New JQ Contract
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Some pilots are 'negotiating' with Jetstar, for example asking for a min of 800 hours a year and they'll sign.
Think carefully guys there is much more to this document than meets the eye. Try and attend the AFAP meeting tomorrow in MEL or Wednesday in Sydney, I am sure they will not mind - you may even learn something!!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Hours to pay is small part of the problem. T&C's people. Sure let's agree to work like dogs and do 1000 hrs a year and earn $120k. Mind you, you will have no life, you won't be able to leave your base because crewing just might need you. Some life you'll have. it's not just about the bottom line.
This was in the 'Plane Talking' article;
Is this true? And if so, what on earth were the negotiators thinking?? If pilots knew about this, what were they thinking voting it up? It seems utterly crazy to give the company such an option.
Surely there is more to it that I am missing.
The original EBA which is valid to 2013 contains a provision which was controversial at the time it was entered into allowing Jetstar to hire outside of the terms of the agreement.
Surely there is more to it that I am missing.
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The original EBA which is valid to 2013 contains a provision which was controversial at the time it was entered into allowing Jetstar to hire outside of the terms of the agreement.
Thanks
The Kelpie
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AFAP Meetings
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 16 May 2011
All Jetstar Pilots,
The AFAP Jetstar Pilot meetings have been brought forward by 30 minutes because since putting out our Briefings over the weekend, the company has brought forward its meetings from 1200 hours (as it initially advised) to 1100 hours.
The first Jetstar pilot meetings are as follows:
Melbourne
10:30-11:30am NOW 10:00am – 11:00am
Tuesday 17 May 2011
Tullamarine Room
Holiday Inn (at the Airport)
Sydney
10:30-11:30am NOW 10:00am – 11:00am
Wednesday 18 May 2011
St George Rowing Club
1 Levey St, Wolli Creek
Meetings at other ports to be advised shortly
All Jetstar pilots need to take notice, get informed, and defend their Jetstar EBA.
We are holding pilot meetings to advise you of the details of the insidious Jetstar Group Contracts and what we are doing to resist them.
We urge all Jetstar pilots to attend regardless of whether you are a union member or not. This is a threat to everyone’s future career and it will take a committed and unified pilot group to win this fight.
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NEWSLETTER TO ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES AND ENCOURAGE EVERY JETSTAR PILOT TO ATTEND
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737 or mobile 0419 482 582.
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 16 May 2011
All Jetstar Pilots,
The AFAP Jetstar Pilot meetings have been brought forward by 30 minutes because since putting out our Briefings over the weekend, the company has brought forward its meetings from 1200 hours (as it initially advised) to 1100 hours.
The first Jetstar pilot meetings are as follows:
Melbourne
10:30-11:30am NOW 10:00am – 11:00am
Tuesday 17 May 2011
Tullamarine Room
Holiday Inn (at the Airport)
Sydney
10:30-11:30am NOW 10:00am – 11:00am
Wednesday 18 May 2011
St George Rowing Club
1 Levey St, Wolli Creek
Meetings at other ports to be advised shortly
All Jetstar pilots need to take notice, get informed, and defend their Jetstar EBA.
We are holding pilot meetings to advise you of the details of the insidious Jetstar Group Contracts and what we are doing to resist them.
We urge all Jetstar pilots to attend regardless of whether you are a union member or not. This is a threat to everyone’s future career and it will take a committed and unified pilot group to win this fight.
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NEWSLETTER TO ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES AND ENCOURAGE EVERY JETSTAR PILOT TO ATTEND
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737 or mobile 0419 482 582.
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
Last edited by aulglarse; 16th May 2011 at 12:28.
All I can say is good luck to you guys and girls. Reading threads like this is very sad indeed.
I guess it's the old supply vs demand. Unfortunately for you guys there will be no shortage of shortsighted fools who will sign onto this contract, and Jetstar knows this.
On the flipside, the helicopter world that used to be the poor cousin to airlines is showing a marked increase in payscales for multi-engine IFR drivers (once again supply vs demand). Fortunately it is the clients that dictate the minimum experience and not the operators, or I'm sure we would see the same thing.
I guess it's the old supply vs demand. Unfortunately for you guys there will be no shortage of shortsighted fools who will sign onto this contract, and Jetstar knows this.
On the flipside, the helicopter world that used to be the poor cousin to airlines is showing a marked increase in payscales for multi-engine IFR drivers (once again supply vs demand). Fortunately it is the clients that dictate the minimum experience and not the operators, or I'm sure we would see the same thing.
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I've tried to think about this as a Qantas senior manager would, I really have. I've sat down, had a few good hard pulls on a crack pipe, and contemplated the benefits of this strategy. It still doesn't make any sense.
Ok, you want to pay all your workers a pittance and give them the conditions and rights of an 18th century coal miner. I get that bit. And words like "engagement", "morale" and "loyalty" are meaningless because they don't appear in a balance sheet.
But ....
Up until this point in time, you've had 2 pilot groups which have successfully been divided. One of those groups is cheap by world standards, mostly non-unionised and compliant, something approaching an industrial nirvana. Best of all, there's animosity between the 2 groups and you can now play them off against each other at will.
Now you're actions have caused the 2 groups to start talking and collaborating, and union ranks are swelling. Why destroy the perfect lever you've created to crush the more expensive group of pilots? Why not wait until that act of bastardry was completed?
This is at a time when you are spruiking major expansion plans in Asia, with a significant amount of new hardware arriving over the next few years. Wouldn't you at least keep one group of employees on side until they'd helped you introduce the new type, get the network established etc etc and then slap them with your Shake Hands with the Devil contract?
Also, recently your work practices have come under close scrutiny in the Senate Inquiry and FWA. Now is probably not the best time to tighten the thumb screws and draw further attention to your draconian contracts. In fact, considering the senate inquiry hasn't tabled its final report, it's just sheer contempt.
To me, this strategy has the smell of desperation. Why is there such a need the push the edge of the industrial envelope so hard and so fast? Could it be that the current business strategies aren't performing as expected?
Ok, you want to pay all your workers a pittance and give them the conditions and rights of an 18th century coal miner. I get that bit. And words like "engagement", "morale" and "loyalty" are meaningless because they don't appear in a balance sheet.
But ....
Up until this point in time, you've had 2 pilot groups which have successfully been divided. One of those groups is cheap by world standards, mostly non-unionised and compliant, something approaching an industrial nirvana. Best of all, there's animosity between the 2 groups and you can now play them off against each other at will.
Now you're actions have caused the 2 groups to start talking and collaborating, and union ranks are swelling. Why destroy the perfect lever you've created to crush the more expensive group of pilots? Why not wait until that act of bastardry was completed?
This is at a time when you are spruiking major expansion plans in Asia, with a significant amount of new hardware arriving over the next few years. Wouldn't you at least keep one group of employees on side until they'd helped you introduce the new type, get the network established etc etc and then slap them with your Shake Hands with the Devil contract?
Also, recently your work practices have come under close scrutiny in the Senate Inquiry and FWA. Now is probably not the best time to tighten the thumb screws and draw further attention to your draconian contracts. In fact, considering the senate inquiry hasn't tabled its final report, it's just sheer contempt.
To me, this strategy has the smell of desperation. Why is there such a need the push the edge of the industrial envelope so hard and so fast? Could it be that the current business strategies aren't performing as expected?
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holic at al.
I've also tried this approach and come up puzzled by the management thought process.The Qantas group in the past has benefitted greatly by holding on to their skilled workforce using an actual or implied seniority and good T&Cs.They now seem hell bent on destroying both those levers.
Years ago I was at a meeting for LH Tech crew a week after we got a new CEO.It was at a time when experienced B747 drivers were pretty thin on the ground and a well known Asian carrier regularly poached them as they turned 55 and could pull out their super. A bit into his opening,Mr CEO made the statement that went roughly like, anybody who was in a company for more than 5 years was not the kind of person the Company needed. The CP who was sitting next to him went ashen and at the end of the presentation it was explained by Mr CP that the CEO didn't mean pilots to be included in his comments. However he had lost us forever at that stage because he obviously didn't understand the business he was in.
A few years later and I was presenting at the Productivity Commission hearing on Deregulation in Aviation. The subject of LAMEs came up and I ended up with a raging arguement with the same CEO. I was attempting to argue that in our industry experience is everything. My example was of the old procedure where a defect was called into say SYD Engineering by the FE. Engineering would call back with a few quick requests for observations and tests. The aircraft would be met by a LAME and an apprentice assigned to the defect prior to arrival. Between them they had everything needed and the aircraft normally left on time. Under the new system they were met by a much cheaper AME or 3 who knew nothing about the defect and the aircraft left an hour late with the defect as a hold item.Which is the cheaper staff member? According to current wisdom its the low paid AME. It appears with this debacle, this thinking is now flowing on to the Pilot group.
I can see no future for any airline who sees this way of management as valid.
Wunwing
I've also tried this approach and come up puzzled by the management thought process.The Qantas group in the past has benefitted greatly by holding on to their skilled workforce using an actual or implied seniority and good T&Cs.They now seem hell bent on destroying both those levers.
Years ago I was at a meeting for LH Tech crew a week after we got a new CEO.It was at a time when experienced B747 drivers were pretty thin on the ground and a well known Asian carrier regularly poached them as they turned 55 and could pull out their super. A bit into his opening,Mr CEO made the statement that went roughly like, anybody who was in a company for more than 5 years was not the kind of person the Company needed. The CP who was sitting next to him went ashen and at the end of the presentation it was explained by Mr CP that the CEO didn't mean pilots to be included in his comments. However he had lost us forever at that stage because he obviously didn't understand the business he was in.
A few years later and I was presenting at the Productivity Commission hearing on Deregulation in Aviation. The subject of LAMEs came up and I ended up with a raging arguement with the same CEO. I was attempting to argue that in our industry experience is everything. My example was of the old procedure where a defect was called into say SYD Engineering by the FE. Engineering would call back with a few quick requests for observations and tests. The aircraft would be met by a LAME and an apprentice assigned to the defect prior to arrival. Between them they had everything needed and the aircraft normally left on time. Under the new system they were met by a much cheaper AME or 3 who knew nothing about the defect and the aircraft left an hour late with the defect as a hold item.Which is the cheaper staff member? According to current wisdom its the low paid AME. It appears with this debacle, this thinking is now flowing on to the Pilot group.
I can see no future for any airline who sees this way of management as valid.
Wunwing
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Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but it seemed pertinent to this discussion:
The latest Jetstar pilot contract includes the following (according to associates who have been offered positions):
Australian based pay rate $101/hr
Part time employment only
A base rate of employment of 600 hours per year [The legal limit that pilots can fly is 900 hours, therefore max earnings are $90,900pa]
1 hours work is engine start to engine stop, not start/finish work, flight planning etc not included/unpaid
No wage increases, including CPI except at the absolute discretion of Jetstar
Pilots are required to provide their own training
Total costs approach $150,000
A certificate is proof of training
Five days sick leave per year
In 30 days
9 days off at home with family
a day off is deemed to be a '24 hour period free of duty', not a calendar day
12 days on standby
Standby provisions are available on call to start work asap [1 hour from call]
Days on standby are unpaid unless called to work
Terms and conditions of employment can be changed at the 'absolute discretion' of Jetstar
Pilots can be transferred to any base in the current or future network with pay set at local rates after transfer
Currently
Australia [$101/hr]
New Zealand
Singapore
Planned (I Still Call Australia Home.....)
Malaysia
China
Saigon
??????
Australian based pay rate $101/hr
Part time employment only
A base rate of employment of 600 hours per year [The legal limit that pilots can fly is 900 hours, therefore max earnings are $90,900pa]
1 hours work is engine start to engine stop, not start/finish work, flight planning etc not included/unpaid
No wage increases, including CPI except at the absolute discretion of Jetstar
Pilots are required to provide their own training
Total costs approach $150,000
A certificate is proof of training
Five days sick leave per year
In 30 days
9 days off at home with family
a day off is deemed to be a '24 hour period free of duty', not a calendar day
12 days on standby
Standby provisions are available on call to start work asap [1 hour from call]
Days on standby are unpaid unless called to work
Terms and conditions of employment can be changed at the 'absolute discretion' of Jetstar
Pilots can be transferred to any base in the current or future network with pay set at local rates after transfer
Currently
Australia [$101/hr]
New Zealand
Singapore
Planned (I Still Call Australia Home.....)
Malaysia
China
Saigon
??????
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Curious.....Has J* responded to any of the 200 or so pilot emails?
If so, what was the response.
Has Xenophon been CC'd the emails? I'm sure he'd be interested to hear of any bullying tactics going on.
MC
If so, what was the response.
Has Xenophon been CC'd the emails? I'm sure he'd be interested to hear of any bullying tactics going on.
MC
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It seems there are two different strategies in the Oz scene.
Qf group
Va group
The qf group is openly adversarial with all employees. They use aggression and bullyboy tactics. The Va group have the complete opposite however they are not push overs by any stretch of the imagination on ir matters (see 777 eba). The first group has disengaged nearly every staff member. The second has nearly all staff on side bar those involved in the eba process.
The question is which approach wins? It's a question raised in the AFR article from 14-15 May titled:"Hardball tactics deliver rough ride". Southwest gets a mention as an example. On the oz front its hard to tell who wins as the companies are different. It's not a case of looking at profits as an example.
The only way I could compare apples with apples is imagining owning a small business. I'd prefer to keep my staff on side for 5 years and then drive a hard deal at eba than smash them all day every day.
Just my thoughts.
I suspect the accountants/otp dept are going to be seeing some ugly figures if
this keeps up!
Qf group
Va group
The qf group is openly adversarial with all employees. They use aggression and bullyboy tactics. The Va group have the complete opposite however they are not push overs by any stretch of the imagination on ir matters (see 777 eba). The first group has disengaged nearly every staff member. The second has nearly all staff on side bar those involved in the eba process.
The question is which approach wins? It's a question raised in the AFR article from 14-15 May titled:"Hardball tactics deliver rough ride". Southwest gets a mention as an example. On the oz front its hard to tell who wins as the companies are different. It's not a case of looking at profits as an example.
The only way I could compare apples with apples is imagining owning a small business. I'd prefer to keep my staff on side for 5 years and then drive a hard deal at eba than smash them all day every day.
Just my thoughts.
I suspect the accountants/otp dept are going to be seeing some ugly figures if
this keeps up!
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a day off is deemed to be a '24 hour period free of duty', not a calendar day
So if one were to finish at 12 noon one day and sign on at 12.30pm the following day, they will have used up one of their 9 days off for the month??
So if one were to finish at 12 noon one day and sign on at 12.30pm the following day, they will have used up one of their 9 days off for the month??
I heard a few JQ drivers have gone to Tiger, and good on them too, more money with no bull****, more relaxed lifestyle at least. Tiger apparently recruiting for up to 6 new A320's this year, so I would put your application in right now to be considered as the holding pool is enormous.
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Glad I have a good job,
Maybe Taxi companies should start advertising for drivers at flying schools their conditions are better than anything the airlines are offering now days!
If its all about the uniform maybe a bus company.
Maybe Taxi companies should start advertising for drivers at flying schools their conditions are better than anything the airlines are offering now days!
If its all about the uniform maybe a bus company.
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6 weeks at a nominated rate for the leave.
Annual - $390
compassionate, sick and other leave was calculated differently and a lower rate..
It is also noteworthy that all allowances included that the "may be provided" seemed the general theme of the document...
We all know you would be a moron to accept, we also know that many morons have been provided with letters...
Annual - $390
compassionate, sick and other leave was calculated differently and a lower rate..
It is also noteworthy that all allowances included that the "may be provided" seemed the general theme of the document...
We all know you would be a moron to accept, we also know that many morons have been provided with letters...
Wunwing sums up the stupidity. I can explain the thinking.
This thinking derives from narcissism, and as I have posted before, narcissistic managers attract other narcissistic managers to work for them because only narcissists will lick the required arse cheek as required. Qantas, with its infinite gradations of status, seniority and associated perquisites is a narcissists paradise: "Going to London next month old chap? I'll get you an upgrade to First, think nothing of it!"
The trouble is that narcissists believe their own bullshyte - they really do think the world revolves around them, the closest way I can describe how they think of "ordinary people" - meaning workers, is a little like dogs that talk. Pat them, feed them, but if they get out of line and don't do exactly as told, have them put down immediately.
What that means is that too a narcissist experience isn't important, I mean how could some little man in greasy overalls know more than you? How could a pilot dare tell you anything that is at variance with what that nice young man from Boeing or Airbus told you?
"Modern technology makes the old ways of thinking obsolete"....and you believe it...and start making smart cracks about "legacy airlines" and presumably legacy employees, who are long past their "use by" date and will be got rid of as soon as it is expedient.
This is the trouble. They hate experience because it shows them up as the know nothing amateurs that they are. Their response is to remove the experience, then no one in the organisation knows enough to point out the flaws in their stupid schemes.
As for the shareholders, narcissists don't care.
I've also tried this approach and come up puzzled by the management thought process.The Qantas group in the past has benefitted greatly by holding on to their skilled workforce using an actual or implied seniority and good T&Cs.They now seem hell bent on destroying both those levers.
Years ago I was at a meeting for LH Tech crew a week after we got a new CEO.It was at a time when experienced B747 drivers were pretty thin on the ground and a well known Asian carrier regularly poached them as they turned 55 and could pull out their super. A bit into his opening,Mr CEO made the statement that went roughly like, anybody who was in a company for more than 5 years was not the kind of person the Company needed. The CP who was sitting next to him went ashen and at the end of the presentation it was explained by Mr CP that the CEO didn't mean pilots to be included in his comments. However he had lost us forever at that stage because he obviously didn't understand the business he was in.
A few years later and I was presenting at the Productivity Commission hearing on Deregulation in Aviation. The subject of LAMEs came up and I ended up with a raging arguement with the same CEO. I was attempting to argue that in our industry experience is everything. My example was of the old procedure where a defect was called into say SYD Engineering by the FE. Engineering would call back with a few quick requests for observations and tests. The aircraft would be met by a LAME and an apprentice assigned to the defect prior to arrival. Between them they had everything needed and the aircraft normally left on time. Under the new system they were met by a much cheaper AME or 3 who knew nothing about the defect and the aircraft left an hour late with the defect as a hold item.Which is the cheaper staff member? According to current wisdom its the low paid AME. It appears with this debacle, this thinking is now flowing on to the Pilot group.
I can see no future for any airline who sees this way of management as valid.
Years ago I was at a meeting for LH Tech crew a week after we got a new CEO.It was at a time when experienced B747 drivers were pretty thin on the ground and a well known Asian carrier regularly poached them as they turned 55 and could pull out their super. A bit into his opening,Mr CEO made the statement that went roughly like, anybody who was in a company for more than 5 years was not the kind of person the Company needed. The CP who was sitting next to him went ashen and at the end of the presentation it was explained by Mr CP that the CEO didn't mean pilots to be included in his comments. However he had lost us forever at that stage because he obviously didn't understand the business he was in.
A few years later and I was presenting at the Productivity Commission hearing on Deregulation in Aviation. The subject of LAMEs came up and I ended up with a raging arguement with the same CEO. I was attempting to argue that in our industry experience is everything. My example was of the old procedure where a defect was called into say SYD Engineering by the FE. Engineering would call back with a few quick requests for observations and tests. The aircraft would be met by a LAME and an apprentice assigned to the defect prior to arrival. Between them they had everything needed and the aircraft normally left on time. Under the new system they were met by a much cheaper AME or 3 who knew nothing about the defect and the aircraft left an hour late with the defect as a hold item.Which is the cheaper staff member? According to current wisdom its the low paid AME. It appears with this debacle, this thinking is now flowing on to the Pilot group.
I can see no future for any airline who sees this way of management as valid.
This thinking derives from narcissism, and as I have posted before, narcissistic managers attract other narcissistic managers to work for them because only narcissists will lick the required arse cheek as required. Qantas, with its infinite gradations of status, seniority and associated perquisites is a narcissists paradise: "Going to London next month old chap? I'll get you an upgrade to First, think nothing of it!"
The trouble is that narcissists believe their own bullshyte - they really do think the world revolves around them, the closest way I can describe how they think of "ordinary people" - meaning workers, is a little like dogs that talk. Pat them, feed them, but if they get out of line and don't do exactly as told, have them put down immediately.
What that means is that too a narcissist experience isn't important, I mean how could some little man in greasy overalls know more than you? How could a pilot dare tell you anything that is at variance with what that nice young man from Boeing or Airbus told you?
"Modern technology makes the old ways of thinking obsolete"....and you believe it...and start making smart cracks about "legacy airlines" and presumably legacy employees, who are long past their "use by" date and will be got rid of as soon as it is expedient.
This is the trouble. They hate experience because it shows them up as the know nothing amateurs that they are. Their response is to remove the experience, then no one in the organisation knows enough to point out the flaws in their stupid schemes.
As for the shareholders, narcissists don't care.
