Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....

[Chimbu chuckles]

Personally I believe, any QF pilot that offers support, be it financial or emotional assistance to this group, will be doing so at their own demise.

In previous posts I have offered my personal low opinion towards this culture and those within it to the readers of PPRuNe, have stopped only marginally short of using the "S" word to describe my view of their actions, no response from the effected parties, intelligent or otherwise.

Why would any of you honourable, intelligent and morally just individuals posting here assist our morally corrupt counterparts, let them fend for themselves, they have done nothing to help us, quite the opposite infact.

Gee, SDT, last I looked the current JPC was populated, in its entirety, by AIPA members.

I am struggling to understand how that isn't a conflict of interest. Maybe it isn't...but who is REALLY pulling the strings behind the scenes at the JPC?

Taking a global view of this entire ****fight I find myself asking which pilot group is REALLY being attacked here - it certainly isn't the J* pilots, or the Sunstate pilots.

That just leaves the QF mainline pilots.

I could certainly accept the premise that they perceive THEIR T&Cs are threatened by QF management.

The vast majority of posters on these type of threads, for years now, purport to be mainline pilots and to a man they all demand everyone else forgo employment opportunities to protect THEIR T&Cs.

Unity! they call from the ramparts.

We see constant reference to the industrial provenance of the senior J* management pilots - there are lots of ex AN 89ers and some 'others' - the mainline guys conveniently forget that Q Dom is heavily populated with the same subcategory, 'others'.

QF pilots split from AFAP and then didn't support AFAP in 89 and have repeatedly displayed an utter lack of regard for other pilots within the QF Group...didn't want to know about Impulse pilots.

But brothers this is all ancient history. Put it behind us and lets move forward united.

I ask myself which is the ONLY pilot group not actively fighting for QF mainline T&Cs?

I see 1 group prodding another with a long sharp stick but I don't see them actually doing a whole helluva lot else.

Why on earth would a group of pilots who have experienced enormous gains in T&Cs in an airline that is expanding rapidly and offering them not only a very good lifestyle/work mix, and career advancement, but opportunities to experience other cultures and types of operation, while maintaining their basing and seniority within their current operation, WANT or NEED to have a November to Remember?

What has happened in the last 4 years in J* that would explain a group of pilots getting so worked up that a couple of them feel SO strongly that they do stuff that leads to their sacking?

This just doesn't happen in a pilot group experiencing explosive growth in pay and rapid promotion.

Are there mysterious dark forces acting in the background?

This is like watching the Cold War - the main protagonists never fight each other but there is near constant proxy wars being fought in little 3rd world countries.

[Capt Kremin]

CC, normally I look forward to your posts but you just have set, IMHO, a new low for failure to see the big picture, and dragging up of irrelevant ancient history for no reason other than display your bitterness.

I could go on but you just lost me forever with that piece of dissembling dross.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Me bitter?

Nope I don't have a dog in this fight - never applied to QF (despite father being a mainline pilot) or J*.

Been an expat for near on 25 years.

Watching this from a distance though I feel like I am watching the 89 wars all over again - which I did from Wau in PNG.

I have lost you? How about you address what I have written rather than just grace me with your disdain and leave.

I have posted what I perceive to be the situation from a far and unemotional distance...If I am wrong convince me.

Have you other examples of a company like J* where the pilots were in an uproar?

Why didn't the mainline guys have a November to Remember?

Or Sunstate pilots?

The big picture?

What that maybe the J* pilots will be next in this tireless war against pilots T&Cs/race to the bottom? Maybe - but then I would expect J* pilots to fight that battle not demand that Rex pilots destroy their careers on a promise from perfect strangers.

Or that some how this ****fight in J* will lead to them being offered mainline T&Cs?

Never going to happen.

[Going Boeing]

Posted by Chimbu chuckles
Taking a global view of this entire ****fight I find myself asking which pilot group is REALLY being attacked here - it certainly isn't the J* pilots, or the Sunstate pilots.

That just leaves the QF mainline pilots.

If you can't see that Jetstar pilots (along with the entire Airline Pilot profession) are under attack by this plan to have flying done by lower paid pilots working for an offshore shelf company then you are industrially naive.

Like CK, I usually enjoy your posts but you've lost the plot with your recent ones.

[Keg]

Chimbu Chuck. There are some points you raise in your post that need a response.

1. '89 was 21 years ago. The current AIPA exec are all about the 20-25 year mark in QF. I'd suggest that AIPA actions of '89 are the last thing on their mind given that these days. Even back in '89 they were all S/Os looking at F/O promotion at the time (which incidentally was stagnant from about '90 through to mid '94) and so would have had little to do with the decision making of that time.

We can delve into why the split occurred if you like (but I don't think the AFAP is going to come up smelling like roses in that discussion) and we can talk about why AIPA didn't join in the '89 dispute (I don't think the AFAP is going to look real great in that discussion either) but given that nearly 2/3 of QF crew have joined AIPA since that year I don't think it's particularly relevant to what is occurring now.

2.

QF pilots... have repeatedly displayed an utter lack of regard for other pilots within the QF Group...didn't want to know about Impulse pilots.

That's long been up for dispute. The version of events reported to QF pilots is that the Impulse Pilots Council rebuffed AIPA. The JPC under Rick Heaton certainly did.

3. Damn straight this is about unity. Looking at Qrewroom right now I can see that there are at least 20 mainline pilots who have donated money to support Joe Eakin. Some of them have committed to regular payments. I know of at least three others who have committed to regular payments who have not publicly advertised the fact.

I must admit to not knowing what your post is about. You demonise QF pilots for not joining AFAP on a doomed adventure in '89 and you doom them for the perception that QF pilots left Impulse pilots to potentially wither on the vine. Now that QF pilots stand by J* pilots to work to improve their lot (something that you wished we'd done previously) you now question the motives. You can't have it both ways on this.

Like both Captain Kremin and Going Boeing I normally enjoy your posts but your posts about the relationship between QF pilots and J* pilots has been off the mark for some time now.

Hope you're well.

[Sand dune Sam]

Chimbu at the end of the day, there has been antagonists on both side of the fence, there were the QF mainline guys who despised Impulse pilots, and there were Impulse pilots who couldnt have given a rats about mainline guys, they wanted the flying, and they didnt care what they did to get it.

Getting back to the main gist of the thread, I think we all agree that Joe has done an admirable thing by putting his own neck on the chopping block, the guy has shown more back bone than his mates at the top of the Jetstar seniority list...good on him for trying to instill some dignity back into the airline pilot profession..

The late 80's and early 90's spawned the likes of the Impulses's and National Jets, introducing paying for type ratings, bonds, bank guarentees, no one really gave a rats at the time as pilot jobs in Ansett and Qantas were hard to come by, if you stapled a $50 cheque to your application form and had $7,000 spare for a 1900 rating, you got a job with Impulse, or if you knew the right people, you got a job with National Jet..

I think its time we put it all behind us, the industry is looking bouyant again, we have seen AIPA and VIPA join forces, we need negotiators in our respective affiliations that can negotiate with integrity, respect and in a non-confrontational way, yet reminding the respective airline HR departments of the role of an airline pilot, the price we paid to get where we are today and remain where we are and the responsibilities of our role.

We have only taken this nose dive in conditions because we have allowed it, we have allowed the respect and dignity of the profession to be eroded by people with HR degrees that have no respect for us..If we have strong negotiators in our affiliations, and if we as a pilot group get behind them as a unified group instead of splinter groups undermining the cause, then we will see change i'm sure..

[biton]

Chimbu, I do respect you and I don't work at Jetstar but that line about "maintaining their basing" had me rolling all over the floor laughing. Can you tell that to my mate who has had four, yes FOUR base changes in as many years at Jetstar? Or what about my other mate who had to relocate his family after they shut the Adelaide base? Or what about the guy I know who left a European operator to take a Cairns base with Jetstar only to be told a few months after he started that he was off to Darwin (he subsequently left to fly a kingair instead)? Are you seeing a trend here? Maybe these guys are sick to death of pineapples. You're right on one score, you are out of the loop, best you sit this one out.

[Jabawocky]

Sam

As an outsider I am interested to learn more about this bit.........

the guy has shown more back bone than his mates at the top of the Jetstar seniority list

And who/what is it you are elluding to?

we have allowed the respect and dignity of the profession to be eroded by people with HR degrees that have no respect for us..If we have strong negotiators in our affiliations, and if we as a pilot group get behind them as a unified group instead of splinter groups undermining the cause

Well done

And this bit is the a summary of all industrial turmoil, get back to fair honest valuable work negotiated in an intelligent manner, something that the pilots of this country have been rather poor at.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I agree with you, SDS, about protagonists on both sides.

I don't agree with much else on this or like threads.

Posters who wish to deny the broad sweep of post WW2 Pilot industrial relations history sound to me like Global Warming Alarmists who suggest 1998 was the hottest year EVER while ignoring the Medieval Warm Period. Likewise many posters sound like Greenies trying to heard everyone towards their (utterly unrealistic) idea of Utopia.

I am going to suggest that if you don't understand the last 65 years of pilot industrial relations you will struggle to keep what is going on NOW in context.

Its a (truly) sad economic fact that when REAL wages go up employment goes down. I don't like it but there it is...and it really just IS.

If the only jet pilot wage scale in Australia was the QF mainline T&Cs J*/VB/NJS/Tiger et al simply wouldn't exist. But don't think the same number of pilots would ALL be flying QF mainline aircraft. QF wouldn't be a whole lot bigger than it is now because fewer people would be able to afford the airfares.

So when QF pilots demand everyone hold out for mainline T&Cs they are, PROBABLY unknowingly, actually calling for less employment.

Sounds pretty selfish in that context doesn't it?

For 10 years now in this place we have watched one pilot group after another attacked in turn as the destroyers of our industry - the next lot of people leading the charge downwards. Without exception that vitriol has come FROM QF mainline pilots and been aimed at, in turn, NJS/VB/J*/Jet Connect and Tiger.

I may have missed it but I don't remember a single instance of QF mainline pilots carrying out protected industrial action against what they perceive as the Great Satan.

Why is that - is it because you would have looked utterly fcking stupid downing tools to stop other people accepting employment in legal entities that are really none of your business?

Because thats really what it boils down to - the equivalent of going on strike because EK is taking flying you deem YOURS and inhibiting your career as a result.

I do remember AIPA joining forces with outside interests and saving QF (group) from the utter lunacy of the sale of QF to those c@%$ from the US - you should be very proud of that - YOU guys DID help save Qantas from utter destruction at the hands of corporate greed.

But I don't remember a lot else that uplifted me.

The sort of unity being espoused by Gen Y (and people like Keg who should be old enough to know better) is utopian BS. It has never existed, will never exist and could never exist. People have NEVER lived in the woods in harmony with nature - it was always a grim fight to survive.

As I said in a previous post you may not like all of this - I don't care one way or another - but that doesn't make it wrong/bad/immoral or any other adjective you chose.

I'll return to the main point of my previous post and ask again - WTF has happened in J* in the last 4-5 years that justifies all this angst?

When has there EVER been a large part of a pilot body ripping its employer, and itself, to pieces while enjoying impressive growth in wages and career opportunities?

Where is the evidence that J* is any less safe than any other airline - QF mainline as an example?

What is AIPA's input into the current JPC?

Emotions are running VERY high at the moment - and the first victim of emotion is rational thought.

['holic]

Gee, well let's see

I am going to suggest that if you don't understand the last 65 years of pilot industrial relations you will struggle to keep what is going on NOW in context.

I am going to suggest to you that this, and '89 in particular, has sweet F A to do with the current situation. As has been repeated ad nauseum, the majority of current mainline pilots weren't even in the company in '89.

So when QF pilots demand everyone hold out for mainline T&Cs they are, PROBABLY unknowingly, actually calling for less employment.

Sounds pretty selfish in that context doesn't it?

Once again, as repeatedly stated, if the difference between Jetstar's operation being profitable or not is the difference in pilots' salary (and it's not that much BTW) then the whole thing is pretty marginal and not sustainable. If you believe that, your believing management BS.

For 10 years now in this place we have watched one pilot group after another attacked in turn as the destroyers of our industry - the next lot of people leading the charge downwards. Without exception that vitriol has come FROM QF mainline pilots and been aimed at, in turn, NJS/VB/J*/Jet Connect and Tiger.

Yep, this is another recurring theme you see in a lot of posts. So by your logic the JPC should be advocating accepting pilots from outside J* to come and fill the positions in SIN on lesser T&Cs. Let me know how you go convincing them with that one.

Because thats really what it boils down to - the equivalent of going on strike because EK is taking flying you deem YOURS and inhibiting your career as a result.

Err .. no. EK is not part of the Qantas group and we have absolutely no influence over it. Are you able to see the difference there?

I think one of the things that has really got up mainline pilot's noses is that up until now, when we've said we would like to work together with J* pilot's we've been stonewalled (and I'm happy to be corrected with that impression). The way I see it there is not one argument applied 5 years ago in the Qantas vs Jetstar debate that cannot be applied today in the Jetstar vs Jetstar SIN debate.

[psycho joe]

impressive growth in wages and career opportunities?

Shirley you can't be serious?

[Gnadenburg]

Chimbu you were horribly wrong on the GFC and I reckon your out of whack here too.

A DEC C&Ter accepting employment at Impulse on the 717 was paid 90k with a one page contract - no overtime etc. 7 years later through diligent and mature negotiations undertaken in good faith that same individual can earn triple that early wage under an EBA that, even AIPA acknowledged, is VERY good. The most junior FO at J* now earned more than the most senior C&Ter did just a few years before and with command prospects measured in years rather than decades.

But is anybody hailing the JPC (of the day) and the J* pilot group generally as worthy of praise?

The above a doozy. The Impulse pilots provided cheap services ( and training standards ), well below the incumbents. And were rapidly expanded as an industrial weapon. Their pay rises were not in good faith at all. Again, they low balled, at a guess, due professional insecurity.

So they introduced low pay and low standards. The latter, has given the airlines the ability to circumvent supply and demand, by having not to invest professionally in an individual the same way other airlines would.

Impulse pilots have been major enablers of a race to the bottom.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Once again, as repeatedly stated, if the difference between Jetstar's operation being profitable or not is the difference in pilots' salary (and it's not that much BTW) then the whole thing is pretty marginal and not sustainable. If you believe that, your believing management BS.

No actually its not management BS. Thanks to politicians inflating our currencies to near worthlessness the cost of just about EVERYTHING is going up at a rate far in excess of wages. The ONLY thing management can control is labour costs. I find that just as distasteful as anyone but there it is. It will only be fixed when we put all the pollies and economists up against a wall and shoot them.

At some point in the wages vs productivity curve J* would cease to exist - the vast majority of J*'s customers used to either not travel as much or went via inter state bus or they drove. They didn't travel on mainline at the drop of a hat. This weekend my daughter and her fella are going to Sydney, probably on J*, for about $90 each return - they simply would not be flying if the only option was QF Domestic or the TAA/AN of old.

J*/VB etc have grown the pie - there are a LOT more pilots enjoying good careers now than 10 years ago - and if you think J* isn't a good job in its own right you're delusional.

EK and J* Singapore ARE functionally identical - ultimate ownership is, legally, simply irrelevant.

One question QF pilots could legitimately demand answers to is why have QF management meekly allowed EK to build such an enormous brand presence in Australia - why hasn't QF expanded and captured some of that work between Oz and Europe through DXB with the/a QF premium brand?

Nothing was stopping him (Dixon), short of being a clueless moron. EK is most assuredly NOT a LCC.

Yep, this is another recurring theme you see in a lot of posts. So by your logic the JPC should be advocating accepting pilots from outside J* to come and fill the positions in SIN on lesser T&Cs. Let me know how you go convincing them with that one.

I am absolutely certain I couldn't convince the current JPC that night follows day. I find that the JPC thinks they should have any input astounding. That there is the current deal is amazing given J* Sin IS as much of a separate legal entity as SQ. You might ponder the kind of management that seeks the deal they currently have - I find it difficult to condemn them.

That IS the legal situation and that IS how management sees it and if you cannot accept that then there is little hope for you ever having any credibility with the people who employ you.

Do you think having credibility with your employer is important?

Do I think the J* Sin deal is great? No I think it sucks. Its disgraceful in fact - but neither do I find it surprising that J* management would start with a low ball offer and see what happened. Do you expect them to unilaterally offer CX A scale as a starting point?

That is not how the Free Market works. If it wasn't for the free market most of us wouldn't be in aviation careers to begin with.

I have spent 25 years working in countries with ZERO meaningful employment/labour laws and truly 'evil' management has been VERY much the exception to the rule - to hear you lot tell it that is the only kind that exists in Australia.

So I'll ask again - what has happened in J* in the last few years that justifies Joe Eakins nailing himself to a cross and destroying his career?

You asking me to believe its just over J* Singapore?

For people he either doesn't know/has never met and may not even be Australian?

And make no mistake - unlike the other chap who pulled a fake sicky and was caught/sacked but who has remained anonymous Joe has probably actually ended his career.

Joe for reasons I cannot fathom has put himself in a situation WAY beyond his control. He is being held up by you lot as some sort of messiah when, in reality, he has just been a silly little boy.

I have watched for 4+ years as a proportion of the J* pilot group has wound themselves up in a frenzy over fck all. I have seen it before and it often ends this way - a bunch of people sitting around whinging at each other about how unfair 'it' all is. The classic 'conflict spiral' we hear about in CRM - and then someone does something REALLY dumb.

People who have NOT lost their jobs are STILL prodding him out the front as some sort of spokesmen for 'the movement', like some sort of ghoulish cheer squad. What his REAL mates should have done is tell him to back off.

That poor dumb fck!

Edit for Gnads et al.

It remains to be seen whether I am wrong about the GFC as it pertains to Oz - I was spot on about the world (and there are people who will back me up on that)

If you think going from circa 90k to circa 270-290k (real actual numbers) in several years is not 'impressive' then it aint me who is confused about the meaning of the word.

Lowered standards?

Care to give some examples that don't pertain equally to the whole industry?

[Lookleft]

Ok CC I'll bite. If you are wondering what has got the pilot group up in arms then try this:

- no holidays available for school holidays Christmas or Easter
- no base security for wide body or narrow body. If they view that their financial interest is better served by moving a wide-body from Sydney to Cairns stuff the effect that it has on the individual
- No transparency on payslips for allowances or overtime
- Basing VH aircraft in Singapore and paying less than the EBA while at the same time stating that they will be setting up a shelf company to employ other Jetstar Group pilots in Australia.
- Workplace bullying by sending out emails stating that they have dismissed fulltime employees before they have even told the individual.

BTW unless you are stealing flying from your fellow pilots not too many jetstar line pilots are pulling in 270-290k.

[Led Zeppelin]

CC

He is being held up by you lot as some sort of messiah when, in reality, he has just been a silly little boy.

The classic 'conflict spiral' we hear about in CRM - and then someone does something REALLY dumb.

It's a self fullfilling prophecy with these guys - Leemings and jumping off the cliff comes to mind.

And no-one should forget that the "mainline self interest" QF centric group which runs AIPA has previous form with J* - or has every one forgotten the times not so long past when an AIPA president and his cronies attacked the J* pilot group at every opportunity.

AIPA is using J* pilots as cannon fodder - REAL mates would have told him (JE)to ease off. He might still have had a job today.

Think about it.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

What Joe has done may keep you in a job tomorrow.

Think about it.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Lookleft and bookit (sorry I missed your post)

Ok CC I'll bite. If you are wondering what has got the pilot group up in arms then try this:

- no holidays available for school holidays Christmas or Easter
- no base security for wide body or narrow body. If they view that their financial interest is better served by moving a wide-body from Sydney to Cairns stuff the effect that it has on the individual
- No transparency on payslips for allowances or overtime
- Basing VH aircraft in Singapore and paying less than the EBA while at the same time stating that they will be setting up a shelf company to employ other Jetstar Group pilots in Australia.
- Workplace bullying by sending out emails stating that they have dismissed fulltime employees before they have even told the individual.

BTW unless you are stealing flying from your fellow pilots not too many jetstar line pilots are pulling in 270-290k

No xmas/easter holidays for anyone ever or just YOU didn't get what YOU want? It might surprise you to learn that we are in the business of taking people on THEIR holidays. If I get xmas off 1 time in 5 I feel lucky. Its the nature of the beast....it works on seniority...if you don't like it leave the industry.

Base security? Yeah I know moving is a pain...believe me it gets harder as you get older...but again its the nature of our industry and many others. I have been in the same house the last 7 years - by FAR the longest time in any one place in the last 25.

If they need to move an aeroplane to another base where it can get better utilisation so it can make money and pay everyones wages what do you expect them to do?

Once again it falls into the category of "Don't like it? Vote with your feet" because it will NEVER be different. Or you could join EK - like my airline they have only 1 base...but you'll be living in DXB (not your average wife's idea of paradise) doing 900 hrs/annum ultra long haul (you think you have been fatigued? You don't know ****) for no more $ in your bank account than now. Your choice I guess.

As far as temping in Singapore is concerned if an A320 Capt/FO based Sydney bids for a Sin slot he comes back 2 years later to his same seat in Sydney. Fact.

bookit your mate resigned from a jet job to fly a Kingair rather than be based in Darwin - is he a bit 'slow'? Hell I don't want to fly silly French light twins either - but I'd rather that than RFDS

If they cock up your payslip from time to time ring them up and very nicely point out what YOU think is the mistake and if you're correct sit back and it will arrive in your bank account - you're one of how many 1000s of employees? Are you perfect?

I have covered J* Sin - like it or lump it.

As far as BB's effort to set up a a shelf company to screw you all over - remind me again how many days it took for the dill to be told that was ILLEGAL and that ended it?

If they have sent out such emails that is disgraceful - but was it an honest mistake or deliberate policy? Has it happened once or is it 'normal' practice - I would be prepared to bet it was an unfortunate error - although Human Remains are more than capable of these sorts of stuff ups regularly enough to make you wonder. Either way its the sort of issue that gets sorted in my experience - the dill who sends the emails eventually gets to send one to themselves.

Stealing flying from your fellow pilots? Are you taking the piss?

The J* EBA is written in such a way that if you want to work hard you get paid ****loads. If you like your roster set in stone not so much. Most people fall somewhere in between those extremes with some variation from time to time.

So if Pilot A says YES to extra flying 7 times out of 10 and Pilot B says yes 3 times out of 10 who do you think the stressed and harassed short term schedulers will call first when they need a pilot? By your logic pilot A is 'stealing flying' from pilot B?

Are you really as dim as you sound?

I am still to see what it is you Gen Y folk are so stirred up about - apart from, it seems, life just aint living up to your preconceptions.

Better harden up - it doesn't get better.

[Sand dune Sam]

Chimbu.....well mate, that pretty well sums it up!!

[Clockwork Doll]

I am still to see what it is you Gen Y folk are so stirred up about - apart from, it seems, life just aint living up to your preconceptions.

Chimbu - thank you! With the one exception in your earlier post in which you state the SIN deal sucks (read OYY1 post of actual figures) you are the most sensible and reasoned person on this whole damn site. It's good to know that not every pilot believes that management's sole purpose in life is to ruin him. That perhaps in fact their job is to keep the airline running so that the pilot actually has a job to complain about...

[balance]

Chimbu, unfortunately, the use of your logic is why we are scurrying down this road that leads us to awful pay and working conditions, and probably a tragic outcome in terms of lives.

There is a principle involved here. You arent standing up for that principle. You are arguing against it and saying "if you dont like it, vote with your feet". Well, with respect sir, I'd rather stand up and be counted rather than run like a hyena to try to look after number one.

And clockwork doll, also with respect, you are wrong. Management is out to ruin the pilots lot. It's their job. Cut costs at any cost. Short term vision for short term goals. I said this in this forum recently, but I'll ask you again - "What price one life?"