J* have a ways to go understanding fatigue
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J* have a ways to go understanding fatigue
Toughen up, tired Jetstar pilots told
Ben Packham From: The Australian March 31, 2011 11:22AM
A SENIOR Jetstar manager told pilots to "toughen up princesses" after complaints about fatigue on the budget airline's Perth to Singapore route.
The instruction was contained in an email admonishing the airline's pilots, tabled in a Senate committee hearing today in which Qantas and Jetstar executives were questioned about safety standards.
In it, pilots were told: "Aeroplanes don't make money sitting on the tarmac, they need to keep flying".
The email opened with the warning: "If you are easily offended then delete this email and read no further. Toughen up princesses! You aren't fatigued, you are tired and can't be bothered going to work."
However the author, a Perth-based pilot manager, admitted that overnight flights on the Perth to Singapore route were a "horror shift".
The pilot manager acknowledged in the email that when he flew the shift, he operated below his normal standards.
Have a read of the E-mail, has to be seen to be believed.
Ignorance to the extreme.
Seemingly J* have not learnt anything from the Colgan crash, yes it occured in another country. The lessons are the same, roster someone a fatigueing duty and the likelehood of an increase in operational errors increases.
Ben Packham From: The Australian March 31, 2011 11:22AM
A SENIOR Jetstar manager told pilots to "toughen up princesses" after complaints about fatigue on the budget airline's Perth to Singapore route.
The instruction was contained in an email admonishing the airline's pilots, tabled in a Senate committee hearing today in which Qantas and Jetstar executives were questioned about safety standards.
In it, pilots were told: "Aeroplanes don't make money sitting on the tarmac, they need to keep flying".
The email opened with the warning: "If you are easily offended then delete this email and read no further. Toughen up princesses! You aren't fatigued, you are tired and can't be bothered going to work."
However the author, a Perth-based pilot manager, admitted that overnight flights on the Perth to Singapore route were a "horror shift".
The pilot manager acknowledged in the email that when he flew the shift, he operated below his normal standards.
Have a read of the E-mail, has to be seen to be believed.
Ignorance to the extreme.
Seemingly J* have not learnt anything from the Colgan crash, yes it occured in another country. The lessons are the same, roster someone a fatigueing duty and the likelehood of an increase in operational errors increases.
Fatigue = chronic and acute.
You can suffer acute fatigue with back of the clock rostering practices, or a long shift. Yes, you are tired - and if you are, you shouldn't be there!
Chronic fatigue is a consequence of long term terrible rostering practices.
Didn't a certain manager at Jetstar say his Pilots would burn out in x amount of years due to the way they roster them?
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Princess's A? I suggest the person who wrote this crap should not be in the job, and if he is a pilot manager, then he is a bloody disgrace. The princess's are not his pilots, but the fools who suggest they are. 
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I think it's a little bit of a fib saying pilots only work 18 hours a week of which 25 hours a week is the maximum. The general public would think this is a joke! I think BB and AJ should not be so economic on the truth and actually explain how those hours are in the seat from brakes release to brakes set. There are a lot more hours worked per week on duty with flight planning and turn arounds etc than just 18hours. A slightly beneficial figure for the company to quote.
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GG, Chronic and Acute traditionally are categories of stress people are exposed to, not forms of fatigue. Fatigue is Fatigue, insidious and deadly. Ignore it at your peril.
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I think it's a little bit of a fib saying pilots only work 18 hours a week of which 25 hours a week is the maximum
Domestic Ops, max cumulative duty time under the J* exemption is 60hrs.
CASA's interpretation of 'hours worked' and Jetstar's interpretation are totally different. CASA says that ANY duty associated with flying is considered 'work time'. There has also been actioned taken by CASA against numerous Chief Pilots in this country over the years in regard to this very interpretation.
Unfortunately when you hold senate committees with people who are generally pretty ignorant of the truth this sort of stuff slips through. I wonder what Mr Joyce would say if a senator asked him straight away why his interpretation of work time was so dramatically different to the CASA's.
Has Alan Joyce just lied to a Senate Inquiry?
Unfortunately when you hold senate committees with people who are generally pretty ignorant of the truth this sort of stuff slips through. I wonder what Mr Joyce would say if a senator asked him straight away why his interpretation of work time was so dramatically different to the CASA's.
Has Alan Joyce just lied to a Senate Inquiry?
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NN,
suggest bringing to the attention of the senate inquiry via the fax number/email on the aph site. If you think they misled (intentional or unintentional) the senators should be given this info for consideration. You certainly get the impression that pilots have an easy life from the bosses!
suggest bringing to the attention of the senate inquiry via the fax number/email on the aph site. If you think they misled (intentional or unintentional) the senators should be given this info for consideration. You certainly get the impression that pilots have an easy life from the bosses!
Is anybody able to post a typical roster pattern including all of the duty time for the Perth based Jetstar crew. It would be interesting to see what dodgy practices Jetstar are actually up to.
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Buchanan The Stand Up Comedian
Pilots and airlines were both responsible for ensuring fatigue did not jeopardise passenger and aircraft safety, Qantas and Jetstar have told a Senate inquiry.
Qantas boss Alan Joyce told the upper house inquiry into pilot training and airline safety in Canberra, while the airline could not regulate the activities of off-duty pilots, they had an obligation to be fit to work.
"It is up to the pilot to identify if he is feeling fatigue ... and shouldn't be flying," Mr Joyce said on Thursday.
Qantas was responsible for ensuring its roster design minimised and eliminated pilot fatigue, so that it did not affect the safe operation of aircraft, Mr Joyce said.
"We have to make sure it is held as a dual responsibility," he said.
Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan said pilots in the Qantas subsidiary were working less than the maximum allowed hours, so the company could manage fatigue among cabin crew.
"That is why our pilots are working, on average, 18 hours of flying a week where you have got a compliance maximum of 25 hours a week," he told the inquiry.
The airline had taken notice of suggestions to improve safety, both from staff and normal audits.
"What happens when someone points out something that can be done better, we always try to respond to it on a safety management system."
smh.com.au
Qantas boss Alan Joyce told the upper house inquiry into pilot training and airline safety in Canberra, while the airline could not regulate the activities of off-duty pilots, they had an obligation to be fit to work.
"It is up to the pilot to identify if he is feeling fatigue ... and shouldn't be flying," Mr Joyce said on Thursday.
Qantas was responsible for ensuring its roster design minimised and eliminated pilot fatigue, so that it did not affect the safe operation of aircraft, Mr Joyce said.
"We have to make sure it is held as a dual responsibility," he said.
Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan said pilots in the Qantas subsidiary were working less than the maximum allowed hours, so the company could manage fatigue among cabin crew.
"That is why our pilots are working, on average, 18 hours of flying a week where you have got a compliance maximum of 25 hours a week," he told the inquiry.
The airline had taken notice of suggestions to improve safety, both from staff and normal audits.
"What happens when someone points out something that can be done better, we always try to respond to it on a safety management system."
smh.com.au
.
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Clearly this fool of a manager has no idea as to what the definition of fatigue actually is - in relation to aviation HF, 'inadequate rest' and 'disturbed circadian rhythms' make up a good portion of it!
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To all you Princesses out there, it is time to toughen up.....WALK OFF! I cast my mind back to the late 1990s when pilots were constantly on 90+ hours per month and the violation rate ( missed calls, altitude busts, incorrect loading the FMGC and missed/misunderstood clearances) rose alarmingly.
Pilots can operate 75 hours per month all year long. 80 to 85 hours per month and by month ten they are dragging their knuckles. Any more that 80-85 and the pilots are tired all the time.
Good luck to you, I am just grateful that I am out of that nonsense.
Pilots can operate 75 hours per month all year long. 80 to 85 hours per month and by month ten they are dragging their knuckles. Any more that 80-85 and the pilots are tired all the time.
Good luck to you, I am just grateful that I am out of that nonsense.
Last edited by Ndicho Moja; 31st Mar 2011 at 05:44.
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and again.....
' ... The email sent to pilots.
After inquiry proceedings closed, Senator Xenophon warned Jetstar might have an internal problem of bullying and intimidation.
"The potential intimidation in this email is alarming and indicates there may be a bullying culture among pilots," Senator Xenophon said. "Do pilots feel they can't speak out to management?"
"Fatigue is a serious issue and can have an impact on the ability for pilots and crews to safely fly a plane," he said.
Chronic and Acute Fatigue
greenslopes,
The Green Goblin is correct and the example given for Chronic Fatigue is on the mark. The Green Goblin could have gone on to give an example of acute fatigue as the fatigue symptoms felt after the Perth Singas flight quoted that Onestar operate
Chronic and acute is used to define Stress as well as Fatigue
The Green Goblin is correct and the example given for Chronic Fatigue is on the mark. The Green Goblin could have gone on to give an example of acute fatigue as the fatigue symptoms felt after the Perth Singas flight quoted that Onestar operate
Chronic and acute is used to define Stress as well as Fatigue
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Interesting reading on the Australian website. The comments from the readers regarding this email/ article are astounding.
Don't think we have much support out the from Joe Public regarding flight/cabin crew fatigue
Maybe if the unions got together and ran some 'shock' ads on TV about the results of aircrew fatigue, much like the traffic authorities have done with their ads about DUI and driving whilst tired ? Public opinion is a strong motivator for goverments and management to make change happen.
Don't think we have much support out the from Joe Public regarding flight/cabin crew fatigue
Maybe if the unions got together and ran some 'shock' ads on TV about the results of aircrew fatigue, much like the traffic authorities have done with their ads about DUI and driving whilst tired ? Public opinion is a strong motivator for goverments and management to make change happen.