CO2 hysteria to raise airfare costs to Europe
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Which of the following is relevant to global warming and which is irrelevant:
1. Litres of fuel consumed per passenger per 100 km; or
2. Litres of fuel consumed by the industry in total.
LCCs are responsible for a rapid increase in fuel consumed by the industry. More planes flying.
The answer will eventually be biofuel, but the aviation industry should not be unfairly targeted for two reasons:
1. It only consumes 2% of global consumption; and
2. Unlike many other industries, alternative fuels or sources of energy cannot power aircraft.
For example, we can use wind or solar power to make hydrogen to power a car, but it cannot power an aircraft. We should direct attention to industries where solutions exist.
Aircraft seem to be easy targets because they are visible and obvious. We see them every day with those huge engines screaming and guzzling fuel. But that's just psychological. What about shipping? About 30% of global consumption I have heard. This is-called economic principle of "globalisation" is responsible for a rapid increase in shipping and associated fuel consumption.
1. Litres of fuel consumed per passenger per 100 km; or
2. Litres of fuel consumed by the industry in total.
LCCs are responsible for a rapid increase in fuel consumed by the industry. More planes flying.
The answer will eventually be biofuel, but the aviation industry should not be unfairly targeted for two reasons:
1. It only consumes 2% of global consumption; and
2. Unlike many other industries, alternative fuels or sources of energy cannot power aircraft.
For example, we can use wind or solar power to make hydrogen to power a car, but it cannot power an aircraft. We should direct attention to industries where solutions exist.
Aircraft seem to be easy targets because they are visible and obvious. We see them every day with those huge engines screaming and guzzling fuel. But that's just psychological. What about shipping? About 30% of global consumption I have heard. This is-called economic principle of "globalisation" is responsible for a rapid increase in shipping and associated fuel consumption.
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It takes 12 tonnes of carbon and 32 tonnes of oxygen to produce 44 tonnes of CO2. To my senile brain $40 a tonne equates to a tax of $146.76, which suggests to me this is where that Christine Milne of The Greens, gets her amount of $120.00 (she is being generous) which she throws around when Gillard is not around. South of $40 is chicken feed if this is the case, and we can all look forward to many more little add ons over the time. Until the next election anyway.
Thread Starter
via flyingfox:
Flying Binghi. I personally prefer the term 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change'. IYHO this makes me lack a basic understanding of the climate debate. You can never be denied the right to hold an opinion! However the pedantics of the debate over which term should be used is of no concern to me. Neither of them is adequate or exclusive of the other.
As for your reference to the fact that the earth has been warming since the last ice-age, I commend you for your knowledge. The science of 'climate change / global warming' (take your pick) is about the size of the acceleration and overshoot of this phenomonen beyond the normal 'peak', due to human activities. Right now we are approaching the time of the cycles anticipated peak but no slowing is evident. Some models suggest the overshoot may be irreversible and catastrophic.
I am not being contradictory or trying to stop any debate in this thread. Without new technologies aviation will suffer greatly from restrictions brought about by world governments and their decisions about these issues. My objection is to the notion, as the thread title suggests, that this science is purely 'CO2 hysteria' without good and quantitative evidence supporting it.
Flying Binghi. I personally prefer the term 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change'. IYHO this makes me lack a basic understanding of the climate debate. You can never be denied the right to hold an opinion! However the pedantics of the debate over which term should be used is of no concern to me. Neither of them is adequate or exclusive of the other.
As for your reference to the fact that the earth has been warming since the last ice-age, I commend you for your knowledge. The science of 'climate change / global warming' (take your pick) is about the size of the acceleration and overshoot of this phenomonen beyond the normal 'peak', due to human activities. Right now we are approaching the time of the cycles anticipated peak but no slowing is evident. Some models suggest the overshoot may be irreversible and catastrophic.
I am not being contradictory or trying to stop any debate in this thread. Without new technologies aviation will suffer greatly from restrictions brought about by world governments and their decisions about these issues. My objection is to the notion, as the thread title suggests, that this science is purely 'CO2 hysteria' without good and quantitative evidence supporting it.
flyingfox, is that what the infamous hocky stick graph and the climate models are trying to proove ?
"...My objection is to the notion, as the thread title suggests, that this science is purely 'CO2 hysteria' without good and quantitative evidence supporting it..."
flyingfox, i'd be interested to see any "quantitive evidence" you might have.
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Thread Starter
"Canadian airlines have joined the fight opposing the European Union’s plan to include the aviation industry in its emissions trading plan at the start of next year.
Under terms of the EU strategy, any airline flying in or out of Europe would be forced to buy carbon permits for 15% of their emissions based on 2010 levels. They would also be required to reduce their carbon dioxide emissions by 3% in 2012, and by 5% from 2013 onward, based on their average emissions between 2004 and 2006.
The National Airlines Council of Canada, which represents the country’s largest carriers, including Air Canada and Air Transat, has lent its support to a legal challenge being mounted against the plan, which will be heard by the EU’s high court in Luxembourg Tuesday..."
Canada’s airlines fight EU carbon tax | Transportation | Financial Post
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Under terms of the EU strategy, any airline flying in or out of Europe would be forced to buy carbon permits for 15% of their emissions based on 2010 levels. They would also be required to reduce their carbon dioxide emissions by 3% in 2012, and by 5% from 2013 onward, based on their average emissions between 2004 and 2006.
The National Airlines Council of Canada, which represents the country’s largest carriers, including Air Canada and Air Transat, has lent its support to a legal challenge being mounted against the plan, which will be heard by the EU’s high court in Luxembourg Tuesday..."
Canada’s airlines fight EU carbon tax | Transportation | Financial Post
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Eh who cares?
I'll happily pay few extra bucks in tax to fly into the EU then pay a few extra bucks on everything back home... I'll pay a carbon tax when the US, china and India introduce one...
As an Australian I find it funny that so many of us are so naive to think the rest of the world cares one little bit about what we do or think.. We have no influence.... Nothing what so ever...
However, wait for JQ to start a new base in some obscure European country, employ locals on $1 a day and start flying back to Aus.. You heard it here first..
I'll happily pay few extra bucks in tax to fly into the EU then pay a few extra bucks on everything back home... I'll pay a carbon tax when the US, china and India introduce one...
As an Australian I find it funny that so many of us are so naive to think the rest of the world cares one little bit about what we do or think.. We have no influence.... Nothing what so ever...
However, wait for JQ to start a new base in some obscure European country, employ locals on $1 a day and start flying back to Aus.. You heard it here first..
Thread Starter
Eh who cares?
"The European Court of Justice is set to hold its first hearing today on the legality of the European Union's emissions trading plan for the airline industry. The Air Transport Association and several of its American member airlines are suing to overturn it. If they succeed, the first and only legally binding legislation to curb climate forcing greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from air transport will be grounded at the gate...
...while not formally joining the lawsuit, several governments -- most notably the U.S. and China -- have begun to cry foul. ...and China is reported to have delayed a $4 billion deal to purchase 10 Airbus A380 jets out of protest..."
Kelly Rigg: Aviation Industry on Trial: The Dark Arts of Climate Obstructionism
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Thread Starter
China understands what its all about..
China: We want to *receive* climate swindle cash, not *cough up* climate swindle cash
via tomnelson.bl*og*sp*ot.com
"A European Union plan to include all airlines flying to Europe in the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) from next year is unfair and contrary to global efforts to fight climate change, China’s state-run Xinhua news agency said on Tuesday...
...Xinhua, whose commentaries are a reflection of government thinking on major issues or controversies, said the scheme had been ill-thought out.
“In the name of dealing with climate change, the EU’s approach will generate enormous financial benefits at the expense of the rest of the world, including developing countries,” it said in an English-language commentary .
“Studies show that the extra costs of the EU’s plan will amount to $1.6 billion dollars in the first year alone. The direction of the cash flow is contrary to the spirit of the agreements reached at the UN Cancun climate change conference last year.”..."
China commentary slams EU airline CO2 scheme | Eco-Business
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China: We want to *receive* climate swindle cash, not *cough up* climate swindle cash
via tomnelson.bl*og*sp*ot.com
"A European Union plan to include all airlines flying to Europe in the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) from next year is unfair and contrary to global efforts to fight climate change, China’s state-run Xinhua news agency said on Tuesday...
...Xinhua, whose commentaries are a reflection of government thinking on major issues or controversies, said the scheme had been ill-thought out.
“In the name of dealing with climate change, the EU’s approach will generate enormous financial benefits at the expense of the rest of the world, including developing countries,” it said in an English-language commentary .
“Studies show that the extra costs of the EU’s plan will amount to $1.6 billion dollars in the first year alone. The direction of the cash flow is contrary to the spirit of the agreements reached at the UN Cancun climate change conference last year.”..."
China commentary slams EU airline CO2 scheme | Eco-Business
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Nice Summary, but a bit dodgy in places.
blow.n.gasket
What you missed is the fact that the Earth has an elliptical orbit and gets closer to the sun and further away in an annual cycle
In the Southern Hemisphere our summer coincides with earth's closest approach to the sun. Winter coincides with furthest away from the sun.
The Northern hemisphere is the opposite so Northern weather and climate is way reduced in range compared to Southern.
If you look at the solar 'forcings' in the Southern hemisphere they way exceed any CO2 forcings by order of magnitude - and that's over millenia scale.
So for an objective view check out Southern Hemisphere climate and weather changes and see whether that is anything to worry about (Melbourne excepted
)
What you missed is the fact that the Earth has an elliptical orbit and gets closer to the sun and further away in an annual cycle
In the Southern Hemisphere our summer coincides with earth's closest approach to the sun. Winter coincides with furthest away from the sun.
The Northern hemisphere is the opposite so Northern weather and climate is way reduced in range compared to Southern.
If you look at the solar 'forcings' in the Southern hemisphere they way exceed any CO2 forcings by order of magnitude - and that's over millenia scale.
So for an objective view check out Southern Hemisphere climate and weather changes and see whether that is anything to worry about (Melbourne excepted
)
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As the EU Carbon Trading tax (a capricious tax) is to be levied based upon the carbon emissions from the flights originating point, even though that place could be many thousands of miles distant from ‘Europe’, I propose that the Australian Government extend their ‘Flood Levy’ tax (another capricious tax) to all Europeans visiting Australia. Of course those European residents living farther west of Istanbul would need to pay a greater tax on a sliding scale, for the very same reasons that the EU propose to tax activities outside of their area of governance. ‘Fares, fair’ (pun intended)
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Trent, thats brilliant!! 
Ive been fascinated at this whole bizarre ETS scheme, and our 'wonderful' APD here in the UK which is also allegedly to help reduce emissions, and of which zero revenue is directed specifically to reducing emissions etc
What I cant understand is how SO many people in the EU think ETS can work when its not a globally agreed and managed system - I can only think there is some kind of collective myopic contagion effect causing this... ( the 'Hedegaard" effect maybe?)
What would be a lot more useful perhaps is unilateral Government support and initiatives to get the cost of producing sustainable/renewable (aviation) fuel down to levels which make it viable. Taxing airlines with ETS/APD etc is actually preventing airlines from having the cash to invest in the technology and testing thats needed.
I know there are some interesting developments happening, such as the new algae based fuel farms in Oz, and the US Govts biomass plans, and LH and KL biofuel flight tests - but its not enough to make a difference yet.
I'd also love to know where the money from carbon offsetting actually goes...no doubt one day we will hear that the cash is being siphoned off in the countires where its allocated for tree planting etc.....
Ive been fascinated at this whole bizarre ETS scheme, and our 'wonderful' APD here in the UK which is also allegedly to help reduce emissions, and of which zero revenue is directed specifically to reducing emissions etc
What I cant understand is how SO many people in the EU think ETS can work when its not a globally agreed and managed system - I can only think there is some kind of collective myopic contagion effect causing this... ( the 'Hedegaard" effect maybe?)
What would be a lot more useful perhaps is unilateral Government support and initiatives to get the cost of producing sustainable/renewable (aviation) fuel down to levels which make it viable. Taxing airlines with ETS/APD etc is actually preventing airlines from having the cash to invest in the technology and testing thats needed.
I know there are some interesting developments happening, such as the new algae based fuel farms in Oz, and the US Govts biomass plans, and LH and KL biofuel flight tests - but its not enough to make a difference yet.
I'd also love to know where the money from carbon offsetting actually goes...no doubt one day we will hear that the cash is being siphoned off in the countires where its allocated for tree planting etc.....
Thread Starter
The Battle starts...
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China plans to boycott a new European Union tax on airline carbon emissions, becoming the latest in a line of countries to challenge the law.
Who will win. China or the global warming muppets ?..
China set to boycott EU carbon tax - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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China plans to boycott a new European Union tax on airline carbon emissions, becoming the latest in a line of countries to challenge the law.
Who will win. China or the global warming muppets ?..
China set to boycott EU carbon tax - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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Sprucegoose
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I'd also love to know where the money from carbon offsetting actually goes...no doubt one day we will hear that the cash is being siphoned off in the countires where its allocated for tree planting etc.....
Thread Starter
Some interesting reading here.
F.Nose, some interesting reading indeed..
Very interesting the bit "...the process of producing IPCC reports, which reference thousands of scientific papers. The reports are thoughly reviewed to make sure that the scientific work included is relevant and diverse..." ...
Suggested research fer those who are new to the global warming subject would be to look at 'climate gate' which covers the IPCC and climate scientist corruption of science.
For further reading about the global warming scam in general can i recomend Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change
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Some interesting reading here, too
When Your Paycheque Depends on a Climate Crisis « NoFrakkingConsensus
"In other words, there is now a small – perhaps even middling-sized – army of people around the world whose economic lives depend on the rest of us believing that climate catastrophe is just around the corner. If we were to liberate ourselves from climate fear and anxiety they’d all be out of work. Their travel to exotic places, their moments in the media spotlight – and a significant portion of their self-identities – would all disappear."
Something tells me there`s a lot more AGW apparatchiks being paid by "Big Carbon" than there are sceptics paid by "Big Oil"...and Big Al has made just a little pocket money himself out of this construct, I hear...
When Your Paycheque Depends on a Climate Crisis « NoFrakkingConsensus
"In other words, there is now a small – perhaps even middling-sized – army of people around the world whose economic lives depend on the rest of us believing that climate catastrophe is just around the corner. If we were to liberate ourselves from climate fear and anxiety they’d all be out of work. Their travel to exotic places, their moments in the media spotlight – and a significant portion of their self-identities – would all disappear."
Something tells me there`s a lot more AGW apparatchiks being paid by "Big Carbon" than there are sceptics paid by "Big Oil"...and Big Al has made just a little pocket money himself out of this construct, I hear...
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But Julia said that responsible companies would absorb any
cost of carbon tax, not pass it on to consumers..
cost of carbon tax, not pass it on to consumers..
Thread Starter
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Wonder what the Oz Prime Muppet thinks of this...
"China will take swift counter-measures that could include impounding European aircraft if the EU punishes Chinese airlines for not complying with its scheme to curb carbon emissions, the China Air Transport Association said on Tuesday.
The warning came as the U.N.'s aviation body expressed concern about the growing threat of bilateral reprisals.
Chinese airlines, which have been told by Beijing not to comply with the European Union's Emissions Trading Scheme, refused to meet a March 31 deadline for submitting carbon emissions data..."
China ready to impound EU planes in CO2 dispute | Reuters
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Wonder what the Oz Prime Muppet thinks of this...
"China will take swift counter-measures that could include impounding European aircraft if the EU punishes Chinese airlines for not complying with its scheme to curb carbon emissions, the China Air Transport Association said on Tuesday.
The warning came as the U.N.'s aviation body expressed concern about the growing threat of bilateral reprisals.
Chinese airlines, which have been told by Beijing not to comply with the European Union's Emissions Trading Scheme, refused to meet a March 31 deadline for submitting carbon emissions data..."
China ready to impound EU planes in CO2 dispute | Reuters
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Just incredible that the Droner from Altona, plus the maniacal Greens really believe they can control the earths climate from Parliament House CBR. It just gives me the total 
. Our Lions Club mob have set up a deal with some large companies to get any broken or nearly used by date food, for the pensioners around here. We sell everything for a $1.50 per kilo, that includes packaged and bottled groceries. The word has spread, but they have to show a pension card, to get the goodies. We have already had to chase the bums away that don't and won't work. As one old dear said to me the other day its like be back in the war. Freckin ridiculous that we even have to do it, but there is no other way for these good old people to eat properly, and they are the backbone of the country, and its going to get worse. What a bunch of tossers.
. Our Lions Club mob have set up a deal with some large companies to get any broken or nearly used by date food, for the pensioners around here. We sell everything for a $1.50 per kilo, that includes packaged and bottled groceries. The word has spread, but they have to show a pension card, to get the goodies. We have already had to chase the bums away that don't and won't work. As one old dear said to me the other day its like be back in the war. Freckin ridiculous that we even have to do it, but there is no other way for these good old people to eat properly, and they are the backbone of the country, and its going to get worse. What a bunch of tossers.