DJ Turboprops announced in Skywest tie up
43inches. That is interesting.......... isn't it. Was looking at that during the announcement an it smacks of creative accounting. I hope the ATR is not the machine purely on the basis that the E series jets have been proven to be the wrong decision on a cost analysis....
This development is great for Skywest and VB management but will most likely have huge repercussions for the VB pilots.
It's merely the first step in the outsourcing of VB flying, to pilots that are not on the VB pilot list and if it's not stopped could very well come back to haunt us in the future.
There is absolutely nothing that stops the following from happening......First Skywest starts operating TP's on new routes for VB, Australia wide. Then they start flying on routes currently operated by VB pilots flying the EMB's.
After a period of time, if Skywest does a good job, VB management asks them to take on the EMB170's and fly them in VB colours. Now you have pilots flying a VB type at what will probably be less money than the current VB rates, on VB routes.
Outsourcing is a far cheaper option for Management and if you don't think so, simply look at the rise of the regional airlines in the US. United pilots currently fly less than 50% of all the aircraft painted in United colours. An entire fleet of United 73's were retired over a period of 12 months and replaced by CRJ700/EMB170's flown by contract airlines and pilots paid a hell of a lot less than the 73 pilots they replaced.
A 5th year FO flying the EMB170 in United Express colours is paid US$45k a year!!!!!
Every pilot at VB needs to read up on "Scope" and how having a scope clause in the next EBA is a major priority. Without one, they'll end up watching their flying being farmed out to contractors and any career progression, disappearing down the toilet.
It's merely the first step in the outsourcing of VB flying, to pilots that are not on the VB pilot list and if it's not stopped could very well come back to haunt us in the future.
There is absolutely nothing that stops the following from happening......First Skywest starts operating TP's on new routes for VB, Australia wide. Then they start flying on routes currently operated by VB pilots flying the EMB's.
After a period of time, if Skywest does a good job, VB management asks them to take on the EMB170's and fly them in VB colours. Now you have pilots flying a VB type at what will probably be less money than the current VB rates, on VB routes.
Outsourcing is a far cheaper option for Management and if you don't think so, simply look at the rise of the regional airlines in the US. United pilots currently fly less than 50% of all the aircraft painted in United colours. An entire fleet of United 73's were retired over a period of 12 months and replaced by CRJ700/EMB170's flown by contract airlines and pilots paid a hell of a lot less than the 73 pilots they replaced.
A 5th year FO flying the EMB170 in United Express colours is paid US$45k a year!!!!!
Every pilot at VB needs to read up on "Scope" and how having a scope clause in the next EBA is a major priority. Without one, they'll end up watching their flying being farmed out to contractors and any career progression, disappearing down the toilet.
Last edited by Kenny; 11th Jan 2011 at 21:38.
Kenny is spot on here. People seem to forget that JB was at the helm of mainline when he gave the Tasman flying to Jitconnect, and he never did anything about progression from Qlink to mainline. He is a great manager, but didn't do a huge amount for the careers of current Qantas pilots. Probably a good time for VB pilots to put something in place so they don't start losing their flying and career opportunities. Good luck!
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Interesting..............head of training has just given notice at Qlink to go to "CASA".......
If they offered jet progression, Qlink guys would flock to VB and they would have a ready made operation with all the training and operational knowledge..............that is of course if they get 400's
If they offered jet progression, Qlink guys would flock to VB and they would have a ready made operation with all the training and operational knowledge..............that is of course if they get 400's
And Kenny, the irony is that the company doing that flying for United is called none other than...
Skywest (USA)
Skywest (USA)
Probably a good time for VB pilots to put something in place so they don't start losing their flying and career opportunities.
Here's hoping the AFAP gets it act together about this issue.
The other issue pilots might want to be aware of is the way Skywest is structured. The aircraft leasing company makes all the money while Skywest airlines runs on very tight margins. This makes wage negotiations very difficult.
And Kenny, the irony is that the company doing that flying for United is called none other than...
This is a pivotal moment for the VB pilots. JB has come in and done a lot of good in a fairly short space of time. He's also said a lot of the right things, to an employee group that was hardly happy but he's not here to give us the warm and fuzzies. He's here to make money for the share-holders and if he can do that by having contract airlines fly VB routes for less, he'll do it.
If it is cheaper then they will do it, end of story. As for them offering a premium to lure present Q-link boys and girls over to the new operation it simply will not happen. 
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Kenny.
"VB management asks them to take on the EMB170's" - they are already up for sale so no chance of that happening.
"Now you have pilots flying a VB type at what will probably be less money than the current VB rates, on VB routes." - according to the Skywest EBA on the FWA website they get pretty well renumerated relative to aircraft size for what they do, i mean a 3rd year F50 FO is on $65000 to fly a 21t turboprop! Whats a Jet* FO on relative to dollars/tonne?
Will be very interesting to see tho how Skywest will double their pilot, cabin crew, engineering numbers in the next year? (the GA boys will be salivating...)
"VB management asks them to take on the EMB170's" - they are already up for sale so no chance of that happening.
"Now you have pilots flying a VB type at what will probably be less money than the current VB rates, on VB routes." - according to the Skywest EBA on the FWA website they get pretty well renumerated relative to aircraft size for what they do, i mean a 3rd year F50 FO is on $65000 to fly a 21t turboprop! Whats a Jet* FO on relative to dollars/tonne?
Will be very interesting to see tho how Skywest will double their pilot, cabin crew, engineering numbers in the next year? (the GA boys will be salivating...)
Will the entry requirments be the same as Skywest? I don't have Physics and I'm sure there would be a lot of other Pilots around that do not have it.
I'm sure your 'competition' won't hesitate if they need it to get the job!
GG
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S D71
Most real airlines have what is known as Fleet Pay. A Capt earns $X and the F/O 60-65% of that.
This whole wank thing about size and weight is just that. Wank.
The same can be said about the hoohaa regarding widebody. It's no different. Don't let them tell you it is; nothing could be further from the truth.
My point being, they will pay what they can pay to get away with it. READ, as cheaply as we let them. The only reason Jokestar pays a joke is because WE HAVE LET THEM. If nobody was to apply for said positions ie T&Cs were not good enough, the operator would be forced to offer more. It's market forces at play. Nothing to do with weight/size/pax capacity etc.
However, going by history in this country, there will be fools out there that will do it for next to nothing. I do hope that I am wrong, but very much doubt it.
Most real airlines have what is known as Fleet Pay. A Capt earns $X and the F/O 60-65% of that.
This whole wank thing about size and weight is just that. Wank.
The same can be said about the hoohaa regarding widebody. It's no different. Don't let them tell you it is; nothing could be further from the truth.
My point being, they will pay what they can pay to get away with it. READ, as cheaply as we let them. The only reason Jokestar pays a joke is because WE HAVE LET THEM. If nobody was to apply for said positions ie T&Cs were not good enough, the operator would be forced to offer more. It's market forces at play. Nothing to do with weight/size/pax capacity etc.
However, going by history in this country, there will be fools out there that will do it for next to nothing. I do hope that I am wrong, but very much doubt it.
People dont seem to be able to read press releases these days. The aircraft will be SKYWEST OPERATED. So to clear up any confusion- if you want to fly these new aircraft they are getting for Virgin, you will need to be employed by Skywest.
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Solution - GET IT!
I'm sure your 'competition' won't hesitate if they need it to get the job!
GG
I'm sure your 'competition' won't hesitate if they need it to get the job!
GG
I'm in the same boat! No physics. Wrote to them the other day to find out what they require if this is the case and I haven't heard back as of yet. Getting year 12 physics isn't that simple if you live outside the cities.
I'm hoping they'll accept a bridging course through one of the uni's via correspondence.
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Whoa Kenny!
While you are correct about the outsourcing aspect of one of your previous posts, Skywest Pilot's T&Cs are quite reasonable. ie Skywest A320 pilots are approx on par with Vb 737 pilots conditions. Certainly alot better than Jokestar. So I doubt you see Skywest pilot"s flying on any percieved reduced terms and conditions.
Wombat
While you are correct about the outsourcing aspect of one of your previous posts, Skywest Pilot's T&Cs are quite reasonable. ie Skywest A320 pilots are approx on par with Vb 737 pilots conditions. Certainly alot better than Jokestar. So I doubt you see Skywest pilot"s flying on any percieved reduced terms and conditions.
Wombat
I will bet that Skywest will draw up a entirely different contract for the Virgin painted props.
Another scenario is that they will actually shut down the entire F50 operation and fire all the F50 pilots. Then all these routes plus the east coast are replaced by the VB painted turboprops flown by pilots on the new conditions. The F50 drivers will then have to reapply for the new contract. The F100 guys then remain operating the blue tailed F100s. Very clean and decisive.
Not necessarily. REX proved this in recent history as they tried to employ foreign labour to solve their crewing problems. They got caught out because they didn't actually pay enough to qualify for the visas but goes to show where all this is heading.
If Australian pilot labour market gets dragged into an international labour market situation we will get crucified as there are many many countries who pay their pilots much lower than what Australian pilots currently enjoy.
Have a look at the average salary of pilots in South Africa, NZ, Fiji, Canada and the USA in comparison with what we get over here. If hypothetically every ozzie pilot refused to work for Jetstar all they need to do is go on a recruitment drive to a few countries and that will solve their problems. Not saying I agree with it, but just reality.
Have a look at the Spirit Airlines strike in the USA recently. 45K a year as a FO on a International A320 operation, 3 years of negotiation and still no pay rise.
Another scenario is that they will actually shut down the entire F50 operation and fire all the F50 pilots. Then all these routes plus the east coast are replaced by the VB painted turboprops flown by pilots on the new conditions. The F50 drivers will then have to reapply for the new contract. The F100 guys then remain operating the blue tailed F100s. Very clean and decisive.
If nobody was to apply for said positions ie T&Cs were not good enough, the operator would be forced to offer more. It's market forces at play. Nothing to do with weight/size/pax capacity etc
If Australian pilot labour market gets dragged into an international labour market situation we will get crucified as there are many many countries who pay their pilots much lower than what Australian pilots currently enjoy.
Have a look at the average salary of pilots in South Africa, NZ, Fiji, Canada and the USA in comparison with what we get over here. If hypothetically every ozzie pilot refused to work for Jetstar all they need to do is go on a recruitment drive to a few countries and that will solve their problems. Not saying I agree with it, but just reality.
Have a look at the Spirit Airlines strike in the USA recently. 45K a year as a FO on a International A320 operation, 3 years of negotiation and still no pay rise.
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yeh mate well aware of that. I was just saying for what they do, in comparison to other airlines, they get paid pretty well. Their T & C's are safe for another 3 years under their EBA so all new piolts will operate under it, and start at the bottom of the seniority list, INCLUDING direct entry check and trainers as has happened on the A320.
Good luck to all new prospective pilots wanting a slice...
yeh mate well aware of that. I was just saying for what they do, in comparison to other airlines, they get paid pretty well. Their T & C's are safe for another 3 years under their EBA so all new piolts will operate under it, and start at the bottom of the seniority list, INCLUDING direct entry check and trainers as has happened on the A320.
Good luck to all new prospective pilots wanting a slice...
Regardless of what kind of turboprop they go for,I can't see them being up and running before the end of the year anyway,unless they of course go for second hand machines as both ATR and Bombardier can't produce aircraft within six months that haven't been ordered yet. Having said that,what's to say that the machines haven't been ordered through another source.
From the very little information that I know,ATR have really been pushing their products in our region,offering some airlines some pritty good deals to purchase their machines,especially the ATR 42-500. I think most operators are hanging out for the -600 models as they are the machines for hot and high places.
Their was also a rumour going around that someone was considering putting an ATR sim in Australia somewhere,possibly in Cairns or Brisbane.
Now that Bombardier have stopped producing the 37 and 50 seater
Dash 8s,ATR 42s may become a more common sight around our skies in the future.
From the very little information that I know,ATR have really been pushing their products in our region,offering some airlines some pritty good deals to purchase their machines,especially the ATR 42-500. I think most operators are hanging out for the -600 models as they are the machines for hot and high places.
Their was also a rumour going around that someone was considering putting an ATR sim in Australia somewhere,possibly in Cairns or Brisbane.
Now that Bombardier have stopped producing the 37 and 50 seater
Dash 8s,ATR 42s may become a more common sight around our skies in the future.
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Hi Nom,
Quote "Most real airlines have what is known as Fleet Pay. A Capt earns $X and the F/O 60-65% of that. "
Not having a go but I just can't find any airline that operates a narrow bodied fleet of jets with the pax load differences between the types (ie, 72 pax compared to 180 pax) that offers fleet pay?
Cx and Em do but they are wide bodied.
Anyone?
Quote "Most real airlines have what is known as Fleet Pay. A Capt earns $X and the F/O 60-65% of that. "
Not having a go but I just can't find any airline that operates a narrow bodied fleet of jets with the pax load differences between the types (ie, 72 pax compared to 180 pax) that offers fleet pay?
Cx and Em do but they are wide bodied.
Anyone?
