Qantas paid Jetconnects' bills, hearing told
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Fundamentally perused last years financial report and there is no mention that I could find of revenue or profit from Jetconnect. In fact Jetconnect is only mentioned several times which was all very odd. No seperate breakdown of ASKs or EBIT nothing zip zilch to chew on. The amount Qantas saves by having this nefarious setup sham is bugger all considering shorthaul 737 pilots aren't doing much and could easily do 10 hours per month more! Same for the 767 even more so. What's the real reason. Industrial tension and leverage for 787 crewing. That's the perhaps the underlying game plan IMHO. Even cheaper than J*. How do you get a Qantas Jet command in less than 5 years? Easy join Jetconnect and bypass our selection process and 10-15 years minimum as a S/O and then F/O prior to command. Can't understand why we would be pissed off.
What's the real reason.
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they will be crawling all over The Rat quicker than The Leprepchaun crawling over broken glass and a fire ant nest to grab his next unwarranted and farcical bonus.
Gobbledock
Take a bow.....
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.... they operate at a much lower cost base than mainline and so make more money and remain financially viable in the process .... Qantas subsidiaries are currently propping up mainline and delaying the inevitable.
How do you get a Qantas Jet command in less than 5 years? Easy join Jetconnect and bypass our selection process and 10-15 years minimum as a S/O and then F/O prior to command.
What satellite are some people living on?
If all Qantas subsidiary employees were paid at mainline rates then the whole group would be bankrupt within a year,
The problem as to why Qantas is in trouble now is due to years of mismanagement by people from the board level down who do not have a clue what they are doing.
Having said the above to correct the ranting of the lunatic I quoted above: Make no mistake, the only thing the mainline body of Qantas pilots wants is job security. That is all.
Last edited by regitaekilthgiwt; 13th Feb 2011 at 22:27.
Qantas ‘We also call Auckland home’ – Plane Talking
Qantas ‘We also call Auckland home’ – Plane Talking
Qantas ‘We also call Auckland home’
February 13, 2011 – 11:55 am, by Ben Sandilands
Qantas will be a big story this week because of pilot anger over pay negotiations, because of signals from management that international is bleeding money, and because of the filing of its half year to December 31 financial results this Thursday morning.
But there is another element, the Jetconnect case that has been brought against Qantas in Fair Work Australia.
Jetconnect, which is a 100 per cent owned NZ subsidiary, has taken over the routine full service Qantas flying between Australian and New Zealand in Boeing 737-800s.
This is a very important case. So much so Qantas is said to have directly approached politicians in Canberra to consider changes to laws that apply to foreign based Qantas pilots if it loses.
The fair reporting of legal disputes is difficult to assure in contemporary media.
In the legacy media, the evidence given in a case in an open hearing is privileged, but the media can be held to account for fair and accurate reporting, requiring both sides of the hearing to be reported, which in part heard cases or reserved (pending) decisions, no longer happens because the media, in 99 per cent of cases, cannot afford court reporters who will spend all day in a hearing.
If the Qantas ‘dingo’ had taken the union ‘baby’ this would not be a problem. Every syllable would be printed. We might even get televised proceedings.
So at this stage, a commentary on the Jetconnect case would be unfair. It will only become fair when a balanced account of a Fair Work Australia decision is published in the media, or made available on line in full, whenever a ruling is made.
What follows is an attempt to be fair.
The case which is in its closing stages was brought by the Australian and International Pilots Association against Qantas alleging that Jetconnect, which flies jets in Qantas colors between Australia and New Zealand, is a shell company set up to evade the terms and conditions of Australian awards by pretending to be a New Zealand subsidiary of the Qantas group.
It claims that this allows Qantas to export what were Australian jobs to New Zealand and save 40 per cent off the labor expense.
Qantas counter claims that Jetconnect is a New Zealand operation not controlled by Qantas but which employs pilots based in New Zealand.
However early this month Jetconnect’s chief executive officer, Paul Daff, told Fair Work Australia that the NZ company did not have any of its own bank accounts that he could remember, that Qantas moved funds into and out of the company without reference to himself, and that employees, which include Australian pilots living in New Zealand, were paid directly by Qantas.
The pilots are trained by Qantas, wear Qantas uniforms, and fly in jets painted in Qantas livery which are owned by Qantas.
It is fair to say that if the pilot union wins the case it could collapse the Qantas strategy of basing Australian registered Jetstar A330 jets, and its future 787 fleet, in Singapore to be flown by Australian and non Australian pilots under Singaporean labor arrangements.
This Thursday’s half yearly results briefing for media and analysts is shaping up a trying one for Qantas group CEO Alan Joyce.
He has already announced that international Qantas services are unsustainable and complained about foreign competition.
However Qantas is also caught up in problems of its own making, including failed fleet planning oversight, poor networking and scheduling decisions, and the loss of control over the quality and competency of heavy engine overhauls on Rolls-Royce power plants.
Qantas ‘We also call Auckland home’
February 13, 2011 – 11:55 am, by Ben Sandilands
Qantas will be a big story this week because of pilot anger over pay negotiations, because of signals from management that international is bleeding money, and because of the filing of its half year to December 31 financial results this Thursday morning.
But there is another element, the Jetconnect case that has been brought against Qantas in Fair Work Australia.
Jetconnect, which is a 100 per cent owned NZ subsidiary, has taken over the routine full service Qantas flying between Australian and New Zealand in Boeing 737-800s.
This is a very important case. So much so Qantas is said to have directly approached politicians in Canberra to consider changes to laws that apply to foreign based Qantas pilots if it loses.
The fair reporting of legal disputes is difficult to assure in contemporary media.
In the legacy media, the evidence given in a case in an open hearing is privileged, but the media can be held to account for fair and accurate reporting, requiring both sides of the hearing to be reported, which in part heard cases or reserved (pending) decisions, no longer happens because the media, in 99 per cent of cases, cannot afford court reporters who will spend all day in a hearing.
If the Qantas ‘dingo’ had taken the union ‘baby’ this would not be a problem. Every syllable would be printed. We might even get televised proceedings.
So at this stage, a commentary on the Jetconnect case would be unfair. It will only become fair when a balanced account of a Fair Work Australia decision is published in the media, or made available on line in full, whenever a ruling is made.
What follows is an attempt to be fair.
The case which is in its closing stages was brought by the Australian and International Pilots Association against Qantas alleging that Jetconnect, which flies jets in Qantas colors between Australia and New Zealand, is a shell company set up to evade the terms and conditions of Australian awards by pretending to be a New Zealand subsidiary of the Qantas group.
It claims that this allows Qantas to export what were Australian jobs to New Zealand and save 40 per cent off the labor expense.
Qantas counter claims that Jetconnect is a New Zealand operation not controlled by Qantas but which employs pilots based in New Zealand.
However early this month Jetconnect’s chief executive officer, Paul Daff, told Fair Work Australia that the NZ company did not have any of its own bank accounts that he could remember, that Qantas moved funds into and out of the company without reference to himself, and that employees, which include Australian pilots living in New Zealand, were paid directly by Qantas.
The pilots are trained by Qantas, wear Qantas uniforms, and fly in jets painted in Qantas livery which are owned by Qantas.
It is fair to say that if the pilot union wins the case it could collapse the Qantas strategy of basing Australian registered Jetstar A330 jets, and its future 787 fleet, in Singapore to be flown by Australian and non Australian pilots under Singaporean labor arrangements.
This Thursday’s half yearly results briefing for media and analysts is shaping up a trying one for Qantas group CEO Alan Joyce.
He has already announced that international Qantas services are unsustainable and complained about foreign competition.
However Qantas is also caught up in problems of its own making, including failed fleet planning oversight, poor networking and scheduling decisions, and the loss of control over the quality and competency of heavy engine overhauls on Rolls-Royce power plants.
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White collar crime.
Is it just my imagination or are some of the various "managers" in this industry engaging in white collar crime? We're attracting all the dregs of the Cornflakes Management School. All the losers that couldn't get into Leighton or BHP. Bullying, fudging figures, cartels and inflating share prices. Its not just at QF might I add.
Unfortunately in Orztralia this gets ignored by the likes of ASIC, CASA or the ATO. They prefer individual tax paying citizens as they don't have as much money to back themselves in a fight (occasionally they pick the wrong individual and thats been a source of a hearty belly laugh). Wasn't it FMG recently that pulled ASIC's pants down and gave them a good bare bottom spanking with some reasonably good lawyers? Its all about the image, bottom line and financial backing and not justice. I think Paul Hogans having a go now with the ATO. Pants down.
I'd like to see 4 Corners and/or a Xenophon type expose these types one by one. A nice big electron microscope on every single dollar, trade and industrial agreement. A team of forensic accountants that travel from company to company auditing the figures mums and dad base their day trading on.
Who knows maybe its time for a few people to visit the big house.
Unfortunately in Orztralia this gets ignored by the likes of ASIC, CASA or the ATO. They prefer individual tax paying citizens as they don't have as much money to back themselves in a fight (occasionally they pick the wrong individual and thats been a source of a hearty belly laugh). Wasn't it FMG recently that pulled ASIC's pants down and gave them a good bare bottom spanking with some reasonably good lawyers? Its all about the image, bottom line and financial backing and not justice. I think Paul Hogans having a go now with the ATO. Pants down.
I'd like to see 4 Corners and/or a Xenophon type expose these types one by one. A nice big electron microscope on every single dollar, trade and industrial agreement. A team of forensic accountants that travel from company to company auditing the figures mums and dad base their day trading on.
Who knows maybe its time for a few people to visit the big house.
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Jetconnect - The airline without engineers!
As Qantas engineers are off to Seattle to pick up the new 737's.
Air NZ engineers maintain & dispatch Jeconnect from NZ, Qantas Engineers maintain & dispatch Jetconnect from Australia.
Curious who pays those wages & maintenance bills?
As Qantas engineers are off to Seattle to pick up the new 737's.
Air NZ engineers maintain & dispatch Jeconnect from NZ, Qantas Engineers maintain & dispatch Jetconnect from Australia.
Curious who pays those wages & maintenance bills?
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Akl Qf 787
Had heard a similar rumour from inside Jetconnect that management has been dropping the 787 into conversation.
It will be interesting to see the outcome in Oz of the FWA, do they have the coconuts or will the pollies balls it up.
My understanding is if AIPA win, and after countless appeals still win, then the flying will remain at Jetconnect, but some security/growth/seniority provisions will ensure that continued outsourcing will stop and current levels maintained.
Good luck AIPA with your fight for security provisions as this is one you can not afford to lose.
It will be interesting to see the outcome in Oz of the FWA, do they have the coconuts or will the pollies balls it up.
My understanding is if AIPA win, and after countless appeals still win, then the flying will remain at Jetconnect, but some security/growth/seniority provisions will ensure that continued outsourcing will stop and current levels maintained.
Good luck AIPA with your fight for security provisions as this is one you can not afford to lose.
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Nice theory Kiwilad,
One problem though, is that this case is to be determined by a full bench of the commission so that there is no appeals process available.
The ruling whatever it may be will be binding and final.
One problem though, is that this case is to be determined by a full bench of the commission so that there is no appeals process available.
The ruling whatever it may be will be binding and final.
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Fingers crossed that FWA see's sense and the right decision is made for the sake of every QF/Q-Link/JQ staff member.
This also extends to every other Australian industry who relies on their Aussie "name" and "spirit" to build a great and reputable buisness then decide to say, thanks Australia I'm now moving OS now where everything is cheaper, but still call themselves Australian.
This also extends to every other Australian industry who relies on their Aussie "name" and "spirit" to build a great and reputable buisness then decide to say, thanks Australia I'm now moving OS now where everything is cheaper, but still call themselves Australian.
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One problem though, is that this case is to be determined by a full bench of the commission so that there is no appeals process available.
The ruling whatever it may be will be binding and final
The ruling whatever it may be will be binding and final
Does anyone know where this is up to. Last I heard there was supposed to be a hearing on the 23rd of Feb.
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Final and Binding??
Folks,
I don't think there is any legal jurisdiction in Australia that gives "final and binding" judgements other than the High Court, certainly not any Commission or Tribunal.
Stay Alive,
I don't think there is any legal jurisdiction in Australia that gives "final and binding" judgements other than the High Court, certainly not any Commission or Tribunal.
Stay Alive,
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Anyone else read Steve Creedy's article in The Australian today. Summarising a few points from teh ACTU submission to the FWA matter
ACTU hits out over Qantas offshore jobs | The Australian
ACTU hits out over Qantas offshore jobs | The Australian
THE ACTU has has made a final plea to Fair Work Australia to "put a brake" on attempts to use artificial corporate arrangements for offshore jobs and avoid Australian award requirements.
In its final submission in a test case between the Australian and International Pilots Association and Qantas New Zealand subsidiary Jetconnect, the ACTU said evidence had borne out its suspicions that the New Zealand operation was a "sham employer" and its pilots were actually employed by Qantas.
"This case will set an important precedent on the offshoring of Australian jobs and the avoidance of award entitlements through the use of artificial corporate arrangements," the submission says.
"The ACTU urges the tribunal to put a brake on these practices by granting the remedy sought by the applicants."
The case is the latest chapter in a long-running dispute between the airline and its pilots about job security and moves to set up overseas subsidiaries.
The pilots argue the moves are an attempt to undercut Australian pay and conditions and have made job security a central issue in the latest long-haul enterprise bargaining agreement negotiations.
The issue has also been raised in Senate hearings into pilot training that are due to resume in Canberra today.
But Qantas says subsidiaries such as Jetconnect are necessary to allow it to compete at the same level as local operators.
ACTU secretary Jeff Lawrence said the unions were arguing Jetconnect was not a real airline and that it had no planes, no customers and no real assets.
"By using this sham arrangement, Qantas is paying wages to the Jetconnect pilots that are almost 40 per cent lower than they would be obliged to pay under the Qantas agreement," he said.
"This is despite the fact that the evidence shows the pilots are trained by Qantas, wear Qantas uniforms, and fly Qantas planes on Qantas routes bearing the Qantas logo."
A Qantas spokeswoman said that Jetconnect, while a 100 per cent Qantas-owned subsidiary, was based in New Zealand and therefore under New Zealand jurisdiction.
"It employs New Zealand pilots and it's a New Zealand operation with aircraft registered in the country," she said. "Therefore, we don't think there is any substance to the claims made by the ACTU."
In its final submission in a test case between the Australian and International Pilots Association and Qantas New Zealand subsidiary Jetconnect, the ACTU said evidence had borne out its suspicions that the New Zealand operation was a "sham employer" and its pilots were actually employed by Qantas.
"This case will set an important precedent on the offshoring of Australian jobs and the avoidance of award entitlements through the use of artificial corporate arrangements," the submission says.
"The ACTU urges the tribunal to put a brake on these practices by granting the remedy sought by the applicants."
The case is the latest chapter in a long-running dispute between the airline and its pilots about job security and moves to set up overseas subsidiaries.
The pilots argue the moves are an attempt to undercut Australian pay and conditions and have made job security a central issue in the latest long-haul enterprise bargaining agreement negotiations.
The issue has also been raised in Senate hearings into pilot training that are due to resume in Canberra today.
But Qantas says subsidiaries such as Jetconnect are necessary to allow it to compete at the same level as local operators.
ACTU secretary Jeff Lawrence said the unions were arguing Jetconnect was not a real airline and that it had no planes, no customers and no real assets.
"By using this sham arrangement, Qantas is paying wages to the Jetconnect pilots that are almost 40 per cent lower than they would be obliged to pay under the Qantas agreement," he said.
"This is despite the fact that the evidence shows the pilots are trained by Qantas, wear Qantas uniforms, and fly Qantas planes on Qantas routes bearing the Qantas logo."
A Qantas spokeswoman said that Jetconnect, while a 100 per cent Qantas-owned subsidiary, was based in New Zealand and therefore under New Zealand jurisdiction.
"It employs New Zealand pilots and it's a New Zealand operation with aircraft registered in the country," she said. "Therefore, we don't think there is any substance to the claims made by the ACTU."
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Will the outcome of this case set a precedent for QCCA crew, as the jetconnect scenario sounds remarkably similar to the tactics used to employ QCCA crew.
QCCA was formed as a Qantas subsidiary to allow for drastic cuts in cabin crew salaries and conditions?
QCCA crew wear the Qantas uniform, work on qantas aircraft , but yet are not employed by Qantas (when it suits the company.) Additionally, they literally sit next to and work alongside QAL crew who are on around 50% more pay and doing 50 less hours per roster.
What do you think the implications of this case will mean for QCCA?
QCCA was formed as a Qantas subsidiary to allow for drastic cuts in cabin crew salaries and conditions?
QCCA crew wear the Qantas uniform, work on qantas aircraft , but yet are not employed by Qantas (when it suits the company.) Additionally, they literally sit next to and work alongside QAL crew who are on around 50% more pay and doing 50 less hours per roster.
What do you think the implications of this case will mean for QCCA?