Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....

[beaver_rotate]

Stick it up em' 2 dads!!!

[Normasars]

Fender and Lookleft etc

One fundamental issue you guys forget to acknowledge here is YOU AND ONLY YOU agreed to this deal. Nobody twistered your arms to sign on the dotted line. Please don't tell the rest of us that you were not aware of the industrial minefield you embarked upon when you accepted this cr@p. It is unbelievably hypocritical for people like FENDER to call those in mainline "losers" after he signed up for what he obviously knew was a sh1te sandwich and now expects those who he accuses as being losers to help out.

Caveat Emptor my friend. If you don't know what that means let me translate into plain English. "BUYER BEWARE".

Lookleft, I and a few others have been saying on this forum for a few years now that the industrial masterminds contracted by QF(ie Oldmeadow Consulting) are light years ahead of the game(and pilots and unions btw) and what is happening now was mapped out in the embrionic stages of JQs inception. What is going on now behind closed doors will come to fruition in a few years. Pilots will be forever trying to play catch-up against this mob.

I begrudgingly feel sympathy for the JQ drivers to a certain degree. But I wonder whether they ever had any feeling of betrayal to the incumbents when they decided to undermine the entire wage system due to nothing but selfishness on their own behalf; and now EXPECT that the very people they shat in the face of, will extend the olive branch and help them in their cause.

And Fender, BTW I no longer work for QF. Walked about 12 mths ago to much greener pastures. There are alternatives out there. Take the brown coloured glasses off and have a look around.

[Monorail]

Lookleft, I and a few others have been saying on this forum for a few years now that the industrial masterminds contracted by QF(ie Oldmeadow Consulting) are light years ahead of the game(and pilots and unions btw) and what is happening now was mapped out in the embrionic stages of JQs inception. What is going on now behind closed doors will come to fruition in a few years. Pilots will be forever trying to play catch-up against this mob.

Never has a truer word been spoken.

Oh, and if Oldmeadow & Co are only light-years ahead then that would be them having an off day.

[Lookleft]

Norm- I agree with you regarding the company strategies already having been mapped out well in advance of their public airing. This was clearly highlighted when Jetstar was first started and AIPA had no input into the conditions and were only able to put together the MOU at short notice.

Thankyou for the Latin lesson (here's a free English lesson-twisted is the correct spelling) and that applies to you equally in your overseas job.

The big issue here though is not about pay and conditions its about career and profession which Jetstar is fundamentally trying to change. This is the reason that AIPA are involved and the reason Mainline pilots have attended the meetings to voice their concerns at FSO 136. It was the thrust of Joe's speech at the August meeting and the thrust of the media article that he had his name to.

The company is now trying intimidation as a tactic and that is of equal concern to all pilots still in the Australian aviation industry.

As for the "betrayal of the incumbents" there were plenty of QF pilots who took opportunities in Jetstar as they saw the potential for career progression. That is not to denegrate them but clearly they had a different view to you regarding working for Jetstar.

[GA Driver]

Normasars I'll ask you this as you were the one who bought it up....

YOU AND ONLY YOU agreed to this deal. Nobody twistered your arms to sign on the dotted line. Please don't tell the rest of us that you were not aware of the industrial minefield you embarked upon when you accepted this cr@p.

After going through the whole qf recruitment system, to be told at the end I was unsuccessful, what would YOU expect peeps in this situation do? Never apply to another carrier or avoid ALL qf subsidiaries?
I joined up with Jq because they were offereing a job and nobody else at the time was. What I signed up for at the time wasn't all bad, no it wasn't a QF paypacket but I had exhausted all those avenues first and was told don't come Monday! When most of us joined there was no Jq NZ, Jq pacific or inbred flying via Singapore.

With respect, to say I knew the status of the industrial minefield over 4 years ago with forever moving goalposts by the big bosses is a little inaccurate.

[Oakape]

After going through the whole qf recruitment system, to be told at the end I was unsuccessful, what would YOU expect peeps in this situation do? Never apply to another carrier or avoid ALL qf subsidiaries?

Exactly, GA Driver! It's easy to take the moral high ground when you have a job. Perhaps he would like to give you his job & then he can pontificate about how he wouldn't accept crap conditions & lower the whole industry standard, while going quickly bankrupt.

I don't know what the answer is, but if there is one it won't be as easy as telling everyone looking for work not to accept bad T & C's

[Dragun]

I disagree. I never applied to Jetstar because of the terms and conditions. I didn't think they were good enough and therefore did not apply. For the same reason, I turned V Australia down when they released their terms and conditions.

I wasn't on my high horse trying to make a point and impress my pilot mates whilst letting down my family etc., I just didn't apply for the same reason I don't apply for a job at Maccas. I feel my training and experience to date warrants better terms and conditions that that which they are offering.

Having said that, I can understand accepting a job, any job, if you have honestly exhausted all other options and have a family to feed and need income. I would make an educated guess however, that the majority of people who apply to and consequently go work for Jetstar, don't do it out of necessity. They do it because they want to fly a jet or be in an QF group airline and have the attitude "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". If everyone just didn't apply - and I mean EVERYONE because it doesn't work with just some - then the pay and conditions would be better. That's a fact. Supply and demand is a force that will never lose its integrity.

There is no simple answer though. People have their reasons and all of us should respect individual choices, even if we don't agree with them.

[WynSock]

I applied to Jetstar and was offered an interview.
After reviewing the terms and conditions, talking to mates already there and actually going over a typical roster, I declined.

I suspect the discomfort of some of the guys in there at the moment is due to not really understanding what they were signing up for. The odour of down-to-the-bone cost-cutting pervades the whole organisation.

I admit I wasn't desperately looking for a any job, but I think you would have to be!

My current employers conditions have full pay from day one. That is a good start to a relationship with any employer.
They never asked me to bend over and take it like JQ does - right from day one.

[Crew rest.]

I applied to Jetstar too. In my application I included that I have 10,000+ hrs,7,000+ jets, 4 heavy jet type ratings and heavy jet command experience. Also previous training experience and degree.

I also said that:

• I would not pay for my type rating and
• Would not pay my own relocation costs.

They have never contacted me for an interview. I guess that suits me just fine.

[Ken Borough]

I also said that:

• I would not pay for my type rating and
• Would not pay my own relocation costs.

Why should they? If they are after say an A320 rated driver, surely they are entitled to ignore anyone who doesn't have that rating? Should job advertisments say "those without an #330 type rating need nt apply"?

As for relocation costs, if I change jobs of my own volition that requires me to move from Brisvegas to Adelaide, why should my proposed employer bear this cost? After all, it's me that applied for the job. Why should you be treated differently - God;s gift to the world, eh? If JQ wanted to emply you by seeking you out etc., then maybe there is a case to be made for payment of relocation expenses.

Arrogance, like ignorance, is bliss.

[clear to land]

Ken, the RFDS will pay for relocation costs (with a requirement to be reimbursed if you don't stay for 2 years). The ADF pays for relocation costs. That way they ensure that their employee is not struggling with extra expense from Day 1- now there is a novelty-effective man management. Thats right, I forgot, we are talking about an Airline- the top of the tree- they must do everything absolutely right!. Why would you want a happy employee????

[Crew rest.]

I think you missed my point, Ken. If a company wants me to fly their aircraft, they can train me. I don't subsidise their operation. I am a potential employee, not a charity or an investor. My current company paid for my Boeing type rating-it happens.*

I have a life and family in one city-if they want me to move some where for an operational reason, they can pay for me to relocate. I don't see that this is too much to ask; quite reasonable in other industries.

A mate who is a chemical engineer applied for another job. He got:

• Business class air travel to and from the interview.
• Hotel accomodation at the Hyatt while he played pyschometric games with the other candidates.
• Meal allowance during 2 days of interviews.
• Full relocation costs.
• 3 months in serviced appartment in new city.
• Company paid stamp duty on new home purchase.

Asking for a better deal is hardly seeing myself as "God's Gift". Have a little self-respect and negotiate. I agree with what many others have said-if you say "Yes" to a contract then you wear it. Only don't complain later when you get moved from MEL to DWN and they tell you that you pick up the tab.

My current employers condition have full pay from day one. That is a good start to a relationship with any employer.

* As Wynsock and I have found, they are out there. At my current employer, I said at interview that it was appropriate that they pay for my rating and more money then was offered. When contract details were sent, guess what??

And they have a happy, loyal employee- winners all round.

[ejectx3]

Bloody terrrible state of affairs, but the FAM does have a clause prohibiting talking to the media...
1.5.3 Information to the Media....

I had better not post it here in case I get shot.

And yes Joe has been terminated.

[GA Driver]

crew rest. Thats a pretty good position to be in with your experience levels + type ratings etc, it's also safe to assume that should I have that experience, I too would spell out that I wouldn't be prepared to pay for the things you've outlined.
But with the level of experience you have I doubt you are new to this game and whilst it's a guess on my part, it would be probable that there wasn't any low cost operators asking for BYO endorsements back when you commenced an airline career?? So whilst I agree with your point, the state of the industry just isn't the same as guys who entered the industry 10+ years ago.

So it's back to what I said a few posts ago, what are people meant to do in the interim, sit back and wait for something to change whilst the people who DO earn great incomes on great T+C skim all the cream and do nothing themselves?


Back to the topic, YES, Joe HAS been sacked.

[Capt Kremin]

That passage in the FAM is pretty all-encompassing. So all encompassing as to be unworkable.
If a pilot tells his wife about an incident he had during the day, he is in breach of the FAM. I wonder how many pilot managers ever talked about any aspect of Qantas operations to someone not in the Company, including their immediate family?

If they do, they are as guilty as Joe.

[Iron Bar]

4.41 Company Business
Jetstar Airways staff shall not discuss company business with representatives of
the media or the public nor communicate in writing to the media or public.
Staff must carefully guard against discussing company matters within the hearing of members of the public.

[Jabawocky]

So all encompassing as to be unworkable.

And herein may lie the angle of attack, you are not permitted to impose restrictions in any contract that are unworkable.

And what is the intent of 4.41 ? I would normally read that as to mean commercial in confidence type of restriction. The article published in the media was a general article on the state of affairs in the commercial aviation world with references to the cadet scheme's and offshoring of pilots etc by Jetstar. Neither of which is commercial in confidence because it was widely public knowledge.

The AIPA should take a firm stand here. And anywhere else they deem necessary.

Where is Horatio Leafblower for an opinion on this?

[Crew rest.]

GA Driver, you have asked a very, very worthy question:

what are people meant to do in the interim, sit back and wait for something to change whilst the people who DO earn great incomes on great T+C skim all the cream and do nothing themselves?

Organise yourselves is the only thing that I think would help solve the problem our industry faces. I have been a member of a union since I entered the work force. I have been variously a member of a union since I left school and entered the work force. If you aren't in a union, you have rocks in you head.

I take your point, it is very difficult to negotiate when you are new to the industry and perhaps do not have negotiating skills. It is a skill to ask for more than on offer and not talk your way out of a job. You cannot bang the table with your fist or demand. What you need to say is that "the current discussion is interim until the contract is on offer to be signed. It would be preferable/appropriate/desirable/etc that the contract should include X,Y and Z". The best way to negotiate is collectively.

My application to Jetstar was 4 years ago. Add another type rating and 2,000 hrs to my initial application, I still have net heard from them. At the risk of being labeled smug, I think that my application and their lack of response is proof that Jetstar is not interested in employing highly experienced people, only those who will pay their way and support their immediate bottom line(any Journos reading this??).

What has happened to Joe is a disgrace. How can we support this guy and his family? Is there a fund? I would like to contribute $500.

What is AIPA doing? Is a strike being proposed? I know what the TWU would do if this happened to a Truckie.

[Normasars]

I know what the TWU would do if this happened to a Truckie.

Crew rest. Therein lies your answer.

Truckies stick together. "One in; All in"

And back on topic. What has happened to Joe is outrageous. But one would assume that a man of his calibre would have evaluated the ramifications before going public. Possible consequences must have been in his mind before blowing the whistle.

[Mstr Caution]

The World Today - Jetstar safety record on show 15/11/2010

When asked about GK's submission to the senate enquiry regarding crew training standards.

BRUCE BUCHANAN: Oh, absolutely. I think anyone can raise any concerns they have got.

& in the full audio version, BB comments on staff engagement.

B.B: they are passionate, engaged about what we do.