Merged: It's Too Late Mr. Joyce.
Thread Starter
Merged: It's Too Late Mr. Joyce.
The brand is already suffering.
"Worlds safest airline?" Says who?
Of course these incidents are "unrelated" in a technical sense. They are related in a statistical sense since it would appear that they are all maintenance related in respect of overall quality and supervision of maintenance.
This is exactly the reason I built a simple system to track "unrelated incidents" about Forty years ago for Ansett. The Poisson Distribution, hypothesis testing, Three sigma limits and confidence limits are your friend.
To be fair to Qantas, assuming those tried and tested statistical tools are being applied by ATA chapter to each aircraft type to the monthly reported defect totals, then QF should be able to prove to it's own satisfaction, and the regulator and ATSB, that these indeed are "Isolated incidents" in the statistical meaning of the term. If they cannot, or don't track reliability that way, then God help them.
If QF really is in a situation where Ten years cutting and scrimping has left them a bit light on, then it will take at least that long to get out, assuming that the Board agreed, which I doubt.
"Smoke in the cockpit" due to a "minor electrical problem"?
Take it from me, it isn't "minor" when you smell it for the first time after take off and you have no idea what's causing it. It's happened to me. Furthermore, having assisted in trying to put out a major electrical fire in a fiberglass boat, and caught a whiff of smoke from burning resin, Good luck to the B787 crew who had a similar experience.
Erosion of trust in Qantas 'unavoidable' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
"Worlds safest airline?" Says who?
Of course these incidents are "unrelated" in a technical sense. They are related in a statistical sense since it would appear that they are all maintenance related in respect of overall quality and supervision of maintenance.
This is exactly the reason I built a simple system to track "unrelated incidents" about Forty years ago for Ansett. The Poisson Distribution, hypothesis testing, Three sigma limits and confidence limits are your friend.
To be fair to Qantas, assuming those tried and tested statistical tools are being applied by ATA chapter to each aircraft type to the monthly reported defect totals, then QF should be able to prove to it's own satisfaction, and the regulator and ATSB, that these indeed are "Isolated incidents" in the statistical meaning of the term. If they cannot, or don't track reliability that way, then God help them.
If QF really is in a situation where Ten years cutting and scrimping has left them a bit light on, then it will take at least that long to get out, assuming that the Board agreed, which I doubt.
"Smoke in the cockpit" due to a "minor electrical problem"?
Take it from me, it isn't "minor" when you smell it for the first time after take off and you have no idea what's causing it. It's happened to me. Furthermore, having assisted in trying to put out a major electrical fire in a fiberglass boat, and caught a whiff of smoke from burning resin, Good luck to the B787 crew who had a similar experience.
Erosion of trust in Qantas 'unavoidable'
By Meredith Griffiths
One analyst says the public is becoming sceptical of the airline's assurances on safety.
Qantas is again playing down safety concerns with its aircraft after another aborted flight today, but one analyst says the public is becoming sceptical of the airline's assurances.
A Qantas 747 bound for Argentina was forced to turn back to Sydney this morning after smoke was detected in the cockpit an hour into the flight.
The airline says a minor electrical problem caused the turnaround and all passengers disembarked safely.
The 199 passengers on QF17 were put onto a different plane that left early this evening.
Qantas says the latest drama is unrelated to three other incidents on its planes in the past fortnight, but marketing analyst Richard Sauerman says the brand is beginning to suffer.
"We should probably be thankful that in fact they are doing this, being over cautious and not letting things fly, but I don't know if the public buys that," he said.
"There's an erosion of trust. There's something that's going on in the back of people's minds and they'll just think twice about Qantas next time they're going to book an air ticket.
"I guarantee you most people will do that."
He says people are hearing that Qantas is compromising its service.
"Certainly the union people are saying that. They've sent certain services and maintenance, engineering functions offshore and when they did that way back, people said 'oh, that's going to somehow undermine the safety' and low and behold, that seems to be what's happening," he said.
"Now whether that is exactly how it plays out, I don't know. The point is that perceptions shape the reality, whatever the reality actually is, and that's not a good conversation happening out there for Qantas at all."
Qantas spokeswoman Olivia Wirth says the incident is unrelated to problems experienced by one of its A380s over Indonesia or the 747 that saw its engine sparking on a flight from Singapore 10 days ago.
She says these events are getting greater attention than they may have in the past.
"We are very conservative when it comes to safety. We do have certain procedures in place and we make sure that our pilots do stick by them," she said.
"I think there's recognition that Qantas does take safety very seriously.
"On the incidents recently, the feedback from passengers has been very positive and Qantas always takes a conservative approach.
"Obviously it's unfortunate that we have had a number of incidents recently.
"They're unrelated and we'll make sure we keep safety our priority for this organisation."
Hard questions
Aviation blogger Ben Sandilands says people are right to ask hard questions about Qantas's maintenance but he says they should be fair.
"In the case of much newer aircraft, then probably the facilities that they have used overseas - and sometimes can't avoid using overseas - are indeed very good," he said.
"But this is more an issue of the age of the Qantas aircraft and they do have some very old aircraft in service at the moment.
"Probably the very best thing they can do is to keep that maintenance in Australia and not in a facility which really is used to dealing with much newer aircraft."
Mr Sandilands says there are many turnbacks and faults which are commonplace in aviation and do not reflect badly on Qantas.
By Meredith Griffiths
One analyst says the public is becoming sceptical of the airline's assurances on safety.
Qantas is again playing down safety concerns with its aircraft after another aborted flight today, but one analyst says the public is becoming sceptical of the airline's assurances.
A Qantas 747 bound for Argentina was forced to turn back to Sydney this morning after smoke was detected in the cockpit an hour into the flight.
The airline says a minor electrical problem caused the turnaround and all passengers disembarked safely.
The 199 passengers on QF17 were put onto a different plane that left early this evening.
Qantas says the latest drama is unrelated to three other incidents on its planes in the past fortnight, but marketing analyst Richard Sauerman says the brand is beginning to suffer.
"We should probably be thankful that in fact they are doing this, being over cautious and not letting things fly, but I don't know if the public buys that," he said.
"There's an erosion of trust. There's something that's going on in the back of people's minds and they'll just think twice about Qantas next time they're going to book an air ticket.
"I guarantee you most people will do that."
He says people are hearing that Qantas is compromising its service.
"Certainly the union people are saying that. They've sent certain services and maintenance, engineering functions offshore and when they did that way back, people said 'oh, that's going to somehow undermine the safety' and low and behold, that seems to be what's happening," he said.
"Now whether that is exactly how it plays out, I don't know. The point is that perceptions shape the reality, whatever the reality actually is, and that's not a good conversation happening out there for Qantas at all."
Qantas spokeswoman Olivia Wirth says the incident is unrelated to problems experienced by one of its A380s over Indonesia or the 747 that saw its engine sparking on a flight from Singapore 10 days ago.
She says these events are getting greater attention than they may have in the past.
"We are very conservative when it comes to safety. We do have certain procedures in place and we make sure that our pilots do stick by them," she said.
"I think there's recognition that Qantas does take safety very seriously.
"On the incidents recently, the feedback from passengers has been very positive and Qantas always takes a conservative approach.
"Obviously it's unfortunate that we have had a number of incidents recently.
"They're unrelated and we'll make sure we keep safety our priority for this organisation."
Hard questions
Aviation blogger Ben Sandilands says people are right to ask hard questions about Qantas's maintenance but he says they should be fair.
"In the case of much newer aircraft, then probably the facilities that they have used overseas - and sometimes can't avoid using overseas - are indeed very good," he said.
"But this is more an issue of the age of the Qantas aircraft and they do have some very old aircraft in service at the moment.
"Probably the very best thing they can do is to keep that maintenance in Australia and not in a facility which really is used to dealing with much newer aircraft."
Mr Sandilands says there are many turnbacks and faults which are commonplace in aviation and do not reflect badly on Qantas.
Erosion of trust in Qantas 'unavoidable' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Sadly the sequence of events in the past couple of weeks has highlighted what many have been saying for a long time.
The treatment and neglect of the 'premium airline' is coming back to bite the board and ceo at a time the airline needs people at the top who truly believe in Qantas. Unfortunately this is all missing.
Alan Joyce should be at the forefront explaining to shareholders, and more importantly, the australian public, what he and the board will do to recover a situation that is totally unacceptable.
If this is what a great two brand strategy delivers, well... you can keep the stategy thanks. The Australian travelling public don't give a rats about Jetstar and what it represents but they are deeply concerned (finally) at what years of neglect, inept management and deciscions based on corporate greed have produced.
Unfortunately the sequence of events over the last few weeks has also highlighted that the senior management have no solution to the train wreck that they have created. They now have no answers. The corporate spin doctors of Epstein and Wirth have nothing but spin in all of their answers. Wirths' responses to some of the questions yesterday were appalling. A clear indication of the lack of knowledge as to the berevity of the situation of what smoke in the cockpit could actually really mean. So as a response to this, she feeds the waiting media the names of operating crew, in the hope they are led away from the scent of a greater problem.
I'm sure there are many 'crisis meetings' taking place but sadly no one from the board down will take ownership of the problem, acknowledge there is a major problem and implement steps to guide qantas to where all concerned staff, passengers and public think qantas should be.
Questions about the real impact of offshoring of maintenance function, the impact of offshoring of pilot positions, cabin crew postitons and the true value and impact to the "group".
In the interim I'm glad this week, Bruce Buchanan continues to espouse the virtues of cheap foreign labour. He and his cohorts within senior qantas group management continually demonstate and epitomise all that is wrong with Qantas as a group.
The treatment and neglect of the 'premium airline' is coming back to bite the board and ceo at a time the airline needs people at the top who truly believe in Qantas. Unfortunately this is all missing.
Alan Joyce should be at the forefront explaining to shareholders, and more importantly, the australian public, what he and the board will do to recover a situation that is totally unacceptable.
If this is what a great two brand strategy delivers, well... you can keep the stategy thanks. The Australian travelling public don't give a rats about Jetstar and what it represents but they are deeply concerned (finally) at what years of neglect, inept management and deciscions based on corporate greed have produced.
Unfortunately the sequence of events over the last few weeks has also highlighted that the senior management have no solution to the train wreck that they have created. They now have no answers. The corporate spin doctors of Epstein and Wirth have nothing but spin in all of their answers. Wirths' responses to some of the questions yesterday were appalling. A clear indication of the lack of knowledge as to the berevity of the situation of what smoke in the cockpit could actually really mean. So as a response to this, she feeds the waiting media the names of operating crew, in the hope they are led away from the scent of a greater problem.
I'm sure there are many 'crisis meetings' taking place but sadly no one from the board down will take ownership of the problem, acknowledge there is a major problem and implement steps to guide qantas to where all concerned staff, passengers and public think qantas should be.
Questions about the real impact of offshoring of maintenance function, the impact of offshoring of pilot positions, cabin crew postitons and the true value and impact to the "group".
In the interim I'm glad this week, Bruce Buchanan continues to espouse the virtues of cheap foreign labour. He and his cohorts within senior qantas group management continually demonstate and epitomise all that is wrong with Qantas as a group.
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An excellent read for those wanting to understand where this ultimately leads is;
The Normalisation of Deviance-The Challenger Launch Decision
The aggressive style of management, driven by PERSONAL incentives pares away at the layers of safety built from years of operational experience. The prominence of accountants, encroaching into operational areas where their discipline has no experience eventually triggers the sequence of events that prove catastropic.
The engineers have stated it publicly, us pilots are also of the same opinion. It will take a long time to undo if it can be undone at all. In the interim we all hope (some 35,000 employees) our passengers and probably even shareholders that through some twist of fate, despite all the cutting and focus on short term incentives we avoid the fate that such behaviour delivered to the Challenger and NASA.
The Normalisation of Deviance-The Challenger Launch Decision
The aggressive style of management, driven by PERSONAL incentives pares away at the layers of safety built from years of operational experience. The prominence of accountants, encroaching into operational areas where their discipline has no experience eventually triggers the sequence of events that prove catastropic.
The engineers have stated it publicly, us pilots are also of the same opinion. It will take a long time to undo if it can be undone at all. In the interim we all hope (some 35,000 employees) our passengers and probably even shareholders that through some twist of fate, despite all the cutting and focus on short term incentives we avoid the fate that such behaviour delivered to the Challenger and NASA.
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A clear indication of the lack of knowledge as to the berevity of the situation of what smoke in the cockpit could actually really mean
You reap what you sow.
Dixon sowed.
Now its harvest time.
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Qantas has never had a hull loss.
Hope it stays that way. She's hanging in there by the skin of her teeth ... talk about public relations disasters ... what a bl**dy nightmare.
Hope it stays that way. She's hanging in there by the skin of her teeth ... talk about public relations disasters ... what a bl**dy nightmare.
ReverseFlight
You don't believe that do you?
List of Qantas fatal accidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
G-AUED
G-AUHI
VH-UHE
VH-USG
G-AEUH
VH-USE
VH-ADU
42-68348
VH-ABB
G-AGLX
VH-EBQ
Qantas has never had a hull loss.
List of Qantas fatal accidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
G-AUED
G-AUHI
VH-UHE
VH-USG
G-AEUH
VH-USE
VH-ADU
42-68348
VH-ABB
G-AGLX
VH-EBQ
Qantas has never had a hull loss.
Qantas has never had a 'jet-powered' hull loss. I believe that is technically correct, although the intent is to leave the listerner with the impression that they haven't had a hull loss at all. ReverseFlight has demonstrated that the spin does work.
Thread Starter
How Does Qantas Get Out Of It's Troubles?
How Does Qantas Get Out Of It's Troubles? What is the solution to its current problems? Kidnap Fyffe from Air New Zealand? Kidnap their Board as well?
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How about you give them a break and support an AUS Icon
As an ex long serving QF employee, I am dismayed at the level of Qantas bashing I see. if it is not the media , it's some of the miss guided unionists (in support of an EBA I'm sure) and now its these posts, and they are many and varied. All this rhetoric will only under mine further a company that employees Australian's. If any of you care about Australian workers then give them a chance to turn things around, they are not perfect but then who is!
Last edited by Mr Mott; 16th Nov 2010 at 02:44. Reason: Spelling
1. Re establishment of all engineering functions back in Australia. It's forms the core of the business of running an airline.
1b. Publically acknowledge there is an unacceptable trend occuring.
2. Acknowledge that some decisions taken by the board over the last 10 years have contributed to a detrimental effect on Qantas mainline.
3. Acknowledge to staff that mistakes have been made.
4. Acknowledge to staff that they are aware everyone wants a future. When it comes to negotiating, acknowledge that they are aware staff are willing to negotiate in good faith.
5. Organise a plan and recognise that a solution lies within the organisation, ie. it's front line staff, who have a desperate desire for Qantas to be the best.
6. Acknowledge this will come at a cost.
7. Abolish KPI linked bonuses. Every staff member is paid a salary and that is it!
8. Abolish all consultant positions. Any manager that needs to have a consultant work for them doesn't deserve the position.
9. Review board member aviation experience, and require pilot/engineer representatives presence at every board meeting.
10. Establishment of recovery plan that places the qantas product first and foremost. Identify to the travelling public that Qantas understands it's faults and is implementing the steps in the recovery.
11. All new aircraft arrivals targeted to reduce the dilapadated Qantas fleet.
1b. Publically acknowledge there is an unacceptable trend occuring.
2. Acknowledge that some decisions taken by the board over the last 10 years have contributed to a detrimental effect on Qantas mainline.
3. Acknowledge to staff that mistakes have been made.
4. Acknowledge to staff that they are aware everyone wants a future. When it comes to negotiating, acknowledge that they are aware staff are willing to negotiate in good faith.
5. Organise a plan and recognise that a solution lies within the organisation, ie. it's front line staff, who have a desperate desire for Qantas to be the best.
6. Acknowledge this will come at a cost.
7. Abolish KPI linked bonuses. Every staff member is paid a salary and that is it!
8. Abolish all consultant positions. Any manager that needs to have a consultant work for them doesn't deserve the position.
9. Review board member aviation experience, and require pilot/engineer representatives presence at every board meeting.
10. Establishment of recovery plan that places the qantas product first and foremost. Identify to the travelling public that Qantas understands it's faults and is implementing the steps in the recovery.
11. All new aircraft arrivals targeted to reduce the dilapadated Qantas fleet.
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mr mott I dont know how long since you were there but it is not a patch on what it was.Rose coloured glasses perhaps?
People are genuinely concerned mate, over and out.
People are genuinely concerned mate, over and out.
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Ampclamp, I take your point, it is not what it used to be but what is. My point is the continued knocking will not make it better, it just puts Ozzy jobs at risk.
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Mr Mott, you surely must have left before Dixon got his hands on the company. The management of Qantas do not deserve "a break". They deserve intense media (balanced) and public scrutiny to ensure they rebuild the long standing reputation for safety by engaging the workforce, leading by example, and focussing on the core business of flying aeroplanes full of passengers from A to B in safety and comfort.
As for supporting an "Aus icon", are you talking about the airline that pays peanuts to foreign pilots and cabin crew who wear the uniform and operate the red tail aeroplanes?
As for supporting an "Aus icon", are you talking about the airline that pays peanuts to foreign pilots and cabin crew who wear the uniform and operate the red tail aeroplanes?
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give them a chance to turn things around, they are not perfect but then who is!
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If any of you care about Australian workers then give them a chance to turn things around, they are not perfect but then who is!
The bashing of Qantas could be seen as that, however I see it more as people frustrated by the lack of interest by management to take onboard any worthwhile constructive criticism from its employees, and the bashing you see here is perhaps the only way to get it out there.
An example:
It annoys me when I see good workers being held back by from training due to "costs", or to try to work with equipment or spares not being available, but management deem it cost effective to paint the internal structure of hangars or offices when it is not needed ( have a look at one particular hangar at the moment and you would know what I am refering to). And why does this painting go on? It's so that management can point to something physical and say that they have done "something". It's an easy thing to do and shows "visual progress".
It would be a lot harder for management to point at AME Joe Blogs and say to the bean counters that we spent some dosh on training him to do xyz and as a result he has become more productive, efficient and useful to the company because in the end he still just looks like AME Joe Blogs.
Besides, what's the point in training Joe Blogs when much of the skill sets we would give him by training him are not needed as the work is outsourced or servicing contracts cancelled?
But the hangar looks bloody fantastic and everyone that sees it from the terminal windows on the other side of the slot will surely be impressed with the "image" presented to them by management only interested in looking good.
It's all window-dressing and image, it is nothing of real substance. And it is real obvious.
Until management start to see the potential in what they still have in the staff, and realise that good staff with good training will give them a better image than all the tins of paint on the planet, the bashing will continue. And I am all for it.
AWBC
Thread Starter
Mott:
I think the point is that the Board and senior management, by their actions, appear to care little for "Ozzy jobs" except their own.
To put it another way, they are keen to sacrifice "Ozzy jobs" to protect "Ozzy jobs". Ultimately they will sacrifice the engineers "Ozzy jobs", to protect the pilots ""Ozzy jobs", then sacrifice the pilots "Ozzy jobs" to protect the check in staffs "Ozzy jobs", ad infinitum, if you get my meaning.
I could make racial comments here, but I assume QF's legal eagles are trawling for any opportunity to start a lawsuit and make an example, and I have no wish to be it.
Ampclamp, I take your point, it is not what it used to be but what is. My point is the continued knocking will not make it better, it just puts Ozzy jobs at risk.
To put it another way, they are keen to sacrifice "Ozzy jobs" to protect "Ozzy jobs". Ultimately they will sacrifice the engineers "Ozzy jobs", to protect the pilots ""Ozzy jobs", then sacrifice the pilots "Ozzy jobs" to protect the check in staffs "Ozzy jobs", ad infinitum, if you get my meaning.
I could make racial comments here, but I assume QF's legal eagles are trawling for any opportunity to start a lawsuit and make an example, and I have no wish to be it.
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Hotnhigh, that is one of the best posts I have read for a long time. And so true. 
It is so hard for a ol fella like myself, who spent their whole working life in the airlines, to see such a decline especially in such a great airline like QF. I am a member of a retired airline pilot group, and we just shake our heads, and wonder what happened to standards and safety that we took so seriously, along with the engineers with whom we worked. I can only hope before there is a hull loss, that standards and safety become paramount, that QF engineering goes back to the great and proud section it once was, ( as Arthur Baird set the standards) and we can forget the freckin shareholders, because if there is a hull loss, they will leave in droves. I never worried about my safety in all 49 years of flying, so why am I starting to worry about my kids (3 airline pilots) all of a sudden? I should not be.
It is so hard for a ol fella like myself, who spent their whole working life in the airlines, to see such a decline especially in such a great airline like QF. I am a member of a retired airline pilot group, and we just shake our heads, and wonder what happened to standards and safety that we took so seriously, along with the engineers with whom we worked. I can only hope before there is a hull loss, that standards and safety become paramount, that QF engineering goes back to the great and proud section it once was, ( as Arthur Baird set the standards) and we can forget the freckin shareholders, because if there is a hull loss, they will leave in droves. I never worried about my safety in all 49 years of flying, so why am I starting to worry about my kids (3 airline pilots) all of a sudden? I should not be.
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You dont have to worry Teresa QF with their pissweak fleet will get a few new aircraft next year, meanwhile Jetstar will get all the new ones! Meanwhile 737-400's will operate which are around 25 years old! let alone the rest of the fleet! To give credit Joyce has inherited an unmitagted disaster which Dixon sowed. Lets see how he goes...
In other words Its over!
20's something fools have taken over the decisions in QF, pilots maybe idiots but not as idiotical as these managers, bring it on!
In other words Its over!
20's something fools have taken over the decisions in QF, pilots maybe idiots but not as idiotical as these managers, bring it on!
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Idle thought
Yes I know I'm supposed to be on night shift. BUT, one quote today really got me going. (Actually 2).
T.G. your fault. Quote ;- "and wonder what happened to standards and safety that we took so seriously, along with the engineers with whom we worked". (My bold).
Today a CASA Manager (Acting) wasted about $6000 during the hour (1 of 7) testimony he spent trying to convince a hearing that "I consider that it is a serious safety deficiency for pilots to talk to engineers, this communication should only be conducted through Operations, via written reports".
This is from an ex forces LAME, (before lobotomy).
What chance have we got with management when this sort of attitude prevails within (dare I say it) the corridors of power.
Tin Hat please Joyce and bring out the super fund, time is wasting, fish are biting and etc. etc. !!.
Selah.
T.G. your fault. Quote ;- "and wonder what happened to standards and safety that we took so seriously, along with the engineers with whom we worked". (My bold).
Today a CASA Manager (Acting) wasted about $6000 during the hour (1 of 7) testimony he spent trying to convince a hearing that "I consider that it is a serious safety deficiency for pilots to talk to engineers, this communication should only be conducted through Operations, via written reports".
This is from an ex forces LAME, (before lobotomy).
What chance have we got with management when this sort of attitude prevails within (dare I say it) the corridors of power.
Tin Hat please Joyce and bring out the super fund, time is wasting, fish are biting and etc. etc. !!.
Selah.