Jon Stevens INXS behaviour - Jetstar shines.
Thread Starter
an experienced person should be able to use their skills to determine the difference
As a matter of interest how much training was provided to you by your employer in how to A. assess if someone is intoxicated and B. how to deal with them?
If Jetstar CC undergo a 15 day ground school and four days line training, how much training do they receive in making this judgement?
I ask this because one day you may have to justify a decision you make in court and I believe the lack of training is a major risk for aviation operators.
Thread Starter
Mr Citizen I believe that you have summed up the issue nicely. One of those things happened.
However, one thing sticks in my mind. IF Mr Stevens had been a bad boy to such a degree as to be offloaded I would have thought that he would be charged with failing to follow the directions of flight crew. This does not seem to have happened. Which leaves the truth as only known to two people.
However, one thing sticks in my mind. IF Mr Stevens had been a bad boy to such a degree as to be offloaded I would have thought that he would be charged with failing to follow the directions of flight crew. This does not seem to have happened. Which leaves the truth as only known to two people.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: qld
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My family and I were passengers on that flight and were seated immediately behind him in the 4th. row. While I have a current dispute with Jetstar in relation to additional charges which I believe were unfairly imposed on us at the airport due to a misunderstanding relating to the flight departure date, the steward involved and his manager on the flight were in my opinion totally justified in their actions.
Jon entered the aircraft just before the door was shut and he and his associate were provided the best seats available on a very crampy plane - row 1.
He sat at the window seat and his friend sat in the aisle seat, the middle seat remaining vacant. The cabin crew seemed to be very accommodating to both of them when they first embarked, and it wasn't until he decided to move to the 2nd. aisle just before the plane began to taxi to the runway that things changed.
The steward then asked him to resume his allocated seat as the plane was about to take off, and he refused. The steward then explained to him that once the take off had been completed and the seat belt signs had been turned off [ which he estimated would take between 5-10 minutes] he was welcome to sit in that seat if he wished but because the pilot had "balanced" the plane he had to resume his allocated seat during take off.
He continued to argue, and finally stood up and went back to the front aisle. He then instructed his friend who was sitting in the aisle seat to move into the window seat. Once he sat down in his friend's seat he continued to argue with the steward. I assume they continued to try and convince him to go back to his seat.
Just as the flight was beginning to taxi to the runway the steward and his manager obviously decided that his attitude [which I believe was confrontational to the point of being considered aggressive] was of concern and they communicated with the pilot.
I assume it was the pilot's decision, not the steward's, to return to the terminal and have him removed from the aircraft.
When the plane returned to the terminal the door was opened and shortly afterwards 3 Qantas security personnel arrived, and they asked him several times to vacate the aircraft, which he refused to do.
They then left the plane, and I assume it was they who requested the assistance of the Federal Police officers, who on arrival eventually convinced him that he had no option but to leave the plane.
His "f%&k you" attitude caused the rest of the passengers a delay of between 1-1.5 hours, so I guess it should be him apologising to the remaining passengers [who incidentally broke out into a very vocal cheer when he left the aircraft] for disrupting their travel plans instead of him expecting [demanding] an apology from Jetstar.
Jon entered the aircraft just before the door was shut and he and his associate were provided the best seats available on a very crampy plane - row 1.
He sat at the window seat and his friend sat in the aisle seat, the middle seat remaining vacant. The cabin crew seemed to be very accommodating to both of them when they first embarked, and it wasn't until he decided to move to the 2nd. aisle just before the plane began to taxi to the runway that things changed.
The steward then asked him to resume his allocated seat as the plane was about to take off, and he refused. The steward then explained to him that once the take off had been completed and the seat belt signs had been turned off [ which he estimated would take between 5-10 minutes] he was welcome to sit in that seat if he wished but because the pilot had "balanced" the plane he had to resume his allocated seat during take off.
He continued to argue, and finally stood up and went back to the front aisle. He then instructed his friend who was sitting in the aisle seat to move into the window seat. Once he sat down in his friend's seat he continued to argue with the steward. I assume they continued to try and convince him to go back to his seat.
Just as the flight was beginning to taxi to the runway the steward and his manager obviously decided that his attitude [which I believe was confrontational to the point of being considered aggressive] was of concern and they communicated with the pilot.
I assume it was the pilot's decision, not the steward's, to return to the terminal and have him removed from the aircraft.
When the plane returned to the terminal the door was opened and shortly afterwards 3 Qantas security personnel arrived, and they asked him several times to vacate the aircraft, which he refused to do.
They then left the plane, and I assume it was they who requested the assistance of the Federal Police officers, who on arrival eventually convinced him that he had no option but to leave the plane.
His "f%&k you" attitude caused the rest of the passengers a delay of between 1-1.5 hours, so I guess it should be him apologising to the remaining passengers [who incidentally broke out into a very vocal cheer when he left the aircraft] for disrupting their travel plans instead of him expecting [demanding] an apology from Jetstar.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
5 Posts
Thanks BBB. Are you saying though that all he did was move from the window seat to the middle seat in the same row? Or did he move from row one to row two? Your post is a little ambiguous on that point.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
crew are trained to look for the symptoms of possible intoxication. For legal reasons we do not suggest or accuse someone of either being drunk or intoxicated as this can only be determined by proper testing.
If you are however displaying signs of intoxication that cannot be explained by something else, then we will refuse service of alcohol as a precaution.
To be quite frank on an aircraft you are legally required to follow the Captains directions. For failing to follow a Captains lawful directions whether you like it or not you can be fined and jailed.
These laws are there for good and cogent reasons and often to protect idiots from themselves.
Rarely do we need to refuse alcohol but when we do the captains word is god on an aircraft. and the cabin crew act with (by law) the delegated authority of the Captain.
If a flight attendant allowed a passenger to conduct themselves in an unruly manner and other passengers complained it would be the crew whose jobs are on the line for breaking the law and allowing an intoxicated passenger to enter an aircraft or serving them further alcohol to the point of intoxication.
All responsible airlines observe responsible service of alcohol.
In terms of the issue of changing seats..... the captain must authorise all seat changes before take off. An aircraft is loading with freight and passengers (SLF) for weight and balance. Whilst it is unlilkey that a single passenger movement on a wide body aircraft would make significant difference to weight and balance, the rules are there for a reason and crew must be obeyed.
I would probably have let this issue go if the pax had moved back to his correct seat even if he had been a bit "mouthy" unless he was swearing etc
I dont take it personally when people get irritated by the rules as i can understand he might have been a little embarrassed as huge egos dont like to be told what to do and usually we are pretty good at massaging those egos.
what you will find however is that on budget carriers there is little place for passengers let alone larger egos and the crew are paid less than a tram conductor and really wont take any crap from anyone. As a jetstar flight attendant said to me recently for 35K a year I am going to do my best to look after them but at the end of the day, we are a budget carrier, if they want 5 star service dont catch a flying bus....
If you are however displaying signs of intoxication that cannot be explained by something else, then we will refuse service of alcohol as a precaution.
To be quite frank on an aircraft you are legally required to follow the Captains directions. For failing to follow a Captains lawful directions whether you like it or not you can be fined and jailed.
These laws are there for good and cogent reasons and often to protect idiots from themselves.
Rarely do we need to refuse alcohol but when we do the captains word is god on an aircraft. and the cabin crew act with (by law) the delegated authority of the Captain.
If a flight attendant allowed a passenger to conduct themselves in an unruly manner and other passengers complained it would be the crew whose jobs are on the line for breaking the law and allowing an intoxicated passenger to enter an aircraft or serving them further alcohol to the point of intoxication.
All responsible airlines observe responsible service of alcohol.
In terms of the issue of changing seats..... the captain must authorise all seat changes before take off. An aircraft is loading with freight and passengers (SLF) for weight and balance. Whilst it is unlilkey that a single passenger movement on a wide body aircraft would make significant difference to weight and balance, the rules are there for a reason and crew must be obeyed.
I would probably have let this issue go if the pax had moved back to his correct seat even if he had been a bit "mouthy" unless he was swearing etc
I dont take it personally when people get irritated by the rules as i can understand he might have been a little embarrassed as huge egos dont like to be told what to do and usually we are pretty good at massaging those egos.
what you will find however is that on budget carriers there is little place for passengers let alone larger egos and the crew are paid less than a tram conductor and really wont take any crap from anyone. As a jetstar flight attendant said to me recently for 35K a year I am going to do my best to look after them but at the end of the day, we are a budget carrier, if they want 5 star service dont catch a flying bus....
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Darwin
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Claret
Wasn't PK was it? Was DN now at the Rock. 
Quite often CS Staff don't even sight pax if they use web check & have no bags. Some conceal it well at boarding & it may not be until they get onboard that's it's apparent when they sit in the wrong seat etc.
A common scenario is a group of rigpigs or miners arrive in DRW off a Metro from Truscott, Dili or The Granites then proceed to checkin at 1030 sober as a judge but they've got 4 hours to kill before their 1420 flight back to PER. You don't know what they're going to be like by the time the flight starts boarding.
Last night a guy who was thru checked from GOV with 2 bags on DRW/SYD flight was a fail to board. The boys hold all GOV bags to one side & load last as frequently these mining folk lob in DRW then get a cab directly to Shennanigans. When pax was offloaded bags were located quickly & flight off blocks 5 early.
An aircraft like the A320 which is containerised is a PITA when you have to locate a bag compared to the 737 or 767 when you can just chuck something in the bulkhold last minute.
Or a port in northern Australia, radio on Co. frequency squarks to life, "argh ABC the last bloke to board's pissed but we reckon he'll be ok".
Quite often CS Staff don't even sight pax if they use web check & have no bags. Some conceal it well at boarding & it may not be until they get onboard that's it's apparent when they sit in the wrong seat etc.
A common scenario is a group of rigpigs or miners arrive in DRW off a Metro from Truscott, Dili or The Granites then proceed to checkin at 1030 sober as a judge but they've got 4 hours to kill before their 1420 flight back to PER. You don't know what they're going to be like by the time the flight starts boarding.
Last night a guy who was thru checked from GOV with 2 bags on DRW/SYD flight was a fail to board. The boys hold all GOV bags to one side & load last as frequently these mining folk lob in DRW then get a cab directly to Shennanigans. When pax was offloaded bags were located quickly & flight off blocks 5 early.
An aircraft like the A320 which is containerised is a PITA when you have to locate a bag compared to the 737 or 767 when you can just chuck something in the bulkhold last minute.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In My Imagination
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's definitely a fine art to RSA. Cutting someone off without warning, telling someone they've "had too much" or worst of all telling someone they're drunk or intoxicated are 3 certain ways to get them offside. If you're at the stage where you have to do the above then you've failed in the S of the RSA. RSA may be a law but it's also a duty of care. Alot of the pax I serve want to have 2 drinks fairly quickly so they can settle down and sleep. You can spot instantly the ones on a mission. Communicate with the other crew, pour floaters, drop off water to them and pace their drinks. Avoid getting to the stage where you have to tell them they can't have more drinks bc you've failed in the alcohol service. They're a captive audience and unless they're drinking their own booze then it should be a controllable situation. ( add sleeping tablets, pre departure drinks, altitude and emotions and it's gets a little more complicated )
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: qld
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He moved from the window seat in row 1 to the window seat in row 2. After the steward asked him to resume his allocated seat for take-off, he moved back to row 1 but told his friend to move into the window seat and he sat in the aisle seat.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Faulconbridge
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the situation was that bad for a decision to be made to offload this PAX then Jetstar has to maintain a firm stand and insist that he be processed through the Courts. You can't have it both ways. These decisions must be challenged by an independent authority. This would then highlight perceived lack of CC training/ experience etc and also make the general public aware of what is the correct protocol for airline travel in relation to conduct and the consumption of alcohol.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harden up and dry your eyes.
Expecting Singapore Airline Kris Flyer Business Class level flight attendants at J* is a bit much JS. You get what you pay for. They're tired, overworked and make less than teenagers working at macdonalds. Hardly a recipe for diplomacy and one on one counselling when you decide you want a row to yourself.
You pay $49 ala Magda? The rule is : Get in, sit down and shut up. Get used to it Australian traveller.
One cup of cement please.
You pay $49 ala Magda? The rule is : Get in, sit down and shut up. Get used to it Australian traveller.
One cup of cement please.
Thread Starter
I agree completely with highland cow. If it bad enough to return to the gate and call the police, then have the person charged and let's see what happened via witness statements etc.
That would help solve the problem of both ratbag passengers and ratbag cabin crew.
That would help solve the problem of both ratbag passengers and ratbag cabin crew.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
at a pub or restaurant if someone is a nuisance you ask them to leave. If they wont you get the police and they ask them to leave.
not everyone gets charged.
disobey a rule on an aircraft and you cant call a bouncer or the police at 40k feet so you just do as your told it's not that hard and the rest of the passengers usually support the crew 150%
Never had a passenger complaint for cutting off the booze or telling a pax to pull their head in, except of course for the punter who gets told is the experience of 90% of my colleagues.
Rule number 1 do what the Captain and crew tell you.
Rule number 2 .. always follow rule number one
Aircraft are not a shop, restaurant or pub.. the rules are there for a reason.
99.9999% of pax travel without problems and the idiots can fly with someone else as i dont want them on my flight or need them. and neither do the rest of our passengers.
not everyone gets charged.
disobey a rule on an aircraft and you cant call a bouncer or the police at 40k feet so you just do as your told it's not that hard and the rest of the passengers usually support the crew 150%
Never had a passenger complaint for cutting off the booze or telling a pax to pull their head in, except of course for the punter who gets told is the experience of 90% of my colleagues.
Rule number 1 do what the Captain and crew tell you.
Rule number 2 .. always follow rule number one
Aircraft are not a shop, restaurant or pub.. the rules are there for a reason.
99.9999% of pax travel without problems and the idiots can fly with someone else as i dont want them on my flight or need them. and neither do the rest of our passengers.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Greta
Age: 67
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Had to go to Melbourne a couple of weeks ago, so as i had a bit of extra time i decided to go by train, just for something different. Hey looky no one tried to grab me on the nuts or try to rip me off for my bag being half a kg over weight. Hey i weigh 60 kg, what pax weight is used for W&B? 75/80kg? were's my refund? no one treated me like i'm some sort of potential problem none complained when i moved seats. i watched a movie. was served better food used cleaner facilities. had a nice sleep, and the staff actually smiled and never once told me to turn off my phone. MacBank was no where in sight trying to make a quid out of me for either parking or using a cab. i'll be making time to travel this way again. cabin crew and pilots should remove head from ass.
Thread Starter
Fencehopper, that attitude is starting to prevail in Europe too. You can head on down to the platform 10 minutes before departure. Non of this allowing 90 minutes for the BS that is between the front door of the airport and the front door of the aircraft.
Time poor people can actually save time in Europe on high speed trains, that is why they are becoming flavour of the month. Here in this country we cannot agree that a high speed rail between Melbourne and Sydney is a necessity not a luxury. Yes there are hills in the way, especially to go via Canberra but guess what, Europe has mountains not hills and they manage.
It takes about two hours to drive Sydney - Canberra right? So allow a thirty minute drive to the airport followed by a forty five minute check in and a thirty minute flight and ten minutes to get off and get your bag and we a mission time of ...two hours. Only by flying there you have no means of transport at your disposal when you arrive, however you may be better rested.
The harder we keep making the "avaition experience" the more attractive the other options start to look.
Time poor people can actually save time in Europe on high speed trains, that is why they are becoming flavour of the month. Here in this country we cannot agree that a high speed rail between Melbourne and Sydney is a necessity not a luxury. Yes there are hills in the way, especially to go via Canberra but guess what, Europe has mountains not hills and they manage.
It takes about two hours to drive Sydney - Canberra right? So allow a thirty minute drive to the airport followed by a forty five minute check in and a thirty minute flight and ten minutes to get off and get your bag and we a mission time of ...two hours. Only by flying there you have no means of transport at your disposal when you arrive, however you may be better rested.
The harder we keep making the "avaition experience" the more attractive the other options start to look.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After doing many SYD-CBR I think the time would be more like;
1. 30 min drive to the airport
2. 10 -15 mins to find a car park and walk to check-in.
3. 60 min to check-in, though screening and get to the gate
4. 45 - 60 mins block time (with only 30- 40 mins in the air)
5. 10-15 mins to get off the aircraft and collect bag
6. 5 mins to find a taxi/ hire car
7 15 minds to drive into the city.
Total time: 2hrs 54 mins - 3hrs 18 mins
And this would be on a good day!
High speed train is the way to go if we had one
1. 30 min drive to the airport
2. 10 -15 mins to find a car park and walk to check-in.
3. 60 min to check-in, though screening and get to the gate
4. 45 - 60 mins block time (with only 30- 40 mins in the air)
5. 10-15 mins to get off the aircraft and collect bag
6. 5 mins to find a taxi/ hire car
7 15 minds to drive into the city.
Total time: 2hrs 54 mins - 3hrs 18 mins
And this would be on a good day!
High speed train is the way to go if we had one
I've driven CB SY city centre to city centre in under 3 hrs including the rest stop of 20 mins.
Really good road, nice BP roadhouse to stop and re fuel yourself.
Get a nice car fitted with cruise control, maybe a rear DVD for the kids, have a good rest before setting off and just drive it. Why bother flying with all the bs it involves and you have your car at the other end too.
Really good road, nice BP roadhouse to stop and re fuel yourself.
Get a nice car fitted with cruise control, maybe a rear DVD for the kids, have a good rest before setting off and just drive it. Why bother flying with all the bs it involves and you have your car at the other end too.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suggest that driving loses its attraction for most of the wankers that complain about air travel because there are no lounges to loll around in getting pissed, no crew to abuse because the view is unsatisfactory etc
Driving has its attractions.... i use the car to get the groceries but i get a cab when i want to have a drink and drinking and driving doesnt really cut it
most FF need a drink on a 50 minute flight so how would they cope without alcohol on a three hour drive??
perhaps they could sit in the back and let the wife drive and pick on the kids for the slack service??
Driving has its attractions.... i use the car to get the groceries but i get a cab when i want to have a drink and drinking and driving doesnt really cut it
most FF need a drink on a 50 minute flight so how would they cope without alcohol on a three hour drive??
perhaps they could sit in the back and let the wife drive and pick on the kids for the slack service??
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some downsides to driving:
Higher chance of getting killed
Equal number of fools on the road as fools at the airport (hmm debatable actually)
Can't snooze and read mag/drink alcohol
Does say alot for the lounges doesn't it. I wonder if lounges of the future might have their own security screening bit like downstairs in ADL. God I love that.
Upside of driving:
No fools from airport
Security pantomime
Check in... err bugger it I could go on all day about just how painful our airports have become.
Fast train beats them all I reckon.
Higher chance of getting killed
Equal number of fools on the road as fools at the airport (hmm debatable actually)
Can't snooze and read mag/drink alcohol
Does say alot for the lounges doesn't it. I wonder if lounges of the future might have their own security screening bit like downstairs in ADL. God I love that.
Upside of driving:
No fools from airport
Security pantomime
Check in... err bugger it I could go on all day about just how painful our airports have become.
Fast train beats them all I reckon.
