Its Time Mr.Joyce
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Preventative Maintenance ?
Lufthansa has its maintenance inhouse and no doubt carries out preventative checks.Doesnt appear to be the case with Qantas.They have now found faults with several other engines.Why weren't these faults detected earlier?
As Peter Greegg once remarked-----We run our aircraft harder than any other airline.
What he didn't say was that this meant shorter transit times at homebase and therefore less time for adequate checks
As Peter Greegg once remarked-----We run our aircraft harder than any other airline.
What he didn't say was that this meant shorter transit times at homebase and therefore less time for adequate checks
"Beatup", your silence is deafening. I take it that SP thrashed you.
Posted by WorthWhat.
Why then, hasn’t Lufthansa grounded its A380’s for engine inspection/engine change.
Why then, hasn’t Lufthansa grounded its A380’s for engine inspection/engine change.
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For the record
Oil leaks on A380 engines, says Qantas CEO
It's too early.....or without proper "in house maintenance" It's too late? Now suddenly we have found more engines with more problems.....
This thread contains some very interesting posts that just may highlight the results of "seven years of aggressive cost cutting" at QF.
Once upon a time QF worked with the engine manufacturers, now it appears passing the buck is the new culture adopted by the managers.
"It's too early for us to say what components or parts of the engine we think could have been the issue."
This thread contains some very interesting posts that just may highlight the results of "seven years of aggressive cost cutting" at QF.
Once upon a time QF worked with the engine manufacturers, now it appears passing the buck is the new culture adopted by the managers.
Last edited by TIMA9X; 7th Nov 2010 at 22:15.
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I'm sorry but Steve's post is... scary.
Really.That is clearly censorship. And I can't believe CASA is going along.
Because they are.
There is something really really really wrong about it.
Those guys must no be aware that they are running an airline
Really.That is clearly censorship. And I can't believe CASA is going along.
Because they are.
There is something really really really wrong about it.
Those guys must no be aware that they are running an airline
When you live....
Can anyone confirm...
...that from reading this & listening to Qantas on the news, is there any suggestion that the AD wasn't done on the QF380's.
Heard AJ again and his '90% of maintenenance is done in Australia' and that outsourced maintenance to RR & LH is not cheap.....
Heard AJ again and his '90% of maintenenance is done in Australia' and that outsourced maintenance to RR & LH is not cheap.....
Latest News,
LH and SQ now to change some engines, number unknown at this stage.
QF to change at least 3 engines. Until a fix is found it appears the life 'of the problem' is 500 cycles making it an expensive exercise.
LH and SQ now to change some engines, number unknown at this stage.
QF to change at least 3 engines. Until a fix is found it appears the life 'of the problem' is 500 cycles making it an expensive exercise.
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Steve well done. I saw your interview the other evening and not only did you unemotively state the facts, you answered each of their questions professionally and without undue embelishment. You have the power to bring the QF situation to a head. Personally, I don't care if you use each and every QF incident, or Australian avaition incident (regardless of severity), to highlight the ongoing concerns, through any form of media be it radio, television or print. I wonder if AJ would put his family on his own aircraft at the minute?
...and having outsourced your engines and fired the Qantas engine experts, Qf's only avenue of action is: "RR what do you want us to do?
This usually lasts about five years until you realise that being lobotomised by your outsourcer is not a profitable idea. How many QF engine experts have been hired by RR? I'll bet more than one.
One then begins the painful process of reacquiring the knowledge to understand what is happening to your engines, so as to be able to ask sensible questions of your service provider. let alone asking sensible questions of potential new engine providers.
After that you begin the process of taking the maintenance back in house.
Been there, done that.
This usually lasts about five years until you realise that being lobotomised by your outsourcer is not a profitable idea. How many QF engine experts have been hired by RR? I'll bet more than one.
One then begins the painful process of reacquiring the knowledge to understand what is happening to your engines, so as to be able to ask sensible questions of your service provider. let alone asking sensible questions of potential new engine providers.
After that you begin the process of taking the maintenance back in house.
Been there, done that.
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QF is well known for buying a type, bringing it back to SYD and then pulling it apart into 1million pieces, then refig. Do they refig engines the same way?. Is that why SQ, BA, et al are still happily flying around the world. Have they changed fuel, performance systems? All a bit odd.
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Sunfish , who do you mean by " firing engine experts "if you mean the guys in the CoE in Sydney you are wrong , I and other union delegates negotiated a retraining package for those who wanted to stay , some did others took a package . Contrary to what you might think , the ALAEA and Sp are not the only association/ Union who represent engineers . In fact the ALAEA was born out of those who broke away from the old AEU / ASE /ETU and formed ther own union to. Ame's are the unsung heroes .
the ALAEA and Sp are not the only association/ Union who represent engineers . In fact the ALAEA was born out of those who broke away from the old AEU / ASE /ETU and formed ther own union to. Ame's are the unsung heroes .
If you truly are 62 and are still an AME, there is no need to be bitter at the LAME's and the ALAEA, just because they could see that there is no future being unlicensed, doesn't make them the ones who shat on you. I'd be bitter too if i were a 40 year veteran at Qantas on level 13 AME rates, only at myself but.
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Ame's are the unsung heroes .
Or perhaps, you are really just a management stooge.
Cheers.
oh and PS, I am an AME union delegate.
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if Alan keeps rolling out that same old phrase about putting aircraft safety first, perhaps he needs to look at reopening Heavy maint in Sydney again.Remember AL talk is cheap.Lets see you put aircraft saftey first by backing it with action..
Unionist,by "engine experts", I mean LAMES and occasionally professional (ie degree holding) engineers who no longer work on the floor, but provide high level advice and the occasional mod or workaround to the airline management and the shop floor.
These are the guys with the brains and experience to see a problem beginning to happen long before the rest of the airline, let alone the manufacturer, does. They are sometimes called "Maintenance planners" or "Type Specialists" or whatever. They are the repository of most, if not all, of the technical corporate knowledge of the airline. These are the guys who can ask very hard questions to aircraft and engine manufacturers.
For example, Mr. Joyce now says that there have been "issues" relating to oil being either consumed or in the wrong place. Would that have shown up in oil consumption? Would one engine be consuming much more oil than another? Would oil be degrading faster in one engine than another? If there is "wear" between the IP shaft and disk, shouldn't this show up as increased iron levels in a spectrographic oil analysis program (SOAP)?
Who was consulted at Qantas before the RR AD was issued? Did QF have a hand in the construction and issue of the AD? Did Qantas not know that the AD was coming, and when it was coming? Did Qantas know the contents of the AD? Was Qantas already doing the planning to implement the AD, including scheduling aircraft for engine inspections / module changes and worked out any potential impact on the fleet? Finally, did Qantas ask RR what they were going to do to fix the bloody problem and when they were going to fix it?
If the answer to the foregoing questions is pretty much "No" then you have a perfect answer as to why outsourcing and cost cutting is lethally dangerous to any corporation that does it to a core competency. The guys who do this stuff and ask the hard questions used to be little old grey headed guys in cubicles who wear cardigans and read stuff all day. They are the first ones to get fired by the cost cutters because few people understand what they do and why it is necessary. It was the loss of these folk that killed Ansett Airlines stone dead. CASA had to pull Ansett's AOC because the airline could not produce the documentary evidence that any aircraft in its fleet was being maintained in accordance with its system of maintenance.
Alan Joyce has just told you and everyone else what the Qantas maintenance manual says of outsourced engines; "We don't know anything about those broken engines. We used to know a lot about engines, but not any more. We just pay a low monthly fee to the engine maker and hope they get it right according to the conditions of the contract we signed with them. This is not our problem, ask Rolls Royce."
These are the guys with the brains and experience to see a problem beginning to happen long before the rest of the airline, let alone the manufacturer, does. They are sometimes called "Maintenance planners" or "Type Specialists" or whatever. They are the repository of most, if not all, of the technical corporate knowledge of the airline. These are the guys who can ask very hard questions to aircraft and engine manufacturers.
For example, Mr. Joyce now says that there have been "issues" relating to oil being either consumed or in the wrong place. Would that have shown up in oil consumption? Would one engine be consuming much more oil than another? Would oil be degrading faster in one engine than another? If there is "wear" between the IP shaft and disk, shouldn't this show up as increased iron levels in a spectrographic oil analysis program (SOAP)?
Who was consulted at Qantas before the RR AD was issued? Did QF have a hand in the construction and issue of the AD? Did Qantas not know that the AD was coming, and when it was coming? Did Qantas know the contents of the AD? Was Qantas already doing the planning to implement the AD, including scheduling aircraft for engine inspections / module changes and worked out any potential impact on the fleet? Finally, did Qantas ask RR what they were going to do to fix the bloody problem and when they were going to fix it?
If the answer to the foregoing questions is pretty much "No" then you have a perfect answer as to why outsourcing and cost cutting is lethally dangerous to any corporation that does it to a core competency. The guys who do this stuff and ask the hard questions used to be little old grey headed guys in cubicles who wear cardigans and read stuff all day. They are the first ones to get fired by the cost cutters because few people understand what they do and why it is necessary. It was the loss of these folk that killed Ansett Airlines stone dead. CASA had to pull Ansett's AOC because the airline could not produce the documentary evidence that any aircraft in its fleet was being maintained in accordance with its system of maintenance.
Alan Joyce has just told you and everyone else what the Qantas maintenance manual says of outsourced engines; "We don't know anything about those broken engines. We used to know a lot about engines, but not any more. We just pay a low monthly fee to the engine maker and hope they get it right according to the conditions of the contract we signed with them. This is not our problem, ask Rolls Royce."
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Sunfish....very well written. Will print off that post and put in on my office wall.
As I read it my mind flashed back to people I knew in the old TAA Engineering Training School and Technical Services Department and that lost world.
I met Ron Yates (if anyone has to ask, don't, just look around at the good that's left in Qantas and you'll see) at Farnborough couple of years back and we talked at length of these things, he with even more sadness than me I guess as his life's blood was embedded in the quality being eroded. Couple of days back spoke to Frank Ball's widow and again, sadness.
And don't anyone think that in this misty hindsight there's any form of regret at growth and vibrance and low fares. The massive growth in air travel is what these folks built....even if they couldn't have foreseen the staggering growth ahead....TAA was first to bring Economy fares, business class, turbine powered travel, APEX fares etc etc. Qantas were innovators with 707 and 747 all the way and opened up the world to Australia's travellers. There is no necessary incompatibility between growth, innovation, technical excellence, and aggressive cost management. That is a myth, propagated by mean spirited ideologues who so much want it to be true that it haunts them. But it simply ain't so. You can have legacy and LCC's and excellence as well.
And the baton has been passed, make no mistake. There are a number of carriers in Asia whose growth is double digit and whose maintenance and engineering standards and capabilities are simply awesome. They know that excellence in this area PAYS FOR ITSELF.
Well written Sunfish....hope others print your post and read it often.
As I read it my mind flashed back to people I knew in the old TAA Engineering Training School and Technical Services Department and that lost world.
I met Ron Yates (if anyone has to ask, don't, just look around at the good that's left in Qantas and you'll see) at Farnborough couple of years back and we talked at length of these things, he with even more sadness than me I guess as his life's blood was embedded in the quality being eroded. Couple of days back spoke to Frank Ball's widow and again, sadness.
And don't anyone think that in this misty hindsight there's any form of regret at growth and vibrance and low fares. The massive growth in air travel is what these folks built....even if they couldn't have foreseen the staggering growth ahead....TAA was first to bring Economy fares, business class, turbine powered travel, APEX fares etc etc. Qantas were innovators with 707 and 747 all the way and opened up the world to Australia's travellers. There is no necessary incompatibility between growth, innovation, technical excellence, and aggressive cost management. That is a myth, propagated by mean spirited ideologues who so much want it to be true that it haunts them. But it simply ain't so. You can have legacy and LCC's and excellence as well.
And the baton has been passed, make no mistake. There are a number of carriers in Asia whose growth is double digit and whose maintenance and engineering standards and capabilities are simply awesome. They know that excellence in this area PAYS FOR ITSELF.
Well written Sunfish....hope others print your post and read it often.
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Many technical industries have been affected by the continental marching armies of accountants heavily armed with WMD's such as 'Executive Global MBA' from Pissweak University. All of these individuals believe that they can walk into any industry and run it profitably, normally by stripping it to a bare shop front.