DJ Turboprops announced in Skywest tie up
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$55k as a Cruise F/O at V Aust flying half way across the planet to feel like sh!t most of the time with no upgrade to F/O likely
All depends on what you want to do.
What are the qlink and rex salaries anyone?
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 13th Jan 2011 at 06:38.
Actually Cruise FOs at V are on about 61k atm but the EBA is still being negotiated, and most of them who have had interviews at VB have got in recently. About 10-20 of them have gone to VB now.
The pay isn't that flash atm but wait for the EBA
The pay isn't that flash atm but wait for the EBA
WRT comparisons of the salary at REX, Hatchet Harry's post is interesting. 1st Year F50 Captains salary at Skywest is approx the same as 10th year Captains salary at REX! Admittedly the F50 is a larger aircraft. 1st year F/O salary at skywest is far above what a 10 year F/O earns at REX! (around $56K).
REX salaries are approx 20% below their Qlink counterparts, and that's for the Q200/300. This has been achieved over the past 15 years by a combination circumstance (2 pleaded for wage freezes), subsequent broken management promisses, and ruthless delaying tactics at EBA time. Just to name few.
Come Feb/Mar, Same management will once again be looking at ways to save the business!
REX salaries are approx 20% below their Qlink counterparts, and that's for the Q200/300. This has been achieved over the past 15 years by a combination circumstance (2 pleaded for wage freezes), subsequent broken management promisses, and ruthless delaying tactics at EBA time. Just to name few.
Come Feb/Mar, Same management will once again be looking at ways to save the business!
Qlink salaries are down somewhat on skywest, but from what I have read, the guys at skywest have worked hard to keep their conditions with genuine wage increases each year
QLK first year capt round $86k, FO round $55k. Add 7% only for the Q400. Additional 3% was due july last year but EBA expired. May get interesting however, guess we will know from FWA come 3pm tomorrow.
QLK first year capt round $86k, FO round $55k. Add 7% only for the Q400. Additional 3% was due july last year but EBA expired. May get interesting however, guess we will know from FWA come 3pm tomorrow.
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KRUSTY, given all of that: who in their right mind would work for REX?
Not picking on you or REX pilots, but really the conditions according to your post and every single REX pilot i've ever spoken to are nothing short of abysmal. Funnily enough those pilots don't even mention the EBA stuff, they just talk of the C & T intimidation and anal carry on.
I suspect Qlink, Skywest and Rex all have the following:
8 days off (like office workers but not on the weekends! Read much worse off)
9 hours min rest.
More than 5 sector days allowed.
Skywest salary looks to be the best. I know that Qlink have QF staff travel and that their crew meals are very good. I Have a mate that rubs it in quite often! At the end of the day though as one poster pointed out: Most pilots look only at the salary when looking at the EBA. It is the other fine print and culture that ultimately make the conditions.
Not picking on you or REX pilots, but really the conditions according to your post and every single REX pilot i've ever spoken to are nothing short of abysmal. Funnily enough those pilots don't even mention the EBA stuff, they just talk of the C & T intimidation and anal carry on.
I suspect Qlink, Skywest and Rex all have the following:
8 days off (like office workers but not on the weekends! Read much worse off)
9 hours min rest.
More than 5 sector days allowed.
Skywest salary looks to be the best. I know that Qlink have QF staff travel and that their crew meals are very good. I Have a mate that rubs it in quite often! At the end of the day though as one poster pointed out: Most pilots look only at the salary when looking at the EBA. It is the other fine print and culture that ultimately make the conditions.
Even if the Skywest EBA was adjusted by only 5% for an ATR or Q400 it would be a base of $102K to $112K. If the productivity allowance above 59 hours is also adhered to the pilots averaging 70hours a month (not hard if similar schedules to Rex or QLink) should earn an additional $1000 a month and then additional allowances. So without too much issue a Captain could be earning $114 to $125K a year. All this then increases again at 4% mid year.
Considering the other clauses such as required 1 hour sign on and only 1 set of 6 in a row etc....
The whole package appears better, what it will come down to is what sort of rostering is done in regard to overnights and time away from home. At that pay if its the same as a jet roster (multiple nights away from home in a row and back of the clock flying) why bother when you can earn the 10 year captain pay rate as a 737 or A320 FO at Jetstar or Virgin.
Considering the other clauses such as required 1 hour sign on and only 1 set of 6 in a row etc....
Skywest salary looks to be the best
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Senior FO's at VB typically gross around $140k for the year with $10-15k tax free allowances on top....Add tax on top of the allowances (for comparison to any other job out there) and you're talking $160k.
The myth of multiple nights away and Back of the Clock continues..
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No but you can work your roster to suit your needs.
Anyway, back to the DJ Turbo props..
Exciting times I'm keen to see which aircraft it is and if there will be a business class. Will be interesting to see the final product. The JB vision.
Anyway, back to the DJ Turbo props..
Exciting times I'm keen to see which aircraft it is and if there will be a business class. Will be interesting to see the final product. The JB vision.
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Mr Hat I see you are as enthusiastic as ever! Well now, lets take a little reality check on the 'JB vision' as you call it.
Skywest has agreed to a joint venture with DJ for 10 years where they shoulder all the commercial and financial risk in exchange for DJ sales and marketing support, including the Velocity FF program. There was no mention of any equity stake in Skywest by DJ in the joint press releases. No surprise there as DJ's balance sheet shows they have no real money to invest.
As I mentioned in the other Dunnunda forum recently, joint ventures such as these have been used by US majors for many years and due to immense cost pressures almost invariable have resulted in the regional partner going 'bust'. This is because not only does the regional have to cover it's own costs and make a profit it also has to pay a substantial royalty to the code-share partner for every passenger supplied through their reservation system. This aspect was briefly mentioned in the Skywest/Virgin press releases.
Occasionally after the 'train wreck' the code-sharing major partner has very cheaply bought the assets of the defunct regional partner and internalised the business. Could this be JB's ultimate aim for 3 to 4 years hence? Time will tell!
Since the announcements others have established that Skywest's pilot T. & C. 's are more generous than their future competitor's and that regardless of which manufacturer wins the order the new aeroplanes will have a sticker price of around USD $20 Million, not including simulator (a new 'sim' if the ATR and full market rate rental off QF if the Q-400) and let's not forget the substantial spares package that will be needed.
Skywest's current revenue base for last year was around 350,000 passengers and the leasing company supplying the 18 new turbo's (i.e under-righting $360,000,000 in leases and which is also chaired by the skywest Chairman) uses the existing Skywest Fokker 100 fleet as their asset backing. Last time I looked a used F100 was worth less that USD $1 Million.
Given that each new aircraft will need 5 to 6 crews (covering for holidays, sickness, etc), Skywest need to recruit 180 to 216 new pilots. If these pilots are to be 'poached' from existing operators, attractive pilot and engineer T. & C's need to be offered.
The yet to be announced 'new' aircraft will cost as much as the Qlink aircraft and both the ATR and Q-400 run P&W engines which are not known for their fuel efficiency at low flight levels.
The other elephant in the room is REX who last year carried 1.2 million passengers, have other impressive and diverisfied assets and because they own their entire operation have the lowest costs in the industry. Unless Skywest and Qlink for that matter, successfully targets REX pilots and engineers to 'poach' their technical staff and neutralise their operations, REX will be a formidable competitor.
Someone please tell me how JB will achieve his 'vision' of substantially reducing the cost of regional transport with such competitive realities.
There is no doubt this is going to be a 'blood bath' and the travelling public will be the only winner for a short time period.
Anyone see the ultimate outcome any differently?
The Oracle
Skywest has agreed to a joint venture with DJ for 10 years where they shoulder all the commercial and financial risk in exchange for DJ sales and marketing support, including the Velocity FF program. There was no mention of any equity stake in Skywest by DJ in the joint press releases. No surprise there as DJ's balance sheet shows they have no real money to invest.
As I mentioned in the other Dunnunda forum recently, joint ventures such as these have been used by US majors for many years and due to immense cost pressures almost invariable have resulted in the regional partner going 'bust'. This is because not only does the regional have to cover it's own costs and make a profit it also has to pay a substantial royalty to the code-share partner for every passenger supplied through their reservation system. This aspect was briefly mentioned in the Skywest/Virgin press releases.
Occasionally after the 'train wreck' the code-sharing major partner has very cheaply bought the assets of the defunct regional partner and internalised the business. Could this be JB's ultimate aim for 3 to 4 years hence? Time will tell!
Since the announcements others have established that Skywest's pilot T. & C. 's are more generous than their future competitor's and that regardless of which manufacturer wins the order the new aeroplanes will have a sticker price of around USD $20 Million, not including simulator (a new 'sim' if the ATR and full market rate rental off QF if the Q-400) and let's not forget the substantial spares package that will be needed.
Skywest's current revenue base for last year was around 350,000 passengers and the leasing company supplying the 18 new turbo's (i.e under-righting $360,000,000 in leases and which is also chaired by the skywest Chairman) uses the existing Skywest Fokker 100 fleet as their asset backing. Last time I looked a used F100 was worth less that USD $1 Million.
Given that each new aircraft will need 5 to 6 crews (covering for holidays, sickness, etc), Skywest need to recruit 180 to 216 new pilots. If these pilots are to be 'poached' from existing operators, attractive pilot and engineer T. & C's need to be offered.
The yet to be announced 'new' aircraft will cost as much as the Qlink aircraft and both the ATR and Q-400 run P&W engines which are not known for their fuel efficiency at low flight levels.
The other elephant in the room is REX who last year carried 1.2 million passengers, have other impressive and diverisfied assets and because they own their entire operation have the lowest costs in the industry. Unless Skywest and Qlink for that matter, successfully targets REX pilots and engineers to 'poach' their technical staff and neutralise their operations, REX will be a formidable competitor.
Someone please tell me how JB will achieve his 'vision' of substantially reducing the cost of regional transport with such competitive realities.
There is no doubt this is going to be a 'blood bath' and the travelling public will be the only winner for a short time period.
Anyone see the ultimate outcome any differently?
The Oracle
A thoroughly negative view of the proposal. I don't think it will be a disaster at all. Do you think you or any of us is aware of what is planned? There is a bigger picture here and we only see a small part of the plan.
To rebutt one assertion...
The "sticker price" is not really relevant in that the monthly or yearly lease cost is what counts, agreed that is a function of the "sticker price".
If ATR get the nod for the fleet I think you will see them fund or partially fund a sim. 18 airframes would be worth it. Just as Boeing through Alteon assist VB with 737 NG sim training.
Full market rate on a Q400 sim. Yep. Just like they will pay full market rate for their fuel. Full market rate for landing and ANC. Full market rate for advertising. Full market rate for any outsourced service. So what, that would be in the budget for the operation.
To rebutt one assertion...
have a sticker price of around USD $20 Million, not including simulator (a new 'sim' if the ATR and full market rate rental off QF if the Q-400)
If ATR get the nod for the fleet I think you will see them fund or partially fund a sim. 18 airframes would be worth it. Just as Boeing through Alteon assist VB with 737 NG sim training.
Full market rate on a Q400 sim. Yep. Just like they will pay full market rate for their fuel. Full market rate for landing and ANC. Full market rate for advertising. Full market rate for any outsourced service. So what, that would be in the budget for the operation.
Oracle:
I see the outcome differently....
Unlike the US regionals, Skywest is not burdened with the ownership costs of the feeder aircraft, obtaining the aircraft is VB's responsibility.
Ultimately, it's not ridiculous that VB might take an equity stake in Skywest, but the time to get that cheap has truly passed.
Whatever type is selected a sim will be required, plenty of bays in Melbourne. Qantas' is pretty busy.
Rex will survive, they make most of their coin on routes no-one else could be bothered with, and they use an aircraft with half the capacity.
I see the outcome differently....
Unlike the US regionals, Skywest is not burdened with the ownership costs of the feeder aircraft, obtaining the aircraft is VB's responsibility.
Ultimately, it's not ridiculous that VB might take an equity stake in Skywest, but the time to get that cheap has truly passed.
Whatever type is selected a sim will be required, plenty of bays in Melbourne. Qantas' is pretty busy.
Rex will survive, they make most of their coin on routes no-one else could be bothered with, and they use an aircraft with half the capacity.
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" Senior FO's at VB typically gross around $140k for the year with $10-15k tax free allowances on top....Add tax on top of the allowances (for comparison to any other job out there) and you're talking $160k. "
Is that VB or VA?
Whats a senior FO? are you referring to level 3 vb fo?
if VB thats heaps of callouts...
Is that VB or VA?
Whats a senior FO? are you referring to level 3 vb fo?
if VB thats heaps of callouts...
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Great to see some robust discussion on the prune.
G'day captwawa, I've seen more than one group certificates that indicate more than 140k (allowances not counted of course). Ultimately though it involves callouts and OT which seems there is plenty of in a growing company. So you are right but I don't think its a rarity.
ORACLE an interesting read. For your information I don't se it as all beer and skittles either but try not to be the doomsdayer always and sometimes can come across this way. Newbies read and I don't want to fill their minds with too much of my learned negativity!
My main concern is this:
The time frame is concerning even though it will be gradual. This is a massive undertaking. East Coast bases, new type and quadruple the pilot group. Its a BIG ask.
I think if current F50 conditions are offered, REX will lose pilots and Qlink may depending on bases. The big question is: Will the job mean a foot in the door at VB? If it does, like it is at VA (no guarantee but better than nothing at the moment) then this will attract even more. I wouldn't expect conditions to be more than the XR EBA perhaps they may even be less.
I don't see REX as a formidable competitor. Why? Yes their cost base is nearly unbeatable. That is when no jobs are going. When jobs are going they loose pilots quicker than anyone in the country. Its no surprise that the companies where the conditions are the lowest are the companies that loose pilots the quickest. How many left QF and VB in the last 12 months? How many left the old Skywest? So loosing pilots is costly. I know they see us as just replaceable but it all adds up. Of course the cry foul will come out like in the magical 07. The key to the entire thing will be conditions which is purely what controls quantity and thus quality of applicants. It only takes one stuff up and the whole shooting match is over.
Cadets you say? Good luck Captains I say.
G'day captwawa, I've seen more than one group certificates that indicate more than 140k (allowances not counted of course). Ultimately though it involves callouts and OT which seems there is plenty of in a growing company. So you are right but I don't think its a rarity.
ORACLE an interesting read. For your information I don't se it as all beer and skittles either but try not to be the doomsdayer always and sometimes can come across this way. Newbies read and I don't want to fill their minds with too much of my learned negativity!
My main concern is this:
Skywest need to recruit 180 to 216 new pilots.
I think if current F50 conditions are offered, REX will lose pilots and Qlink may depending on bases. The big question is: Will the job mean a foot in the door at VB? If it does, like it is at VA (no guarantee but better than nothing at the moment) then this will attract even more. I wouldn't expect conditions to be more than the XR EBA perhaps they may even be less.
I don't see REX as a formidable competitor. Why? Yes their cost base is nearly unbeatable. That is when no jobs are going. When jobs are going they loose pilots quicker than anyone in the country. Its no surprise that the companies where the conditions are the lowest are the companies that loose pilots the quickest. How many left QF and VB in the last 12 months? How many left the old Skywest? So loosing pilots is costly. I know they see us as just replaceable but it all adds up. Of course the cry foul will come out like in the magical 07. The key to the entire thing will be conditions which is purely what controls quantity and thus quality of applicants. It only takes one stuff up and the whole shooting match is over.
Cadets you say? Good luck Captains I say.