Qantas Pilots, You Are Losing The Battle.
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What you are going to have to watch Capt. Kremin, is the minute you start agitating, is that some Senator from the GAFA, that nobody has never heard of, sees the opportunity to make a name for themselves, and stand up in the Upper House, and declare the pilots are a lot of naughty, self indulgent, under worked, spoilt boys. And its game on. Are you ready for that? You will have that bloody woman screeching at you, are you ready for that? Are you ready for the fact that politicans if they think there is any milage to be made out of attacking you, they will, are you ready for that? Just remember that Joyce stood up the minute the carbon tax crap was announced, and stated that QF was happy to be part of it. So he is probably a Labor stooge. Mate, you are about to play with the big boys, be very careful, and hasten slowly, you are going to need all the help you can get, believe me.
TG,
Most of the more senior pilots in Qantas remember 89 well. I feel pretty confident that nothing rash will be done at the commencement of PIA. The ridiculous rubbish fed to the media by QF management already makes me think that they are trying to provoke us into a heated confrontation straight away. Hopefully cool heads will prevail despite the provocation of management.
You may not realise it TG, but your posts are actually making management's job easier by spooking those who may be wavering between their support (or otherwise) of AIPA. To me, this is a watershed for Australian airline jobs. If AIPA loses, well-paid aviation jobs in this country are gone forever!!
Most of the more senior pilots in Qantas remember 89 well. I feel pretty confident that nothing rash will be done at the commencement of PIA. The ridiculous rubbish fed to the media by QF management already makes me think that they are trying to provoke us into a heated confrontation straight away. Hopefully cool heads will prevail despite the provocation of management.
You may not realise it TG, but your posts are actually making management's job easier by spooking those who may be wavering between their support (or otherwise) of AIPA. To me, this is a watershed for Australian airline jobs. If AIPA loses, well-paid aviation jobs in this country are gone forever!!
TG, I invite you to expand on your thoughts. You have told us that you think the Labor Party will crucify the pilots again, without really explaining why you think so. You think the Liberals will be more supportive of the pilots cause, yet they produced 'work choices' and Abbot has publicly stated he does not care if Australian jobs go off-shore, as long as an Australian company can make a profit doing so.
It appears to me that you are drawing parallels to this situation and 1989. I invite you to explain why you think there will be the same or similar outcome. A real explanation, not just motherhood statements like 'it is game on'. The only real similarity I can see is that the dispute involves pilots. The differences I see, however, are:
The pilots in 1989 decided to opt out of the wage fixing system and had effectively declared war against both the airlines and the government. The QF pilots now are seeking Protected Industrial Action as a legitimate and authorised negotiating tool that is within the government's industrial relations system. It is not a declaration of war on the government of the day, it is working completely within the system.
In 1989, the actions the pilots took was effectively illegal and exposed them to liability for the damages caused. In an attempt to extinguish this liability they resigned. Action being contemplated by QF pilots now is legal and protects them from civil liability.
The way the pilots and companies and government handled the 1989 dispute was in a 'high stakes' or 'brinkmanship' manner (eg issuing writs by the company, pilots resigning, government directly assisting business with military). Fair Work Australia will remove approval for action if there is significant damage to either party, or to any third party. This ensures that any action is measured, appropriate, and does not lead to the high stakes game of 1989.
Politics and personalities. Related to my first point, but here talking about the personal egos at stake. Hawke had bet his political reputation on his ability to get unions to cooperate and contain wages growth. I believe there was some personal animosity between Hawke and the AFAP. Hawke and Peter Abels were personal friends with speculation about what favours Hawke might owe to Abels. When the pilots decided they did not want to comply with the IR policy, they turned things in to a personal battle with the government and with Hawke. Once again, the QF pilots are not wanting to opt out of the governments IR system, they are acting completely within it. There is no battle with government policy, in fact the central issue is keeping job security, which sits within the intent of the Qantas Sales Act.
In short, I see that AIPA has learned the lessons of 1989, as none of the contributing factors of that debacle appear to be a factor now. Those that are scare mongering about the current proposed action have yet to convincingly argue the similarities between 1989 and now, and have yet to convincingly argue why they think there may be a similar outcome.
It appears to me that you are drawing parallels to this situation and 1989. I invite you to explain why you think there will be the same or similar outcome. A real explanation, not just motherhood statements like 'it is game on'. The only real similarity I can see is that the dispute involves pilots. The differences I see, however, are:
The pilots in 1989 decided to opt out of the wage fixing system and had effectively declared war against both the airlines and the government. The QF pilots now are seeking Protected Industrial Action as a legitimate and authorised negotiating tool that is within the government's industrial relations system. It is not a declaration of war on the government of the day, it is working completely within the system.
In 1989, the actions the pilots took was effectively illegal and exposed them to liability for the damages caused. In an attempt to extinguish this liability they resigned. Action being contemplated by QF pilots now is legal and protects them from civil liability.
The way the pilots and companies and government handled the 1989 dispute was in a 'high stakes' or 'brinkmanship' manner (eg issuing writs by the company, pilots resigning, government directly assisting business with military). Fair Work Australia will remove approval for action if there is significant damage to either party, or to any third party. This ensures that any action is measured, appropriate, and does not lead to the high stakes game of 1989.
Politics and personalities. Related to my first point, but here talking about the personal egos at stake. Hawke had bet his political reputation on his ability to get unions to cooperate and contain wages growth. I believe there was some personal animosity between Hawke and the AFAP. Hawke and Peter Abels were personal friends with speculation about what favours Hawke might owe to Abels. When the pilots decided they did not want to comply with the IR policy, they turned things in to a personal battle with the government and with Hawke. Once again, the QF pilots are not wanting to opt out of the governments IR system, they are acting completely within it. There is no battle with government policy, in fact the central issue is keeping job security, which sits within the intent of the Qantas Sales Act.
In short, I see that AIPA has learned the lessons of 1989, as none of the contributing factors of that debacle appear to be a factor now. Those that are scare mongering about the current proposed action have yet to convincingly argue the similarities between 1989 and now, and have yet to convincingly argue why they think there may be a similar outcome.
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You blokes live in Disneyland you seriously do. You have as much experience of disputes as we did. None. If you blokes were wharfies you can be all most certain that the current govt. will bat for you. Your not. As is I stated before you are seen as elitists, capitalists, spoilt, over indulged, it does not matter if you are in hock up to your ears, and live in a caravan, that is how you are perceived. The old Labor Party stood for the worker, Airline Pilots are not workers, not in their eyes. You are just as big a lot of babes in the wood as we were, make a choice, grow up and realise you are going to be hammered. How you survive it is up to you, what you get out of it is up to you, but this kidding yourselves of how much more in control of the situation you are then we were is bull****. How the hell do you know what is going to happen, once its game on, you obviously have insight that we were never privy to, but somehow I doubt it. Go for what you think is right, but realise what you are going into and get the right people on side. The Murdoch press has indicated it will support you, where are the stories that should be out in front of the public right now? All you are doing is ducking and weaving and making little its not fair noises, whilst Joyce is marshalling the troops, aka the Govt. I know the AIPA is waiting for the polls to come in, but use the time to your advantage, get it out there. I am not for one minute suggesting that your dispute is going to end up like ours, its not, no group of pilots could ever be that dumb again, its probably going to end up with just a lot of froth and bubble, with both sides giving a little bit and neither side getting what it wants, and it will simply grumble on, that is the most likely outcome, but escalation is your main worry, and that boils down to how much Joyce wants to screw you, or vice vercer. Nobody disputes you don't have a cause, you have every right to be feckin angry, but how you handle it is the big question. We watch with interest.
TG, how are QF pilots going to be 'hammered' by the government and why? I see you are quite passionate, but offer no real argument.
QF pilots are voting on action that is within the approved and legal industrial relations framework. Taking PIA is even considered to be part of negotiating in good faith.
What sort of milage is to be gained by the government for 'hammering' QF pilots for legitimately acting within the system and asking for less than the government is offering its public servants, who I might add are in about the same place in their pay negotiations as QF pilots are (ie they are considering PIA)?
BTW, I do not consider a few 'fluff words' in interviews or question time to equate to being 'hammered'.
QF pilots are voting on action that is within the approved and legal industrial relations framework. Taking PIA is even considered to be part of negotiating in good faith.
What sort of milage is to be gained by the government for 'hammering' QF pilots for legitimately acting within the system and asking for less than the government is offering its public servants, who I might add are in about the same place in their pay negotiations as QF pilots are (ie they are considering PIA)?
BTW, I do not consider a few 'fluff words' in interviews or question time to equate to being 'hammered'.
Last edited by theheadmaster; 2nd Jun 2011 at 02:43.
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Word is slowly getting through that this is about Australian Pilots flying QANTAS aircraft, rather than some nefarious demand for job security.
Considering that the holy grail of cheap politiking in this country is about being seen to be as pro-Australian as possible; There isn't a Politician in the country that would want to be publicly siding in this dispute. (ie. Do they hate an Australian icon or do they hate Australian employees.)
The longer that this goes on, the worse AJ looks. I'd bet London to a brick that a PIA will see him leave due to "health reasons".
Considering that the holy grail of cheap politiking in this country is about being seen to be as pro-Australian as possible; There isn't a Politician in the country that would want to be publicly siding in this dispute. (ie. Do they hate an Australian icon or do they hate Australian employees.)
The longer that this goes on, the worse AJ looks. I'd bet London to a brick that a PIA will see him leave due to "health reasons".
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TG. The thing is if we do nothing I and many others will not have a career here at this once great company in a few years time. Like others have said what do you suggest? To you and any other fear mongers out there you need to understand that many of us see no future in QF if we continue on our current award and management continue their current theme. That’s why this is nothing like ’89 - we feel have nothing to lose. I would rather fight now to make sure we have good future in our current job. If we lose I will get out by retraining in another career or buggering off to another carrier (not Jetstar) while I still am relatively young. This is a much better outcome then wasting another 5-10 years in the current toxic, stressful environment that is Qantas only to then be made redundant as I reach the bottom of the list. I know many people I work with feel the same way. So best best case we (pilots and other unions) are successful in our claims and the current management and their terrible strategies are seen for what they are, they are removed, in come people who know what they are doing and we can all work together to build this airline back to what it used to be (wishful thinking I know). 2nd best case we are successful and still have a relatively good long career at Qantas. Worst case we lose and I honestly don’t feel we will be any worse off than we are now (our flying will continue to be auctioned off to the lowest bidder, be it Jetconnect, Jetstar, Express Freighters, Qantas Asia etc). So that’s where it’s at. We want to keep out jobs and out of that will come the result that when a member of the public buys a Qantas ticket on a Qantas aeroplane they will get the appropriately trained Qantas pilots that they always expect to have at the controls. From this will flow the obvious safety benefits from using people with more experience etc. We are going to have a crack and let the chips fall where they may.
Got a better suggestion?
PS Re the title of this thread.
From all reports and video articles such as on Hungry Beast, I am not convinced the title of this thread is correct at all.
Remain unified all and we will be successful!
Join facebook group and/or community ‘Qantas PIA’ for other info.
Got a better suggestion?
PS Re the title of this thread.
From all reports and video articles such as on Hungry Beast, I am not convinced the title of this thread is correct at all.
Remain unified all and we will be successful!
Join facebook group and/or community ‘Qantas PIA’ for other info.
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I think people do get it TG. No-one could say your heart is not in the right place or that you don't have the best of intentions.
However pilots can be perceived as having a white collar wage and a blue collar contract, combining the best of both. This makes for few natural allies.
However pilots can be perceived as having a white collar wage and a blue collar contract, combining the best of both. This makes for few natural allies.
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TG, I know you speak from the heart, but so do the QF pilots on this forum.
We saw what happened in 89. Many current QF pilots were involved and they share their experiences with other pilots on places like Qrewroom.
We know that the Company will come after us in some form or another.
They may try to escalate the dispute... all we can do is react appropriately.
But you appear to be saying that doing nothing; suffering death by a thousand cuts, is better than drawing a line in the sand.
You appear to be saying this on the experience of 22 years ago, when the situation and laws were very different.
Many groups have carried out industrial action during the intervening period without suffering the fate you did.
So what makes pilots a special case to be singled out for radical attention this time? The Government would have to be 100% on board with the airline. So far I have seen no hint of that.
If Julia Gillard goes on Sunrise and start making noises like, "If the pilots want a war then its war they will get...!" then I will be the first on the phone to Barry saying we need to re-think this.
I told you what AIPA wouldn't be doing. I would not tell you on this forum what we will be doing even if I knew the details for obvious reasons.
If you have a better course of action, I am all ears. But don't tell us to do nothing. Nothing is no longer an option. Nothing will see the death of the careers of hundreds and hundreds of pilots.
Over to you.
We saw what happened in 89. Many current QF pilots were involved and they share their experiences with other pilots on places like Qrewroom.
We know that the Company will come after us in some form or another.
They may try to escalate the dispute... all we can do is react appropriately.
But you appear to be saying that doing nothing; suffering death by a thousand cuts, is better than drawing a line in the sand.
You appear to be saying this on the experience of 22 years ago, when the situation and laws were very different.
Many groups have carried out industrial action during the intervening period without suffering the fate you did.
So what makes pilots a special case to be singled out for radical attention this time? The Government would have to be 100% on board with the airline. So far I have seen no hint of that.
If Julia Gillard goes on Sunrise and start making noises like, "If the pilots want a war then its war they will get...!" then I will be the first on the phone to Barry saying we need to re-think this.
I told you what AIPA wouldn't be doing. I would not tell you on this forum what we will be doing even if I knew the details for obvious reasons.
If you have a better course of action, I am all ears. But don't tell us to do nothing. Nothing is no longer an option. Nothing will see the death of the careers of hundreds and hundreds of pilots.
Over to you.
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Capt Kremin,
I didn't think you Qantas pilots were involved in 1989. There are posters on this forum who criticise you for not getting involved. It can't be both. How were you involved?
I didn't think you Qantas pilots were involved in 1989. There are posters on this forum who criticise you for not getting involved. It can't be both. How were you involved?
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Its all information sharing regardless of which side you see it from. The man is taking the time to offer his bit I say encourage him to post. You never know what you might pick up from him.
Nunc est bibendum
A lot of the guys and gals in QF 'Q' list (longhaul at the time) with start dates from late '89 through until late '90 are people who had resigned in the dispute. They have some interesting insights into the goings on.
We have a few former Australian Airlines pilots who either didn't resign or returned prior to whatever the date is that AFAP said was OK to go back. They're mostly on the 737 with a handful on the A330 and a couple on the 767.
Either way, QF and AIPA wasn't involved in '89 but that doesn't mean that we don't have some insight and experience with what happened. As many have pointed out, it's a very different situation now but that's not to say that we're not cognisant of the lessons of '89.
We have a few former Australian Airlines pilots who either didn't resign or returned prior to whatever the date is that AFAP said was OK to go back. They're mostly on the 737 with a handful on the A330 and a couple on the 767.
Either way, QF and AIPA wasn't involved in '89 but that doesn't mean that we don't have some insight and experience with what happened. As many have pointed out, it's a very different situation now but that's not to say that we're not cognisant of the lessons of '89.
Hat, I don't think anyone is trying to discourage TG from posting. It looks like he is posting 'the sky is falling' message, but not backing it up with any rational argument. If there is a rational, logical argument in support of the fears, I would be glad to hear it. The 'I was there in 89' statement does not really help or support the fears unless there are some valid parallels or conclusions that can be put forward in support. Some here have provided what they see as key differences in the two situations and the response is 'you don't get it'.
TG, or anyone who has legitimate concerns, please post them. All I am asking, however, is to offer a convincing argument.
TG, or anyone who has legitimate concerns, please post them. All I am asking, however, is to offer a convincing argument.
Nunc est bibendum
It's also important to point out that AIPA is not ignorant to the political aspect and efforts have been made in this area. I'm sure most will understand if I don't go into detail.
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What is a Pilot worth???
How is a Pilots worth measured??
How much revenue does a pilot produce?
What level of skill does a Pilot posses compared to "other" professions?
Why are some Pilots paid more than others doing the same job??? i.e Why do Qantas Captains get paid more than Jetstar Captains?
You are fighting against the shareholders represented by the CEO. You are fighting against their efforts to lower costs and increase profits.
How is a Pilots worth measured??
How much revenue does a pilot produce?
What level of skill does a Pilot posses compared to "other" professions?
Why are some Pilots paid more than others doing the same job??? i.e Why do Qantas Captains get paid more than Jetstar Captains?
You are fighting against the shareholders represented by the CEO. You are fighting against their efforts to lower costs and increase profits.
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Here's my two cents worth!
Keep your hats on guys, stay cool.
89 was not a pleasant place to be, nothing can be taken for granted when talk of industrial action is mentioned.
The time to have protected your QF jobs and careers was when JS first started up, when action would have been effective.
Too late now.
Whatever happens it is highly possible that we are heading for a perfect storm!
The global economy is on the brink of collapse.
My theme all along has been "get yourself out of debt".
Just beware, that's all I say!
Keep your hats on guys, stay cool.
89 was not a pleasant place to be, nothing can be taken for granted when talk of industrial action is mentioned.
The time to have protected your QF jobs and careers was when JS first started up, when action would have been effective.
Too late now.
Whatever happens it is highly possible that we are heading for a perfect storm!
The global economy is on the brink of collapse.
My theme all along has been "get yourself out of debt".
Just beware, that's all I say!