would be no support for such non-protected action. THAT is the lesson of '89.
To answer your question, if it does not work, then there is nothing to 'get out of control'. If there is no negotiated outcome, there will be an arbitrated outcome and all players will have to abide by the decision. To not comply with that decision would imply non-protected action. Simply put, there would be no support for such non-protected action. THAT is the lesson of '89.
obie2 and RATpin do either of you remember the Qantas engineers dispute from 2008?
That was 'Protected Industrial Action'. There were no strikes, not even 48 hour stoppages. As I recall, there were a series of rolling stop work meetings and overtime bans. This cost the company 130 million dollars and eventually an agreement was reached that was much closer to the engineers claim than Dixon's offer.
So PIA far from being:
It is a very serious, last resort, negotiating option that has significant effects on the company and proven results. I am not suggesting it would always be successful or even the best option to take, but to dismiss its seriousness would be very foolish.
That was 'Protected Industrial Action'. There were no strikes, not even 48 hour stoppages. As I recall, there were a series of rolling stop work meetings and overtime bans. This cost the company 130 million dollars and eventually an agreement was reached that was much closer to the engineers claim than Dixon's offer.
So PIA far from being:
ring around the rosy with Joyce and his mates for a few weeks, a little bit of slap and tickle
Last edited by Beer Baron; 5th Jun 2011 at 01:07.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Richmond Tasmania
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"A final point. I have no desire to 'annoy the crap' out of the traveling public and cause mass chaos. I want them to keep flying with us. I want them to keep buying tickets on Qantas. I also want them to know- and those flying with us will know- that unless Qantas pilots are successful in this then passengers in future may not have the experienced Qantas crew on the flight deck they expect to have."
So said Keg...and I agree.
However let's plagiarise that statement but substitute Ansett/Australian for Qantas and you have the same words that we used in 89'!
And what happened there?
So said Keg...and I agree.
However let's plagiarise that statement but substitute Ansett/Australian for Qantas and you have the same words that we used in 89'!
And what happened there?
And what happened there?
You opted out of the government's wage system, you took unprotected industrial action, you had writs issued against you, you resigned and you got crucified for it.
I think your bitterness and fear of '89 has affected your ability to objectively analyse this current situation.
If I was a company stooge, I would be posting exactly this kind of fear statement about '89.
Obie2, I still invite you to make a valid argument in support of your assertion. You have not really added anything to the discussion other than fear or sweeping generalisations based on fluff statements.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
5 Posts
Oldmeadows Axiom: Industrial Action=strike=loss of job.
A discredited theory first posited in the late 20th Century. Used mainly by those seeking to suppress those who really should have worked it out by now.
A discredited theory first posited in the late 20th Century. Used mainly by those seeking to suppress those who really should have worked it out by now.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think Obie2 is still pissed off about 89 and wants others to go through what he's gone through. Either too stupid to see the difference between strike and industrial action or just bitter and wanting everybody else to feel the pain he went through?
I've got international travel coming up with Q, if it's disrupted by legal industrial action then so be it, I support their cause.
Industrial Action does not automatically mean strike. Q's Pilots and Engineers are a pretty clever lot and the action they're taking will not inconvenience the travelling public too much. I reckon I've got a pretty good idea what it's designed to do
And it will work if they stick to it, the part of Q they are targeting are too greedy to see this through, they'll want their bonuses and the only way to get them is by meeting KPI's that are unachievable with out Pilots and Engineers.
I've got international travel coming up with Q, if it's disrupted by legal industrial action then so be it, I support their cause.
Industrial Action does not automatically mean strike. Q's Pilots and Engineers are a pretty clever lot and the action they're taking will not inconvenience the travelling public too much. I reckon I've got a pretty good idea what it's designed to do
And it will work if they stick to it, the part of Q they are targeting are too greedy to see this through, they'll want their bonuses and the only way to get them is by meeting KPI's that are unachievable with out Pilots and Engineers.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mostly at home
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is probably worth pointing out that the hardline attitudes of Government and Business in 1989 to that dispute was not without cost to them. The airlines paid dearly, and the country was thrown into recession with the loss of many jobs and businesses.
I doubt the current Government would be keen for a repeat.
It just shows that honest negotiation is the best way forward (something that appears missing at this point).
N
I doubt the current Government would be keen for a repeat.
It just shows that honest negotiation is the best way forward (something that appears missing at this point).
N
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne, oz
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You don't have to take unprotected industrial action to make a point. The last train driver EBA in Perth was quickly resolved after approximately 300 drivers became ill with a particularly nasty "flu" that resulted in a severe disruption of services on one particular day.
I am an ambulance paramedic who has been screwed over royally by the fact that we cannot take any meaningful industrial action because of the nature of our industry. This severely limits our bargaining clout come EBA time.
You people are in a different position. Play it smart and play it hard.
I , and most of my colleagues who I have spoken to are 100% behind you.
Play it smart and play it hard.
Good luck to you.
I am an ambulance paramedic who has been screwed over royally by the fact that we cannot take any meaningful industrial action because of the nature of our industry. This severely limits our bargaining clout come EBA time.
You people are in a different position. Play it smart and play it hard.
I , and most of my colleagues who I have spoken to are 100% behind you.
Play it smart and play it hard.
Good luck to you.
I understand where you are coming from priapism, but just to be clear, a coordinated sick-out is actually considered industrial action. If that action is not taken within the conditions specified by FWA for protected action, then it is unprotected.
FWIW, Microsoft flight sim was around for almost a decade prior to '89 History of Microsoft Flight Simulator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FWIW, Microsoft flight sim was around for almost a decade prior to '89 History of Microsoft Flight Simulator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
H.Mstr
Yes... if it can be proven that it was coordinated.
A FedEx pal once told me they had staff 'family awareness days' when they needed to apply pressure to their company. That was when they were lower paid than other 'mainstream' airlines; now look where FedEx pilots stand.
Just saying...
A FedEx pal once told me they had staff 'family awareness days' when they needed to apply pressure to their company. That was when they were lower paid than other 'mainstream' airlines; now look where FedEx pilots stand.
Just saying...
Whispering "T" Jet
As a combatant involved in '89 I would like to say that "theheadmaster" and "Qantas_PIA" are 100% correct in their observations.
Even the nature of the dispute between QF pilots and their management bears no resemblance whatsoever to '89.
Beware the QF management trolls on this forum!
Even the nature of the dispute between QF pilots and their management bears no resemblance whatsoever to '89.
Beware the QF management trolls on this forum!
FWIIW
A similarity between now and "89. There was NO STRIKE then just as there will probably be no strike now.
A difference between the two. There was no such thing as protected industrial action then. That is a new invention.
Maui
A similarity between now and "89. There was NO STRIKE then just as there will probably be no strike now.
A difference between the two. There was no such thing as protected industrial action then. That is a new invention.
Maui
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PERTH,AUSTRALIA
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3 Holer,In my limited experience,the management trolls you speak off are most likely the ones blowing warm air up the proverbial and telling you your on the right path.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
Age: 48
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes
on
10 Posts
a coordinated sick-out is actually considered industrial action
As long as there is no recorded evidence of the date of organising it is in my humble words GAME ON!
In response to Full Disclosure I would suggest untouchable if you have a sick note may be a little optimistic. I would thoroughly recommend John Warham's book, the 49ers, about the sacked pilots' decade of court battles after management (some australian) played hardball at Cathay Pacific. You may well have to explain yourselves in considerable detail in front of the judge. Warham is still maintaining that it was not even a sick out! You may win in the end and I hope you do, but go into it with your eyes open.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PERTH,AUSTRALIA
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry guys,as smart as you think you are,QF Management want this fight and that should set off warning bell's(Head Master).
They already have you shooting at shadows.
They already have you shooting at shadows.
Fortunately the industrial climate that QF pilots find themselves at the moment is a little different from the examples above. No need for a 'coincidental' flu epidemic, the approved action will have a similar effect without the risks associated with unprotected action.
My understanding is that QF pilots have been instructed that should action be approved, do only what is directed by AIPA - no rogue actions that might shoot someone in the foot.
My understanding is that QF pilots have been instructed that should action be approved, do only what is directed by AIPA - no rogue actions that might shoot someone in the foot.