Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....
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What Joe was stating and fighting for has the future potenial to affect us all
Whilst it must be quite convenient for you to bleat now, you should have thought about this at the beginning.
If you still don't get the concept, let me know, I'll use smaller words.
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Not that it matters.. but i dont work for J*.. and never paid for my endorsement for the company I work for... And we are now starting to move away from the point of this thread so not going to get into a slanging match. Lets support Joe and our industry and move forward..... U can use whatever words u like.
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Well done Joe.....refreshing to see someone stand on their dig..lets hope that he gets the total support from his peers within Jetstar...will also be interesting to see if the ex Impulse guys at the top of the Jetstar list throw their support behind Joe and not display the cowardice of 2 years ago with the EBA vote...
Again, well done Joe...super effort mate!!
Again, well done Joe...super effort mate!!
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It's a try on......
Just my take on it but I reckon Jet* are trying one on here. They might be talking it up but I reckon it’s odds on that they will lose at FWA and they know it. They don’t care though.
If they get away with it then it sends a message that no-one stands out of line and it helps pave the way for their lower-Low Cost operation out of Singapore. A potential big win for them.
If they lose, all they have do is re-instate Joe, pay him what in relative terms for them is small bucks and they’re back to where they were beforehand. Yeah, they've lost a small battle, but they’ve still made life very uncomfortable for one bloke by dragging him and his family through hell so it still stands as a warning to anyone else who shows dissent. It achieves the same thing, just at a different cost. They think they’re being smart but these actuaries and accountants are effing thick how they fail to realise how much good-will and high morale in their pilot ranks can save them. Their valuation of the dollar worth of this is wrong and come the revolution they’ll be up against the wall right behind CEO’s and IR Consultants!
Back to Joe;
The best thing we can all do to help Joe, so that at least he doesn’t suffer the financial stress Jet* has attempted to impose on him, is to donate now if you haven’t already done so.
If they get away with it then it sends a message that no-one stands out of line and it helps pave the way for their lower-Low Cost operation out of Singapore. A potential big win for them.
If they lose, all they have do is re-instate Joe, pay him what in relative terms for them is small bucks and they’re back to where they were beforehand. Yeah, they've lost a small battle, but they’ve still made life very uncomfortable for one bloke by dragging him and his family through hell so it still stands as a warning to anyone else who shows dissent. It achieves the same thing, just at a different cost. They think they’re being smart but these actuaries and accountants are effing thick how they fail to realise how much good-will and high morale in their pilot ranks can save them. Their valuation of the dollar worth of this is wrong and come the revolution they’ll be up against the wall right behind CEO’s and IR Consultants!
Back to Joe;
The best thing we can all do to help Joe, so that at least he doesn’t suffer the financial stress Jet* has attempted to impose on him, is to donate now if you haven’t already done so.
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I find it interesting the comments regarding the expectation/requirement/demand for all J* pilots to get behind and support(financially as well) JE.
But I would be interested to know how many QF guys are getting behind him. This has been labelled a J* issues from day 1. Day 1 for most of you is when FSO136 was issued. When in fact day 1 was a little over 6 years ago.
According the alot of people on here, J* has been a blight on the aviation industry in this country and only survived because of the might of Qantas and some clever accounting. Maybe, maybe not. But lets not forget one thing. J* isn`t the ones that havent hired for 2 years. J* isn`t the one the is not growing. J* isn`t the one that has got pilots sitting in the back seat of a 747 or 380 with no prospect of promotion for the foreseeable future.
This is as much a Qantas issue as it is a J* one. Everyone is concerned and p!ssed off because the next 2 A330 for J* are going to Singapore on foreign T&C`s. When in fact, the real issue should be that, Qantas are buying two A330`s and giving them to a competitor to operate directly against mainline.
This is a Qantas issue too.
And if you a still in any doubt/denial, I gaurantee that the next plane to be based in Singapore will be a 787 painted in Qantas colours and flown (potentially) by foreign nationals on foreign T&C`s. Then maybe the penny will drop. There goes your LH EBA and seniority.
But I would be interested to know how many QF guys are getting behind him. This has been labelled a J* issues from day 1. Day 1 for most of you is when FSO136 was issued. When in fact day 1 was a little over 6 years ago.
According the alot of people on here, J* has been a blight on the aviation industry in this country and only survived because of the might of Qantas and some clever accounting. Maybe, maybe not. But lets not forget one thing. J* isn`t the ones that havent hired for 2 years. J* isn`t the one the is not growing. J* isn`t the one that has got pilots sitting in the back seat of a 747 or 380 with no prospect of promotion for the foreseeable future.
This is as much a Qantas issue as it is a J* one. Everyone is concerned and p!ssed off because the next 2 A330 for J* are going to Singapore on foreign T&C`s. When in fact, the real issue should be that, Qantas are buying two A330`s and giving them to a competitor to operate directly against mainline.
This is a Qantas issue too.
And if you a still in any doubt/denial, I gaurantee that the next plane to be based in Singapore will be a 787 painted in Qantas colours and flown (potentially) by foreign nationals on foreign T&C`s. Then maybe the penny will drop. There goes your LH EBA and seniority.
Last edited by metrosmoker; 27th Nov 2010 at 22:38.
Nuthinondaclock I would imagine Jetstar have a fairly good case against Joe, after all the contracts are fairly specific as to what you can and can't say to the public. Particularly if you can be identified as an employee. Sure good on him for standing up for what he believes in, but seriously what did anyone expect would happen? That Jetstar would see the light and go 'oh yeah, perhaps we should reconsider the Asia move'. Or maybe that the public would stop buying $20 airfares in disgust.
Shed Dog You hit it on the head, it seems the Jetstar boys are just upset that what they did to everyone else in the industry is now happening to them.
Shed Dog You hit it on the head, it seems the Jetstar boys are just upset that what they did to everyone else in the industry is now happening to them.
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Joyce On ABC Sunday
A somewhat weak interview of AJ by Alan Kohler.Typical crap about safety is our culture and focus.
When asked about JE Joyce responded by expressing his disappointment at Joe not responding to mangement invitations to "come in and discuss the problems" as other pilots had.
Joyce is looking more like a puppet every day
When asked about JE Joyce responded by expressing his disappointment at Joe not responding to mangement invitations to "come in and discuss the problems" as other pilots had.
Joyce is looking more like a puppet every day
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These armchair lawyers who think that one contravention (or even a few) of a minor administrative rule means you deserve to get the sack are just plain wrong, god help us all if this is industrial law these days.
Joe did break a rule, but I am certain that Joe still has a very strong case.
Just like any legal matter there must be a reasonableness test, and Jetstar have failed it (and almost by there own admission).
What injury did Jetstar suffer? Virtually none, yet the punishment to Joe was severe.
If someone trespasses on your property, there is no doubt that they have done something wrong, it doesn't mean you can shoot them dead.
Remember his article was only in one online news site for about two days, now as a result of Jetstars heavy handedness it is now everywhere. They can't argue that they are concerned about their reputation if they are the ones that made a federal case (literally it seems) out of it.
Money sent. Go Joe!
Joe did break a rule, but I am certain that Joe still has a very strong case.
Just like any legal matter there must be a reasonableness test, and Jetstar have failed it (and almost by there own admission).
What injury did Jetstar suffer? Virtually none, yet the punishment to Joe was severe.
If someone trespasses on your property, there is no doubt that they have done something wrong, it doesn't mean you can shoot them dead.
Remember his article was only in one online news site for about two days, now as a result of Jetstars heavy handedness it is now everywhere. They can't argue that they are concerned about their reputation if they are the ones that made a federal case (literally it seems) out of it.
Money sent. Go Joe!
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Nuthinondaclock got it exactly right.On the surface this is about Joe but the real agenda is to shoot across your bows and ensure you piddling pilots stay firmly supressed in your lowly positions playing with your little toy aeroplanes leaving the important business to the big boys.
It is purely designed to keep a repressed, scared group that way for as long as possible.
Only problem with the that theory is that globally, airlines are getting hungrier for experienced crews by the day. Where I work is becoming like a J* old boys club!
The theory that 'we don't care how many pilots we lose, there will always be more to fill their shoes' is rapidly becoming unworkable. Trying the dodgy overseas-trained unknown quantity route for new pilots can only end in tears.
It is purely designed to keep a repressed, scared group that way for as long as possible.
Only problem with the that theory is that globally, airlines are getting hungrier for experienced crews by the day. Where I work is becoming like a J* old boys club!
The theory that 'we don't care how many pilots we lose, there will always be more to fill their shoes' is rapidly becoming unworkable. Trying the dodgy overseas-trained unknown quantity route for new pilots can only end in tears.
Nunc est bibendum
Metrosmoker
Then maybe the penny will drop.
Let's not even bother getting into the relative flow of subs from QF pilot members compared to J* pilot members of AIPA. After all, it is a pilots association and looking after Joe is in keeping with what the aims of AIPA has always been.
Last edited by Keg; 28th Nov 2010 at 00:59. Reason: Had to fix UBB code.
Thats a bit rich Keg.
AIPA was formed from the ashes of the AFAP overseas branch, when that group broke away, in part, because they felt it inequitous that they should be contributing, what they considered to be, a disproportionate sum to the betterment of GA. That same part of the industry that they were complicit in the plunder of, to get QF cadets their all important command hours.
That same selfish attitude will manifest itself again when the aims of VIPA run contrary to the aims of AIPA.
At the moment it suits AIPA to support Joe. If it was not in their self interest they wouldn't lift a finger.
The leopards spots are just as bright as they ever were.
Go Joe, you desrve the support. Sadly, you have more spine than the majority. What a force we could be if everyone was as proactive for the COMMON good.
Maui
AIPA was formed from the ashes of the AFAP overseas branch, when that group broke away, in part, because they felt it inequitous that they should be contributing, what they considered to be, a disproportionate sum to the betterment of GA. That same part of the industry that they were complicit in the plunder of, to get QF cadets their all important command hours.
That same selfish attitude will manifest itself again when the aims of VIPA run contrary to the aims of AIPA.
At the moment it suits AIPA to support Joe. If it was not in their self interest they wouldn't lift a finger.
The leopards spots are just as bright as they ever were.
Go Joe, you desrve the support. Sadly, you have more spine than the majority. What a force we could be if everyone was as proactive for the COMMON good.
Maui
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Keg,
I find it interesting that you feel QF pilots should support one star pilots, given the one star pilots actions will be the main catalyst for any issues with future pay and conditions.
One could suggest that, they've already knowingly done QF pilots a dis-service , do they deserve your trust ?.
I'm sure there are some great folks among them, but, if in the future they were offered your job if they'd do it for less coin, do you think they would ?, they already have once.
It is not my intension to bag one star pilots, but, IMHO they should hang their heads in shame, their conscious decision caused this (there were many many people saying do not do it,,,, but they did) and I believe they have no right to complain.
I find it interesting that you feel QF pilots should support one star pilots, given the one star pilots actions will be the main catalyst for any issues with future pay and conditions.
One could suggest that, they've already knowingly done QF pilots a dis-service , do they deserve your trust ?.
I'm sure there are some great folks among them, but, if in the future they were offered your job if they'd do it for less coin, do you think they would ?, they already have once.
It is not my intension to bag one star pilots, but, IMHO they should hang their heads in shame, their conscious decision caused this (there were many many people saying do not do it,,,, but they did) and I believe they have no right to complain.
Nunc est bibendum
Maui, having had the opportunity to discuss the reasons behind QF drivers leaving AFAP and becoming AIPA with some of those intimately involved in it, my assessment is that you're telling just a very tiny part of the story.
Perhaps a larger part of the story is that the domestic pilots at the time (Ansett, TAA, Ipec) had the numbers in AFAP. The net result was sacrificing many long haul issues to feather their own nests in the domestic arena.
I'm very proud to be a member of AIPA who as a group stands up for QF group pilots in the belief of furthering the profession.
Shed Dog Tosser, what the original members of Impulse and J* did to QF crew is water under the bridge now. At the time many QF drivers begged for unity and yes, some IPC/ J* crew laughed in our faces. I've got no doubt that some of those guys would do the same again. That said, the overwhelming majority of J* crew joined after these times. In that respect, once they've joined, both they and the current QF pilots would be nuts if they didn't see that our futures are aligned and that we've got more in common than what separates us.
At the end of the day, Joe is a fellow pilot. His comments were spot on. He's been shafted and I'm going to support him.
Perhaps a larger part of the story is that the domestic pilots at the time (Ansett, TAA, Ipec) had the numbers in AFAP. The net result was sacrificing many long haul issues to feather their own nests in the domestic arena.
I'm very proud to be a member of AIPA who as a group stands up for QF group pilots in the belief of furthering the profession.
Shed Dog Tosser, what the original members of Impulse and J* did to QF crew is water under the bridge now. At the time many QF drivers begged for unity and yes, some IPC/ J* crew laughed in our faces. I've got no doubt that some of those guys would do the same again. That said, the overwhelming majority of J* crew joined after these times. In that respect, once they've joined, both they and the current QF pilots would be nuts if they didn't see that our futures are aligned and that we've got more in common than what separates us.
At the end of the day, Joe is a fellow pilot. His comments were spot on. He's been shafted and I'm going to support him.
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Shed Dog
That is a very cruel post and unworthy of a professional pilot.
I was not around at the time but I don't think that AIPA wanted to discuss life with the Impulse pilots. What exactly would you have had them do. Resign the moment Qantas bought their company? And has AIPA expelled the myriad QF drivers who transferred across to JQ under the MOA? Do QF drivers refuse to travel on JQ aircraft when they're on hols? Do QF drivers blacklist and refuse to carry JQ code-share passengers. Do QF pilots refuse that protion of their pay packet which is paid for by JQ profits?
The industry would be very different now had AIPA taken a firm stand to support their domestic colleagues in 1989. They didn't and life moved on.
Is this the ideal: that no Australian pilot would have ever joined VB after Ansett's demise and no Australian pilot would have ever flown for JQ?
Really?
That is a very cruel post and unworthy of a professional pilot.
I was not around at the time but I don't think that AIPA wanted to discuss life with the Impulse pilots. What exactly would you have had them do. Resign the moment Qantas bought their company? And has AIPA expelled the myriad QF drivers who transferred across to JQ under the MOA? Do QF drivers refuse to travel on JQ aircraft when they're on hols? Do QF drivers blacklist and refuse to carry JQ code-share passengers. Do QF pilots refuse that protion of their pay packet which is paid for by JQ profits?
The industry would be very different now had AIPA taken a firm stand to support their domestic colleagues in 1989. They didn't and life moved on.
Is this the ideal: that no Australian pilot would have ever joined VB after Ansett's demise and no Australian pilot would have ever flown for JQ?
Really?
Keg
Absolutely correct. It was a part of the split. That is clearly indicated in my post. There were lots of other parts, including a large degree of self interest and ego.
And when guys were lining up for Impulse/J* did all you AIPA guys stand up and say no guys don't do it, don't give up your ****ty GA job, we will contribute to your well being. We will use our industrial might and expertise to right this great wrong. Just hang in there and we will ensure you are all employed in a shiny jet, in an orderly manner on conditions more aligned with the Q. We will help you????
Nuff said. this is supposed to be about support for Joe.
Maui
Absolutely correct. It was a part of the split. That is clearly indicated in my post. There were lots of other parts, including a large degree of self interest and ego.
And when guys were lining up for Impulse/J* did all you AIPA guys stand up and say no guys don't do it, don't give up your ****ty GA job, we will contribute to your well being. We will use our industrial might and expertise to right this great wrong. Just hang in there and we will ensure you are all employed in a shiny jet, in an orderly manner on conditions more aligned with the Q. We will help you????
Nuff said. this is supposed to be about support for Joe.
Maui