New JQ Contract
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hortsville
Age: 46
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JQ pilots
Short of walking off the job (which is illegal and prosecutable by dismissal in Australia), what do you propose to do Gnandenburg? Any change in work pattern from the norm can be construed as industrial action (if you had ever bothered to look it up).
If you are referring to working within the confines of the EBA and not showing good will - i think you'll find that's well and truly underway - although nobody would put it on the record.
If you have so many great ideas maybe you could help out by contacting AFAP/AIPA. That is if you are seriously interested in helping out this war on our profession. If you are just sitting bored with nothing to do and feel like taking a cheap shot on PPrune, then quite frankly I know most of the JQ guys would tell you where to go! Theres enough stress on these guys and their families for you to throw your idle time at them too!
I know the JQ boys are doing whatever they can within the realms of legality and WELL DONE GUYS AND GIRLS!
To anyone who is thinking of signing up on the this new agreement - from what I've heard you will be well and truly feeling left out in the cold after you start.
If you are referring to working within the confines of the EBA and not showing good will - i think you'll find that's well and truly underway - although nobody would put it on the record.
If you have so many great ideas maybe you could help out by contacting AFAP/AIPA. That is if you are seriously interested in helping out this war on our profession. If you are just sitting bored with nothing to do and feel like taking a cheap shot on PPrune, then quite frankly I know most of the JQ guys would tell you where to go! Theres enough stress on these guys and their families for you to throw your idle time at them too!
I know the JQ boys are doing whatever they can within the realms of legality and WELL DONE GUYS AND GIRLS!
To anyone who is thinking of signing up on the this new agreement - from what I've heard you will be well and truly feeling left out in the cold after you start.
Angry pilots battle Jetstar: Court action and protests over new contracts
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer From: The Australian May 20, 2011 12:00AM
PILOT angst has hit new highs at low-cost carrier Jetstar over a new contract that group executive Bruce Buchanan insists is essential to the company's ability to grow.
The Jetstar Pilots Council has taken the unusual step of writing directly to all Qantas board members, while the Australian Federation of Air Pilots has launched Federal Court action and the Australian and International Pilots Association is taking the issue to Fair Work Australia today.
"We've prepared a brief on that and the previous contract and the behaviour of the company towards these cadet pilots," AIPA spokesman Richard Woodward said yesterday. "So we're going ahead with that meeting and we intend to follow up with some meetings with appropriate political people to reinforce the fact that we think they're circumventing Australian workplace laws."
AFAP executive director Terry O'Connell said the federation's claim related to a breach of the existing award "in three or four areas" and it would be seeking immediate relief at a Federal Court directions hearing on June 10.
Mr O'Connell said the union's intention was to get Jetstar management to rethink its position and employ pilots on the enterprise bargaining agreement to which it had been a willing party.
He said that agreement was supposed to herald a new era of co-operation and parties working together in collective sense.
"Unfortunately, it hasn't transpired -- on the basis of these latest actions," Mr O'Connell said.
The pilots are incensed by airline moves to put new hires of junior officers on a group contract outside the enterprise agreement. That guarantees employment for just 600 hours instead of the 800-plus Jetstar pilots generally work. AIPA says the contract allows the company to move new hires to any base in its network and could see them on standby for 12 days a month.
More than 300 pilots have emailed management expressing their alarm and raising fears about the impact of the anger and unrest on the carrier's safety culture and their sense of betrayal. The company's decision to sack pilot Joe Eakins for airing his grievances about the company in the media has made Jetstar pilots reluctant to speak publicly. But, behind the scenes, many are seething.
"I am honestly concerned that safety is not the focus in this company's management, but money and the managers' KPIs (key performance indicators)," said one veteran pilot. "As you must be aware, many aircraft accidents worldwide have been attributed to pilot error. The stress and anguish placed on pilots by this mismanagement will cause more errors within the pilot group and where or when these errors align to a deadly end I do not know, but it looks closer each day."
The letter to the board, as well as to Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and Jetstar Group boss Bruce Buchanan, accuses management of destroying trust with the pilots and raises questions about a wider agenda, which many pilots believe is to outsource the airline's operations overseas to reduce costs. The letter says that it has become abundantly clear that no amount of dialogue will alter management's plans.
"Despite well over 50 per cent of the Jetstar pilot group now negatively responding to your plan, it is clear to pilots that you intend to spend a great deal of money trying to win the opportunity to circumvent the collective agreement," it says.
Unsurprisingly, Jetstar rejects claims the new contracts are affecting safety and Mr Buchanan argued this week that the group would be severely hampered without the flexibility they allowed.
"I think primarily the union's concerned about whether they've got less industrial clout when the EBA comes up in 2013," Mr Buchanan said. "We make no apologies. The focus for us is about creating a profitable, successful business and it's tough, the airline game's tough."
Mr Buchanan said Jetstar was offering the new pilots 800 hours a year and, under the Modern Award, this meant they were classified as full-time. He said wages and conditions were similar to those in the EBA and paid a junior first officer flying 800 hours about $87,000.
He noted some low-cost carriers had a variable pay model so pilots were paid only for the hours they flew, but Jetstar had put in a floor of 600 hours a year.
"The pay structure is part fixed, part variable, so it's more weighted towards an incentive for productivity," he said.
"But it's still a full-time contract and the salary numbers are still very attractive."
Mr Buchanan argued that the new contract was an effective way of facilitating growth that allowed the company to move experienced pilots around the rest of the group and align with the contracts it had in other countries. It also provided a more productive contract for delivering growth in Australia.
He said command upgrades drove increases in pilot pay and Jetstar had delivered more of those in recent months than it had in the past few years.
The push by pilots or their unions to get every part of the Jetstar business on the same wages and conditions was "never going to happen".
"Our businesses serve different markets and you've got to come up with different business models which will actually show new growth so we can be profitable and successful," Mr Buchanan said. "And success is what creates job security and what creates growth. It's an active discussion that we need to keep having with the pilots."
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer From: The Australian May 20, 2011 12:00AM
PILOT angst has hit new highs at low-cost carrier Jetstar over a new contract that group executive Bruce Buchanan insists is essential to the company's ability to grow.
The Jetstar Pilots Council has taken the unusual step of writing directly to all Qantas board members, while the Australian Federation of Air Pilots has launched Federal Court action and the Australian and International Pilots Association is taking the issue to Fair Work Australia today.
"We've prepared a brief on that and the previous contract and the behaviour of the company towards these cadet pilots," AIPA spokesman Richard Woodward said yesterday. "So we're going ahead with that meeting and we intend to follow up with some meetings with appropriate political people to reinforce the fact that we think they're circumventing Australian workplace laws."
AFAP executive director Terry O'Connell said the federation's claim related to a breach of the existing award "in three or four areas" and it would be seeking immediate relief at a Federal Court directions hearing on June 10.
Mr O'Connell said the union's intention was to get Jetstar management to rethink its position and employ pilots on the enterprise bargaining agreement to which it had been a willing party.
He said that agreement was supposed to herald a new era of co-operation and parties working together in collective sense.
"Unfortunately, it hasn't transpired -- on the basis of these latest actions," Mr O'Connell said.
The pilots are incensed by airline moves to put new hires of junior officers on a group contract outside the enterprise agreement. That guarantees employment for just 600 hours instead of the 800-plus Jetstar pilots generally work. AIPA says the contract allows the company to move new hires to any base in its network and could see them on standby for 12 days a month.
More than 300 pilots have emailed management expressing their alarm and raising fears about the impact of the anger and unrest on the carrier's safety culture and their sense of betrayal. The company's decision to sack pilot Joe Eakins for airing his grievances about the company in the media has made Jetstar pilots reluctant to speak publicly. But, behind the scenes, many are seething.
"I am honestly concerned that safety is not the focus in this company's management, but money and the managers' KPIs (key performance indicators)," said one veteran pilot. "As you must be aware, many aircraft accidents worldwide have been attributed to pilot error. The stress and anguish placed on pilots by this mismanagement will cause more errors within the pilot group and where or when these errors align to a deadly end I do not know, but it looks closer each day."
The letter to the board, as well as to Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and Jetstar Group boss Bruce Buchanan, accuses management of destroying trust with the pilots and raises questions about a wider agenda, which many pilots believe is to outsource the airline's operations overseas to reduce costs. The letter says that it has become abundantly clear that no amount of dialogue will alter management's plans.
"Despite well over 50 per cent of the Jetstar pilot group now negatively responding to your plan, it is clear to pilots that you intend to spend a great deal of money trying to win the opportunity to circumvent the collective agreement," it says.
Unsurprisingly, Jetstar rejects claims the new contracts are affecting safety and Mr Buchanan argued this week that the group would be severely hampered without the flexibility they allowed.
"I think primarily the union's concerned about whether they've got less industrial clout when the EBA comes up in 2013," Mr Buchanan said. "We make no apologies. The focus for us is about creating a profitable, successful business and it's tough, the airline game's tough."
Mr Buchanan said Jetstar was offering the new pilots 800 hours a year and, under the Modern Award, this meant they were classified as full-time. He said wages and conditions were similar to those in the EBA and paid a junior first officer flying 800 hours about $87,000.
He noted some low-cost carriers had a variable pay model so pilots were paid only for the hours they flew, but Jetstar had put in a floor of 600 hours a year.
"The pay structure is part fixed, part variable, so it's more weighted towards an incentive for productivity," he said.
"But it's still a full-time contract and the salary numbers are still very attractive."
Mr Buchanan argued that the new contract was an effective way of facilitating growth that allowed the company to move experienced pilots around the rest of the group and align with the contracts it had in other countries. It also provided a more productive contract for delivering growth in Australia.
He said command upgrades drove increases in pilot pay and Jetstar had delivered more of those in recent months than it had in the past few years.
The push by pilots or their unions to get every part of the Jetstar business on the same wages and conditions was "never going to happen".
"Our businesses serve different markets and you've got to come up with different business models which will actually show new growth so we can be profitable and successful," Mr Buchanan said. "And success is what creates job security and what creates growth. It's an active discussion that we need to keep having with the pilots."
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phuck it, your a lying sack of sh!t.
Last edited by breakfastburrito; 20th May 2011 at 02:03.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz land
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done Burrito
Clearly states in that contract that Pilot will be employed under part time basis !
Even a 3 year old kid could read that properly and understand it unlike BB.
Like was said in earlier post.
Paid part time but expected to work full time.
Clearly states in that contract that Pilot will be employed under part time basis !
Even a 3 year old kid could read that properly and understand it unlike BB.
Like was said in earlier post.
Paid part time but expected to work full time.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flyforfun1,
Your idea has a lot of merit.However another idea is that any pilot who is offered ANY contract offered by Jetstar and is prepared to knock it back should respond that they are only interested in an EBA position(ie the position you spent time and money being interviewed for) Once you accept ANY contract with them you will eventually be pushed into the very contract that is on offer now.Anybody who accepts the current contract would have to be insane.Jetstar management are ruthless
and they will squeeze every drop they can out of you.DO NOT ACCEPT ANY ASSURANCES FROM ANYBODY AT JETSTAR, THEY WILL NEVER HONOR ANY THING THEY SAY.!!!!!!
Gnadenburg you are an idiot and have no idea what you are talking about.
Your idea has a lot of merit.However another idea is that any pilot who is offered ANY contract offered by Jetstar and is prepared to knock it back should respond that they are only interested in an EBA position(ie the position you spent time and money being interviewed for) Once you accept ANY contract with them you will eventually be pushed into the very contract that is on offer now.Anybody who accepts the current contract would have to be insane.Jetstar management are ruthless
and they will squeeze every drop they can out of you.DO NOT ACCEPT ANY ASSURANCES FROM ANYBODY AT JETSTAR, THEY WILL NEVER HONOR ANY THING THEY SAY.!!!!!!Gnadenburg you are an idiot and have no idea what you are talking about.
Forgive my ignorance but aren't the Jq a320 captains that promoted themselves to the 330 in Singapore on an hourly rate with a guaranteed minimum 600 hours/ year?
I trust they incur the same wrath your new joiners receive.
I trust they incur the same wrath your new joiners receive.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Shire
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetstar Pilots will never stand up for themselves. They will always want others to do their dirty work whilst they climb over each other for the next promotion or basing.
Just have a look at the history of some of them. 1989 ring a bell?
Just have a look at the history of some of them. 1989 ring a bell?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: no fixed address
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bigboeingboy,
You raised valid points at first, now you just look like youre trying to start a fight. What percentage of Jetstar pilots were even in their twentys in '89? I cant see how its helpful to compare basically two different generations.
You raised valid points at first, now you just look like youre trying to start a fight. What percentage of Jetstar pilots were even in their twentys in '89? I cant see how its helpful to compare basically two different generations.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In the sky, mostly
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some points I noted...
*Pilots MUST be familiar with the “pilot policy” and comply with it at all times - yet it may be amended at the absolute discretion of the company at any time.
*Clause 7 and 16 of the policy are already blank. What will be inserted there?
*A duty already commenced can be extended by the company to the full extent allowable by Flight and Duty limitations and the pilot must accept this.
*Pilots with <2 years in the company (regardless of experience) are “Level 1” First Officers. The performance bonus doesn’t apply to level 1 FOs, RDO payments are less for level 1 FOs, hourly rates are less for level 1 FOs and Level 1 FOs only get 108 RDOs per annum – where Level 2 get 132.
*Annual leave must be taken at a time fixed by the company – provided 28 days notice is given.
*You can’t leave home base on an RDO without company consent.
*You must have a mobile telephone and ALWAYS be readily contactable. This naturally includes RDOs etc.
*Hourly rate of pay includes all duties (including deadhead, sim, etc). So as a part time employee you may only be paid for 50 flying hours per month, but spend another 20 hours paxing and doing sim for no extra pay.
*The hourly rate will be reviewed by the company each year.
*You can’t mow the neighbor’s lawn for a carton of beer without company consent.
*After your first year of service you must give 3 months notice to leave.
*If your employment is terminated for any reason (including “due to operational requirements”), you have to pay the full endorsement cost back before your last day.
I am not a lawyer, so everyone should get their own proper legal advice.
*Pilots MUST be familiar with the “pilot policy” and comply with it at all times - yet it may be amended at the absolute discretion of the company at any time.
*Clause 7 and 16 of the policy are already blank. What will be inserted there?
*A duty already commenced can be extended by the company to the full extent allowable by Flight and Duty limitations and the pilot must accept this.
*Pilots with <2 years in the company (regardless of experience) are “Level 1” First Officers. The performance bonus doesn’t apply to level 1 FOs, RDO payments are less for level 1 FOs, hourly rates are less for level 1 FOs and Level 1 FOs only get 108 RDOs per annum – where Level 2 get 132.
*Annual leave must be taken at a time fixed by the company – provided 28 days notice is given.
*You can’t leave home base on an RDO without company consent.
*You must have a mobile telephone and ALWAYS be readily contactable. This naturally includes RDOs etc.
*Hourly rate of pay includes all duties (including deadhead, sim, etc). So as a part time employee you may only be paid for 50 flying hours per month, but spend another 20 hours paxing and doing sim for no extra pay.
*The hourly rate will be reviewed by the company each year.
*You can’t mow the neighbor’s lawn for a carton of beer without company consent.
*After your first year of service you must give 3 months notice to leave.
*If your employment is terminated for any reason (including “due to operational requirements”), you have to pay the full endorsement cost back before your last day.
I am not a lawyer, so everyone should get their own proper legal advice.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wherever the job takes me...
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bigboeingboy, I don't work for JQ, but I have mates who do. They are good blokes, professionals in the true sense of the word, & the only reason they took the job in the first place was because personal circumstances & a lack of better options were such that it was either JQ or nothing. Some of them have since been able to vote with their feet & take their skills elsewhere, & some are just waiting for the opportunity.
It's very easy for us all to be armchair critics & point the finger at them, but I make it a point of trying not to pass judgment on someone before walking a mile in their shoes. Nor do I tar everyone with the same brush. So instead of taking the cheap option & criticising them for taking the job in the first place, prostituting themselves, degrading the industry, etc etc, how about we just turn the page & give them a bit of support for once! If you want to have a go at anyone, have a go at BB & his despicable band of mis-managers for trying to sell this sh!te in the first place.
The arrogance of this person is truly astonishing!
It's very easy for us all to be armchair critics & point the finger at them, but I make it a point of trying not to pass judgment on someone before walking a mile in their shoes. Nor do I tar everyone with the same brush. So instead of taking the cheap option & criticising them for taking the job in the first place, prostituting themselves, degrading the industry, etc etc, how about we just turn the page & give them a bit of support for once! If you want to have a go at anyone, have a go at BB & his despicable band of mis-managers for trying to sell this sh!te in the first place.
"I think primarily the union's concerned about whether they've got less industrial clout when the EBA comes up in 2013," Mr Buchanan said. "We make no apologies. The focus for us is about creating a profitable, successful business and it's tough, the airline game's tough."
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What Bunglerat said.
Trying to alienate all Jetstar pilots because of something that happened over 20 years ago won't help any of us. In fact it plays into the hands of those that want to screw us most.
Trying to alienate all Jetstar pilots because of something that happened over 20 years ago won't help any of us. In fact it plays into the hands of those that want to screw us most.
"I think primarily the union's concerned about whether they've got less industrial clout when the EBA comes up in 2013," Mr Buchanan said. "We make no apologies. The focus for us is about creating a profitable, successful business and it's tough, the airline game's tough."
Thankfully BB, you won't be there
As for focusing on creating a profitable, successful Airline business, you could just cut out the Airline side completely and focus on muffins!
Last edited by The Green Goblin; 20th May 2011 at 06:16.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oz
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
- If management change their minds (yes, and I beleive in Santa too!), you still hold position in the application queue
A family to provide for .... You pretentious ignorant idiot
So what is the difference between a new joiner joining on this new contract and yourself? Does his family not count?
Lay off new joiners. You yourselves have created the greatest mess in professional aviation witnessed by our generation.
Short of walking off the job (which is illegal and prosecutable by dismissal in Australia), what do you propose to do Gnandenburg? Any change in work pattern from the norm can be construed as industrial action (if you had ever bothered to look it up).
If you are referring to working within the confines of the EBA and not showing good will - i think you'll find that's well and truly underway - although nobody would put it on the record.
If you have so many great ideas maybe you could help out by contacting AFAP/AIPA. That is if you are seriously interested in helping out this war on our profession. If you are just sitting bored with nothing to do and feel like taking a cheap shot on PPRuNe, then quite frankly I know most of the JQ guys would tell you where to go! Theres enough stress on these guys and their families for you to throw your idle time at them too!
I know the JQ boys are doing whatever they can within the realms of legality and WELL DONE GUYS AND GIRLS!
To anyone who is thinking of signing up on the this new agreement - from what I've heard you will be well and truly feeling left out in the cold after you start.
If you are referring to working within the confines of the EBA and not showing good will - i think you'll find that's well and truly underway - although nobody would put it on the record.
If you have so many great ideas maybe you could help out by contacting AFAP/AIPA. That is if you are seriously interested in helping out this war on our profession. If you are just sitting bored with nothing to do and feel like taking a cheap shot on PPRuNe, then quite frankly I know most of the JQ guys would tell you where to go! Theres enough stress on these guys and their families for you to throw your idle time at them too!
I know the JQ boys are doing whatever they can within the realms of legality and WELL DONE GUYS AND GIRLS!
To anyone who is thinking of signing up on the this new agreement - from what I've heard you will be well and truly feeling left out in the cold after you start.
On sick leave, I am just querying what has made Jetstar pilots so dutiful over the years? It sounds like such a depressing job surly this should have reflected in sick leave. Yet I hear it hasn't. High individual sick leave should not be construed as industrial action with medical certificate.
Forgive my ignorance but aren't the Jq a320 captains that promoted themselves to the 330 in Singapore on an hourly rate with a guaranteed minimum 600 hours/ year?
I trust they incur the same wrath your new joiners receive.
Karunch is offline Report Post Reply
I trust they incur the same wrath your new joiners receive.
Karunch is offline Report Post Reply
They are turning widebody airline flying into GA. With the excuse that they are just getting the experience to move on elsewhere.
But guess what. The market adjusts. The sort after airlines lower their COS's in appreciation of what these pilots are doing.
A few do OK but the whole picture changes for everyone else. You end up with, regionally in the case of the JQ Singaporian pilots, a scenario similar to what is happening in Australia.
Perhaps it is these pilots who should be "banned" or cop our professional wrath. The ones who create the true momentum for management to exploit conditions.