Another Jetstar Whistleblower
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh my farking God....
What, straight from the horses mouth isn't enough?
Go to Safety investigations & reports and have a look for yourselves. There are plenty of examples where there has been a safety compromise in Jetstar.
They aren't serious are they? Jetstar are doing exactly what the enquiry has said they aren't???
JETSTAR PILOTS: THE COMPANY HAS THUMBED ITS NOSE AT YOU, NOW THE SENTATE IS TOO.
GROW A SPINE AND STAND UP TO THEM BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE (if it isn't already). THIS IS YOUR BED, YOU HAVE MADE IT. YOU NEED TO SORT IT OUT!
At this point there is no evidence that there has been any safety compromise.
Go to Safety investigations & reports and have a look for yourselves. There are plenty of examples where there has been a safety compromise in Jetstar.
Our advice is that the innovative workplace arrangements introduced by Jetstar has actually contributed to job growth in the industry sector and helped save jobs from being exported to cheaper labour markets.
JETSTAR PILOTS: THE COMPANY HAS THUMBED ITS NOSE AT YOU, NOW THE SENTATE IS TOO.
GROW A SPINE AND STAND UP TO THEM BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE (if it isn't already). THIS IS YOUR BED, YOU HAVE MADE IT. YOU NEED TO SORT IT OUT!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Stralya
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is not me who have penned this Senate submission, apologies if that was not made sufficiently clear. I am in awe and admiration of the author of this work though, and hope that the message can be conveyed to the traveling public loud and clear. Ben Sandilands and Steve Creedy: there is a job to be done - this side of the story sells papers too!!
It will take not One but Three hull losses in a short time frame before the public wake up.
The managers will be long gone by then.
As for the story that "reduced working conditions have kept jobs in Australia" that is rubbish. The jobs will be moved offshore as soon as suitable arrangements can be made.
The managers will be long gone by then.
As for the story that "reduced working conditions have kept jobs in Australia" that is rubbish. The jobs will be moved offshore as soon as suitable arrangements can be made.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Balance,
Your descent into profanity is not welcomed in a professional arena. Grow up. Being offensive simply erodes your credibility.
Nor does complete subjectivity help your case. The use of cadet pilots may have industrial connotations but properly handled it is not necessarily a safety issue AT ALL. End of that story.
As for the Jetstar focus....in very recent times QF mainline crews destroyed a 747 at Bangkok, flew a 767 straight through a thunderstorm at OOL, descended way too close to terrain in a 737 near CCK, came very close to losing two 737s, one in an approach to BNE under a clearly evident microburst and the other to very simple incompetence in fuel management en-route to SYD.
Maybe it's time for a Senate Enquiry into QF mainline training and standards? Maybe QF's protected and privileged position has given their pilots and 217 system a cosy sense of invulnerability and smugness that needs a wake up call here and now before it gets any worse. Maybe?
Your descent into profanity is not welcomed in a professional arena. Grow up. Being offensive simply erodes your credibility.
Nor does complete subjectivity help your case. The use of cadet pilots may have industrial connotations but properly handled it is not necessarily a safety issue AT ALL. End of that story.
As for the Jetstar focus....in very recent times QF mainline crews destroyed a 747 at Bangkok, flew a 767 straight through a thunderstorm at OOL, descended way too close to terrain in a 737 near CCK, came very close to losing two 737s, one in an approach to BNE under a clearly evident microburst and the other to very simple incompetence in fuel management en-route to SYD.
Maybe it's time for a Senate Enquiry into QF mainline training and standards? Maybe QF's protected and privileged position has given their pilots and 217 system a cosy sense of invulnerability and smugness that needs a wake up call here and now before it gets any worse. Maybe?
It's now making news in the broadsheet papers -
Cost cutting eroding airline safety: Jetstar pilot trainer
Cost cutting eroding airline safety: Jetstar pilot trainer
Cost cutting eroding airline safety: Jetstar pilot trainer
February 15, 2011 - 4:48PM
Airline safety is being eroded as operators cut crew training time and other costs, a senior pilot trainer has warned.
Geoff Klouth, an A320 training captain with budget carrier Jetstar Airways, said a drop in training standards and checks had prompted him to make a submission to a Senate inquiry into airline safety.
"Safety margins that were a normal part of the aviation industries and which contributed to Australia's safety record have been and are being eroded to a point where airlines' safety can no longer be considered as a given," Mr Klouth told the inquiry in Canberra on Tuesday.
He said insufficient pilot and cabin crew training, poor rostering leading to increased fatigue and an overall reduction in resources were cause for concern.
Airlines had cut the training time for cabin crew and were relying more on cadet pilots to drive down their operating costs, Mr Klouth said.
Under the training system cadets effectively ended up paying an airline for their qualifications.
"The cadets at Jetstar I have just finished training, one of the cadets is getting paid in New Zealand dollars but is required to pay back his training in Australian dollars," he said.
The New Zealand currency has depreciated 6.4 per cent against the Australian dollar since June 30, 2010.
Mr Klouth said shortening the training time for cabin crew had implications for the operation of the aircraft and passenger safety.
"If you are crammed with six weeks' worth of knowledge in three weeks, it is inevitable that you are not going to be able to recall all the important pieces of information that you need to," he said.
Mr Klouth recommended to the committee that training for a commercial pilot's licence be a minimum of 1500 hours and all airlines should release their draft or final reports on safety incidents to the ATSB.
AAP
February 15, 2011 - 4:48PM
Airline safety is being eroded as operators cut crew training time and other costs, a senior pilot trainer has warned.
Geoff Klouth, an A320 training captain with budget carrier Jetstar Airways, said a drop in training standards and checks had prompted him to make a submission to a Senate inquiry into airline safety.
"Safety margins that were a normal part of the aviation industries and which contributed to Australia's safety record have been and are being eroded to a point where airlines' safety can no longer be considered as a given," Mr Klouth told the inquiry in Canberra on Tuesday.
He said insufficient pilot and cabin crew training, poor rostering leading to increased fatigue and an overall reduction in resources were cause for concern.
Airlines had cut the training time for cabin crew and were relying more on cadet pilots to drive down their operating costs, Mr Klouth said.
Under the training system cadets effectively ended up paying an airline for their qualifications.
"The cadets at Jetstar I have just finished training, one of the cadets is getting paid in New Zealand dollars but is required to pay back his training in Australian dollars," he said.
The New Zealand currency has depreciated 6.4 per cent against the Australian dollar since June 30, 2010.
Mr Klouth said shortening the training time for cabin crew had implications for the operation of the aircraft and passenger safety.
"If you are crammed with six weeks' worth of knowledge in three weeks, it is inevitable that you are not going to be able to recall all the important pieces of information that you need to," he said.
Mr Klouth recommended to the committee that training for a commercial pilot's licence be a minimum of 1500 hours and all airlines should release their draft or final reports on safety incidents to the ATSB.
AAP
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done Genex!
At the time when airline pilots in this country need to start uniting to keep the industry viable and stand up to increasingly vindictive management, you post more of your anti-Qantas vitriol.
At the time when airline pilots in this country need to start uniting to keep the industry viable and stand up to increasingly vindictive management, you post more of your anti-Qantas vitriol.
The problem is now that the precious mainline conditions etc are being threatened they suddenly want to unite.
They didn't want to know Qlink, Sunstate or the embryonic state of Jetstar a few years ago when they thought it wasn't going to effect them.
The wheel turns doesn't it
Try not to live in the past Ahab, and you might just have a future. Keep indulging the chip on you're shoulder and you'll be undercut as well.
None so blind as those who cannot see. In your case you cannot see that the only way that Jetstar (or any other Australian pilot for that matter) has a chance of preserving what they have now, is by supporting the Qantas case.
Keep bending over Ahab and you're just gonna keep getting shafted!!!
None so blind as those who cannot see. In your case you cannot see that the only way that Jetstar (or any other Australian pilot for that matter) has a chance of preserving what they have now, is by supporting the Qantas case.
Keep bending over Ahab and you're just gonna keep getting shafted!!!
Captahab
It’s not a statement of fact. It’s his/her opinion. I think you will also find if you do your homework that most of the posts and complaints about J* management are from J* pilots not QF though I am sure most QF drivers would support their stance.
genex
You want to prove that statement, after all it is an opinion of what you may think not a statement of fact.
By the way if you haven't already been told it is very bad Karma pointing the bone at another airlines mistakes especially when you can't even get the facts correct in the first place.
It’s not a statement of fact. It’s his/her opinion. I think you will also find if you do your homework that most of the posts and complaints about J* management are from J* pilots not QF though I am sure most QF drivers would support their stance.
genex
The use of cadet pilots may have industrial connotations but properly handled it is not necessarily a safety issue AT ALL. End of that story.
By the way if you haven't already been told it is very bad Karma pointing the bone at another airlines mistakes especially when you can't even get the facts correct in the first place.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 995
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Toss Parker - GOLD !!!!
I am very very pleased to see you extending your humour beyond the bounds of CX pi#s taking and into JQ ! Keep up the good work, i love it....
I am very very pleased to see you extending your humour beyond the bounds of CX pi#s taking and into JQ ! Keep up the good work, i love it....
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: gold coast QLD australia
Age: 86
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly this pilot has now been named on the SMH website. If I were you JQ, rather than condemn him (which is what you will do) and deny all, I suggest you read what he has to say, address the issue, and then assure the public any complaints from pilots are a serious matter, and the company takes them seriously and the matter will be addressed. (If only).
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genex. Now isn't the time for your usual anti QF slanging. Just don't bother.
Agreed, Teresa. Makes a nice change, doesn't it? 
Sadly this pilot has now been named on the SMH website. If I were you JQ, rather than condemn him (which is what you will do) and deny all, I suggest you read what he has to say, address the issue, and then assure the public any complaints from pilots are a serious matter, and the company takes them seriously and the matter will be addressed. (If only).
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We haven't got to the end of page 2 and already you can see how airline management has managed to rape and pillage their flight crews. Gentlemen, and I use the term advisedly, there is little to be gained by finger pointing and insulting each other - the common enemy is elsewhere. Continued sniping at each other only allows the companies to divide and rule.
Jaba, Capt Klouth has confirmed something that was related to me by a Jetstar employee that Jetstar has contracted for the lowest cost training and A320 endorsement possible. There is no allowance for more detailed training due to of the lack of experience by the cadets.
Jaba, Capt Klouth has confirmed something that was related to me by a Jetstar employee that Jetstar has contracted for the lowest cost training and A320 endorsement possible. There is no allowance for more detailed training due to of the lack of experience by the cadets.
Last edited by PLovett; 15th Feb 2011 at 10:29. Reason: A bit of extra knowledge
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He has confirmed something that was related to me by a Jetstar employee that Jetstar has contracted for the lowest cost training and A320 endorsement possible.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentlemen,
I live for a lot more than to indulge in slanging at anyone. I have a lot of QF shares and no desire to bucket them, my fellow pilots or indeed anyone else-even those who find themselves rather short of civility and apparently of experience as well.
The issue of cadets has many facets and safety will only arise as one of them if training is neglected or rushed. That is a fact and well proven. If the general contention is that there is something inherent within JQ that it will necessarily neglect or rush the cadet training then that issue and that alone must be raised. That cadets may or may not be faced with impoverishment is a choice for them to make. Qantas pilots had a chance to get a scope clause many moons back....didn't have the strength to act to secure their future then and now cadets and off-shore T & C are a fact.
As for the QF incidents. They are facts, not slanging. I am sad that they happened. I'd be sad if they happened to any other carrier too. There is no joy in ineptness ever, specially in a cockpit with live bodies down the back. The ATSB slammed Qantas after BKK just as they should have and just as I hope they do for any other carrier whose pilots similarly stuff up. That's any carrier from NASA to Air Bazurkistan. The point I was trying to make was that this stuff happens to all carriers. Some of the notable recent clangers have come from major established carriers: Air France (Toronto), Southwest (Midway), American (Jamaica). It is a very foolish pilot who only ever points the fingers at others. Humility may not be a popularly understood attribute for good pilots to develop: it is however indispensable for good pilots to be say often: "There but for the grace of God go I"....I cannot find it within my capability to see any difference between a near hull loss on a poorly flown go-around and a near hull loss on a go around from an approach that should never have been attempted. Both are poor piloting whoever was at the controls and whatever logo is on the tail.
Unity is the only future pilots have.....but right now there are precious few believers of that concept even in pilot ranks. The truth is that the forces arrayed against a "good" group-wide outcome for pilots are probably darker, well-led and more unified than was even the case in 1989.
Good luck.
I live for a lot more than to indulge in slanging at anyone. I have a lot of QF shares and no desire to bucket them, my fellow pilots or indeed anyone else-even those who find themselves rather short of civility and apparently of experience as well.
The issue of cadets has many facets and safety will only arise as one of them if training is neglected or rushed. That is a fact and well proven. If the general contention is that there is something inherent within JQ that it will necessarily neglect or rush the cadet training then that issue and that alone must be raised. That cadets may or may not be faced with impoverishment is a choice for them to make. Qantas pilots had a chance to get a scope clause many moons back....didn't have the strength to act to secure their future then and now cadets and off-shore T & C are a fact.
As for the QF incidents. They are facts, not slanging. I am sad that they happened. I'd be sad if they happened to any other carrier too. There is no joy in ineptness ever, specially in a cockpit with live bodies down the back. The ATSB slammed Qantas after BKK just as they should have and just as I hope they do for any other carrier whose pilots similarly stuff up. That's any carrier from NASA to Air Bazurkistan. The point I was trying to make was that this stuff happens to all carriers. Some of the notable recent clangers have come from major established carriers: Air France (Toronto), Southwest (Midway), American (Jamaica). It is a very foolish pilot who only ever points the fingers at others. Humility may not be a popularly understood attribute for good pilots to develop: it is however indispensable for good pilots to be say often: "There but for the grace of God go I"....I cannot find it within my capability to see any difference between a near hull loss on a poorly flown go-around and a near hull loss on a go around from an approach that should never have been attempted. Both are poor piloting whoever was at the controls and whatever logo is on the tail.
Unity is the only future pilots have.....but right now there are precious few believers of that concept even in pilot ranks. The truth is that the forces arrayed against a "good" group-wide outcome for pilots are probably darker, well-led and more unified than was even the case in 1989.
Good luck.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Outbound
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shell managemmmmmnt wrote
Ahh the European LCC chestnut.
Are you familiar with the stickshaker incident at Bordeaux, which happened during a circling approach?
Or the circling approach that was done on the wrong side, at another airport,only two of many close call instances that never make the papers or fare paying public, where inexperienced European LCC style pilots were at the controls?
No I didn't think so but you keep to your statistical approach to safety!
So why is it that a British LCC such as Easyjet is considered to be proactive on safety but in Australia a LCC is a threat to safety?
Are you familiar with the stickshaker incident at Bordeaux, which happened during a circling approach?
Or the circling approach that was done on the wrong side, at another airport,only two of many close call instances that never make the papers or fare paying public, where inexperienced European LCC style pilots were at the controls?
No I didn't think so but you keep to your statistical approach to safety!
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: FL350
Age: 37
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Congratulations GK there should be more pilots like you, you are an inspiration
to the future of all pilots in Australia.
We need more pilots like yourself to stand up to these so called bean counters, and of course THE so called MANAGEMENT of these low cost airlines.
Keep up the good work..
Capt T D
to the future of all pilots in Australia.
We need more pilots like yourself to stand up to these so called bean counters, and of course THE so called MANAGEMENT of these low cost airlines.
Keep up the good work..
Capt T D