VB pax unload
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What he said ↑
Especially EWL... I have, for many years, respected you as a learned and knowledgable poster on these forums (and continue to do so) - but was surprised to see you jumping to conclusions & a bit of diatrabe without knowing anything other than the 'facts' presented on this forum.
No one has presented any coal-face facts about the compensation & recovery options offered to the pax involved, nor about the decision making processes involved in this case - so any comments here are only pure speculation.
Especially EWL... I have, for many years, respected you as a learned and knowledgable poster on these forums (and continue to do so) - but was surprised to see you jumping to conclusions & a bit of diatrabe without knowing anything other than the 'facts' presented on this forum.
No one has presented any coal-face facts about the compensation & recovery options offered to the pax involved, nor about the decision making processes involved in this case - so any comments here are only pure speculation.
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Regardless of the facts
It's not a great PR look is it??
EWL summed it up best, late bags aint going to spoil your Bali trip too much surely, so long as the reason is given in simple lay terms I imagine most would accept the inconvenience with a token gesture of compensation.
The other question WRT additional fuel being required is at what thrust rating do these aircraft operate?
I'm led to believe 24K where as they are capable of 26K but for VB being tight fisted at the time of delivery would have avoided these circumstances on the majority of these "long" sectors with the additional thrust assuming there was a performance issue and they were not at MTOW associated with the assumed holding requirement.
Jumping into fox hole now.
EWL summed it up best, late bags aint going to spoil your Bali trip too much surely, so long as the reason is given in simple lay terms I imagine most would accept the inconvenience with a token gesture of compensation.
The other question WRT additional fuel being required is at what thrust rating do these aircraft operate?
I'm led to believe 24K where as they are capable of 26K but for VB being tight fisted at the time of delivery would have avoided these circumstances on the majority of these "long" sectors with the additional thrust assuming there was a performance issue and they were not at MTOW associated with the assumed holding requirement.
Jumping into fox hole now.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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porch monkey
thereby taking off overweight?
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The facts that we DO know Mr Hat are that 2 pax were bumped after they had boarded.
What we do not know is if it was a change in the enroute WX, local temperature or some other external factor.
One would hope that it wasn't just the load controller suddenly discovering that the flight was over maximum brake release weight after it had boarded. If that is the case they need their arse kicked all the way to Denpasar.
sinala1 - I was operating on the known facts as above which are very straight forward and ignore what the cause was.
Unless all the baggage was already offloaded which is highly unlikely then I believe the wrong action was taken. Simple knee jerk reaction without thinking the situation through.
I am assuming that we are dealing with contractors who may or may not be penalised if an aeroplane pushes back late and this may have prompted brain fade in getting a swift solution. I am happy to be corrected on all the preceeding posts if necessary as I am totally unsure.
Another possibility to get around the problem that has been floated is burn extra in the taxi. Don't like that at all as the required block and reserve fuel is eroded.
Personally I would not be happy signing that aeroplane out ans the taxi fuel calculation should not come into the maximum BRW.
It wasn't a Goroka departure where you could jam on 16.5 of flap at vr and then stick the nose down into the valley to build airspeed.
What I was talking about was the basic culture of problem solving and how DJ bought themselves a worldload of hurt through a poor and untrained decision.
Best all
EWL
What we do not know is if it was a change in the enroute WX, local temperature or some other external factor.
One would hope that it wasn't just the load controller suddenly discovering that the flight was over maximum brake release weight after it had boarded. If that is the case they need their arse kicked all the way to Denpasar.
sinala1 - I was operating on the known facts as above which are very straight forward and ignore what the cause was.
Unless all the baggage was already offloaded which is highly unlikely then I believe the wrong action was taken. Simple knee jerk reaction without thinking the situation through.
I am assuming that we are dealing with contractors who may or may not be penalised if an aeroplane pushes back late and this may have prompted brain fade in getting a swift solution. I am happy to be corrected on all the preceeding posts if necessary as I am totally unsure.
Another possibility to get around the problem that has been floated is burn extra in the taxi. Don't like that at all as the required block and reserve fuel is eroded.
Personally I would not be happy signing that aeroplane out ans the taxi fuel calculation should not come into the maximum BRW.
It wasn't a Goroka departure where you could jam on 16.5 of flap at vr and then stick the nose down into the valley to build airspeed.
What I was talking about was the basic culture of problem solving and how DJ bought themselves a worldload of hurt through a poor and untrained decision.
Best all
EWL
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Originally Posted by Eastwest Loco
a poor and untrained decision.
I respect you immensely EWL but in the spirit of healthy debate, I disagree with you in this case. You are making generalisations about a process you had no involvement in whatsoever. Of course there are "best practice" procedures that apply, and to which you refer - but who knows what extenuating circumstances applied to this specific case?
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Parrabellum, the 737-800 MTOW is approx 79 tonne, carries 20.8 tonne of fuel and ML - DPS is still a long way in the 73, especially if there is weather at the other end or the ALT add to that headwinds coming into winter. Like someone else posted, they needed the fuel at the other end. Pencil thickness wouldn't have come into it either, dont use those charts for TOW calculations.
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other options and driving the system.
whilst bumping the pax may fix the one flight problem is this a symptom of a poor flight planning and management system sitting behind the operating crew??
Some things to consider
- change the cruise schedule> is a long range cruise avbl. Was it used.
- do DJ have a long range cruise table in the flight planning system.
- alternate airway or haggle with ATC for a direct track to reduce the track miles.
- does the trip need high speed cruise due to crew duty time. Is this an out and back trip or do the crew slip in DPS??? could time be made up on the return leg to stay in duty time limits.
- is there a set heading allowance that could be dropped by using an alternate runway vis depart direct on track. haggle this with ATC
- is the AUSOTS system best route of the day. don't recall it being calculated for a 737-800
- what payload study allowed commercial staff to sell the full capacity ( bums on seats)
- what statistical winds were used to determine the commercial planned payload . what percentage winds were used. Do DJ do payload studies.
- did the dispatcher doing the plan advise ops control that an offload was higly likely. Ops control should have known about this hours prior to the crew having to fix the problem. Ops control system failure!!!!
- was the dispatcher overloaded and just turning out sausage flight plans.
- did the crew take fuel above flight planned.
- what was the tail number fuel burn correction on that airframe. Could an aircraft swap to one with a lower fuel burn get them there?? Is there a procedure to only task light fuel burn aircraft on payload limited sectors.
- did the dispatcher ( flight planner ) try changing planned level or just take the levels that came out of the system. how many alternate plan options were tried.
- is the fuel policy being applied correctly?????
- can you reduce the potable water??
- any freight or low priority bags?
Pretty big system failure sitting behind this event which should have been sorted before the crew got the cops involved.
Some things to consider
- change the cruise schedule> is a long range cruise avbl. Was it used.
- do DJ have a long range cruise table in the flight planning system.
- alternate airway or haggle with ATC for a direct track to reduce the track miles.
- does the trip need high speed cruise due to crew duty time. Is this an out and back trip or do the crew slip in DPS??? could time be made up on the return leg to stay in duty time limits.
- is there a set heading allowance that could be dropped by using an alternate runway vis depart direct on track. haggle this with ATC
- is the AUSOTS system best route of the day. don't recall it being calculated for a 737-800
- what payload study allowed commercial staff to sell the full capacity ( bums on seats)
- what statistical winds were used to determine the commercial planned payload . what percentage winds were used. Do DJ do payload studies.
- did the dispatcher doing the plan advise ops control that an offload was higly likely. Ops control should have known about this hours prior to the crew having to fix the problem. Ops control system failure!!!!
- was the dispatcher overloaded and just turning out sausage flight plans.
- did the crew take fuel above flight planned.
- what was the tail number fuel burn correction on that airframe. Could an aircraft swap to one with a lower fuel burn get them there?? Is there a procedure to only task light fuel burn aircraft on payload limited sectors.
- did the dispatcher ( flight planner ) try changing planned level or just take the levels that came out of the system. how many alternate plan options were tried.
- is the fuel policy being applied correctly?????
- can you reduce the potable water??
- any freight or low priority bags?
Pretty big system failure sitting behind this event which should have been sorted before the crew got the cops involved.
Last edited by catseye; 24th Apr 2011 at 13:35. Reason: typo
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Oh, for crying out load - it was 200kgs!!! To off load people for 200kgs extra fuel is ridiculous in the extreme.
I'm sorry, but at cruise fuel flows that is approx 5 mins flying time & anyone with half an ounce of airmanship could have found a way around it legally. Either there is a hell of a lot more to the story (and there usually is) or someone dropped the ball big time!
Perhaps some of you guys should step back from the trees a bit & take a look at the forest!
I'm sorry, but at cruise fuel flows that is approx 5 mins flying time & anyone with half an ounce of airmanship could have found a way around it legally. Either there is a hell of a lot more to the story (and there usually is) or someone dropped the ball big time!
Perhaps some of you guys should step back from the trees a bit & take a look at the forest!
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sinala I totally accept and understand your point.
There may well have been more going on than is evident beyond the max BRW problem that may even come down to the bumped passengers and a shoddy cover up.
We may indeed never know.
On the simple cause and effect I still stand by bumping baggage/freight and handling that but as you rightly point out we do not know the whole story.
I know what I would have done, but hell - I have made some massive miscalls over the years.
Don't make errors often even now, but when I do they are normally of Biblical proportions and cost me bucks.
Best regards
EWL
There may well have been more going on than is evident beyond the max BRW problem that may even come down to the bumped passengers and a shoddy cover up.
We may indeed never know.
On the simple cause and effect I still stand by bumping baggage/freight and handling that but as you rightly point out we do not know the whole story.
I know what I would have done, but hell - I have made some massive miscalls over the years.
Don't make errors often even now, but when I do they are normally of Biblical proportions and cost me bucks.
Best regards
EWL
The comments about 200kg making no difference do not seem to have grasped the simple concept that the captain signs for the flight on the basis that is legal. If weather is such that extra is needed, lets say as an example potentially below minimum weather forecast, then the flight plan lists the extra diversion fuel required to suitable alternates.
Max landing weight is mostly the limiting factor if, as you hope, you can land at your destination. How you get the weight down is the issue. We almost always offload bags as that is easiest in the short term as this thread demonstrates. However I note that the newspaper article also describes passenger's frustration at having their bags unloaded.
Max landing weight is mostly the limiting factor if, as you hope, you can land at your destination. How you get the weight down is the issue. We almost always offload bags as that is easiest in the short term as this thread demonstrates. However I note that the newspaper article also describes passenger's frustration at having their bags unloaded.
Catseye
You're way too smart for some of the Neanderthals around here. You have spelled out many of the options and questions I had in mind. I wonder if the deep-thinkers will try to shut you up as well? It will be fascinating to know the DJ response to yr many justified questions and comments. Well put.
You're way too smart for some of the Neanderthals around here. You have spelled out many of the options and questions I had in mind. I wonder if the deep-thinkers will try to shut you up as well? It will be fascinating to know the DJ response to yr many justified questions and comments. Well put.
