Merged: Senate Inquiry
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JQ Cadets are definately online
The JQ cadets are definately online. I said hello to one after a flight around a month ago. Said he'd been online Since February and that there were (i think) 40 or so online already.
These would be the advanced cadets thoungh, typically in the range 300 to 1000 hours.
These would be the advanced cadets thoungh, typically in the range 300 to 1000 hours.
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The transport ministers cards are now on the table.
Albanese backs CASA grounding of Tiger
It appears he sees opposition to the jetstar cadet ship as solely a union issue.
Albanese backs CASA grounding of Tiger
It appears he sees opposition to the jetstar cadet ship as solely a union issue.
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"advanced cadet" lol
why are they advanced? Oh yeah cause they have more experience than a "standard cadet"? But hang on that can't be right cause according to BB the only way to get a suitable pilot is via cadet program... Wouldn't by his definition of "advanced" require MORE time in there superior training
But then again by normal definition that would = more experience on type and program...
Cancel jetstar as well... Kill the rot - these "managers" of lcc need some "experience" that to run an airline you must invest in safety, not just lip service.
Bring on the senate recommendations...
why are they advanced? Oh yeah cause they have more experience than a "standard cadet"? But hang on that can't be right cause according to BB the only way to get a suitable pilot is via cadet program... Wouldn't by his definition of "advanced" require MORE time in there superior training
But then again by normal definition that would = more experience on type and program...Cancel jetstar as well... Kill the rot - these "managers" of lcc need some "experience" that to run an airline you must invest in safety, not just lip service.
Bring on the senate recommendations...
"If anyone thinks the air safety regulator isn't prepared to take tough decisions and do its job, I think that today is evidence that CASA is indeed doing its job," Mr Albanese told reporters in Sydney on Saturday.
"Tiger gave evidence before the Senate inquiry that their co-pilots undertake 2000 hours of training, so clearly that had been met."
He doesn't even understand the difference between training and total time, what hope have we got while this 
tool is overseeing the industry??
This article needs to be forwarded to Warren Truss highlighting the ineptitude of this wally!It is quite obvious that Minister Fumblenese is still carrying resentment from Senator X and Co blocking his idea of stopping crew deadheading in the jumpseat. He hasn't even read let alone considered the 22 recommendations from the Senate Committee.
He said the government would seek further advice from safety experts.
Now I'm Curious
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BlackPrince77, the problem isn't cadets. Qantas has a significant number of them and they do a fine job indeed.
The problem is the LCC reasons for cadets.
The fact that BB/AJ and people like yourself assume people from ga automatically have lower standards or training is rather offensive and somewhat unintelligent. Some of the First Officers and Captains in my airline are ex Airforce Check and Training, Qantas cadets, Ansett cadets, British Aerospace cadets. Some of these pilots also went into ga to broaden their experience base. They consider themselves to be ex ga pilots. There are numerous other airline cadets that have been through ga as well. Some of the J* cadets might just find out how this works shortly. Maybe then we'll find out how much they want to be airline pilots.
Buchanan mouthing off about the ga pilot being an inferior product I take as a personal insult. Many of the Jetstar pilots I know are highly intelligent, skilled and dedicated individuals. Personally I'd love to compare grade point averages with BB just as a starting point.
He's just another cost cutter. Anyone can cut costs. He has disengaged a significant portion of his workforce. Not much of a CEO is he?
The problem is the LCC reasons for cadets.
The fact that BB/AJ and people like yourself assume people from ga automatically have lower standards or training is rather offensive and somewhat unintelligent. Some of the First Officers and Captains in my airline are ex Airforce Check and Training, Qantas cadets, Ansett cadets, British Aerospace cadets. Some of these pilots also went into ga to broaden their experience base. They consider themselves to be ex ga pilots. There are numerous other airline cadets that have been through ga as well. Some of the J* cadets might just find out how this works shortly. Maybe then we'll find out how much they want to be airline pilots.
Buchanan mouthing off about the ga pilot being an inferior product I take as a personal insult. Many of the Jetstar pilots I know are highly intelligent, skilled and dedicated individuals. Personally I'd love to compare grade point averages with BB just as a starting point.
He's just another cost cutter. Anyone can cut costs. He has disengaged a significant portion of his workforce. Not much of a CEO is he?
Mr Hat, your are 100% correct. It is very much an insult to every pilot that has a GA background. Many of whom are now the Check and Trainers myself included who are going to be training these cadets, so would that make the cadet then inferior. Utter BULLSH!T. Very, very, insulting. I take pride in what I do.
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Guy's I have been reading this thread but the first time to comment. May I suggest that all the pilots take this Tiger incident and use it to our advantage. Boombard the media with our point of view with regard to the safety of the airline indusrty with regards to the standard of pilots that are being put into the jets.
I would suggest the Today show Monday morning from 6am. You can email the show and I am sure if they received a large number of email from us they would air our concerns.
They are in opposition to the Qantas sponsored show on 7.
I will email them in the morning but one is not enough.
I would suggest the Today show Monday morning from 6am. You can email the show and I am sure if they received a large number of email from us they would air our concerns.
They are in opposition to the Qantas sponsored show on 7.
I will email them in the morning but one is not enough.
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This is what airline CEO's think of the Australian Regulator & the Senate processes:
The sooner we see the end of these CEO creatures the better.
Jetstar maintains that the recommendation that Co-pilots flying high capacity aircraft hold an ATPL, thereby requiring a minimum of 1500 hours needs to be further thought through.
Bruce Buchannan's letter to Plane Talking 29.06.11
Bruce Buchannan's letter to Plane Talking 29.06.11
....CEO of Tiger Airlines, Tony Davis tonight told ABC news that CASA was wrong and the groups Australian subsidiary is safe.
Plane Talking 02.07.11
Plane Talking 02.07.11
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What did the AFAP do?
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Did anyone else see Nick Xenephon's questions in the Senate yesterday?
Hansard transcript below:
Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (14:46): Always in the back row, Mr President. My question is to Senator Evans in his capacity as Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations. In the recent Senate Rural Affairs and Transport Committee inquiry into pilot training and aviation safety, the issue of using foreign crews for domestic flights was raised. These overseas based crews are employed on foreign contracts and recent media reports state that, for instance, Jetstar flight attendants on overseas contracts get paid a fraction of what Australian based flight attendants are paid and can work shifts of up to 22 hours compared to 12 hours for Australian based flight attendants. They apparently have no recourse to workers compensation laws in Australia despite effectively doing significant amounts of domestic flight work. Is the minister aware of foreign crews flying what are essentially domestic routes? What is the government's position on such workers in Australia being paid such low wages under such harsh conditions?
Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Australia—Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:46): I thank Senator Xenophon for the question. I am aware of allegations of foreign crew operating on Australian domestic routes. I think it is important to draw the distinction between foreign crew operating on domestic routes and foreign crew operating on foreign airlines that have routes through Australia. The allegations about foreign crew operating on Australian domestic routes I take seriously and I have directly raised that issue with Qantas. They have responded to those concerns. We in this government believe that Australian jobs must be protected and that foreign workers, when employed in Australia, must be protected from exploitation and are entitled to the protection of Australian industrial conditions if they are involved in domestic activities in Australia.
Overseas workers play an important part in meeting critical skills shortages in this country, but they will not be permitted to be used as a source of cheap labour. That is why we made the changes we did to the 457 visa regulations. We believe those workers deserve the same protections as Australian workers. I am advised that the Fair Work Ombudsman initiated an investigation on 20 May this year into allegations about the exploitation of foreign crew raised by the Australian and International Pilots Association and other sources. Obviously I cannot comment on that investigation, but I understand that investigations are ongoing. I can confirm that senior representatives of that agency have recently met with the Pilots Association and Jetstar on the issue. As I said, some of those concerns have been taken up by me as minister and I have sought assurances about those. It is also the case that the Fair Work Ombudsman has had the matters referred to him and has commenced an investigation.
Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (14:48): I have a supplementary question, Mr President. I thank the minister for his answer. I understand that Jetstar contracts that these foreign crews are employed under enable not only shifts of 22 hours but minimal rest periods that are not considered adequate for Australian cabin attendants. These crew members are vulnerable to severe fatigue during their shifts. Is the government concerned about the occupational health and safety implications of this, particularly as these foreign crews do not have access to the same workplace rights and protections as Australian crew and so cannot take action for fear of losing their jobs?
Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Australia—Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:49): I think there is a range of issues there and I will take on notice some aspects of the question. The first point to make is that for those persons operating in Australia temporarily on other than Australian conditions, clearly if there are concerns about safety or their shifts, they will be raised with CASA. The bottom line is that if there are safety concerns then CASA ought to be informed. I urge anyone who has concerns about those sorts of matters to raise them with CASA as the appropriate agency.
Obviously the question of industrial conditions of foreign crew operating on other than Australian domestic routes is a slightly different matter, but we would be concerned if there were any issues surrounding fatigue of crew and inappropriate hours being worked. As I said, people ought to take any suggestions of that to CASA. (Time expired)
Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (14:50): For the minister's information, there are currently no rules that apply in relation to CASA for cabin crew fatigue. I ask a further supplementary question, Mr President. Given that there is an investigation underway by the Fair Work Ombudsman, will the minister liaise with the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport to see if there has been an abuse of the international rules of cabotage in relation to the use of such flight attendants on Australian domestic routes?
Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Australia—Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:50): Certainly, I am happy to take up the issue that Senator Xenophon has raised and have a chat with the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Mr Albanese. We have had some broad discussions about some of these issues, but not the particular allegations that Senator Xenophon is referring to today. We are very concerned, as recent events have proved, to make sure that we put safety as the first priority in Australia's airline industry—be they Australian owned or foreign owned aircraft. I accept that the issue of crews' hours and potential fatigue is a key part of any safety consideration. I understand what Senator Xenophon said about CASA, but I would have thought there is an overarching responsibility for safety that would allow them to respond to concerns about fatigue. I am happy to take that matter up as well with the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport because I would be concerned if that was not treated as a very serious issue. (Time expired)
Hansard transcript below:
Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (14:46): Always in the back row, Mr President. My question is to Senator Evans in his capacity as Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations. In the recent Senate Rural Affairs and Transport Committee inquiry into pilot training and aviation safety, the issue of using foreign crews for domestic flights was raised. These overseas based crews are employed on foreign contracts and recent media reports state that, for instance, Jetstar flight attendants on overseas contracts get paid a fraction of what Australian based flight attendants are paid and can work shifts of up to 22 hours compared to 12 hours for Australian based flight attendants. They apparently have no recourse to workers compensation laws in Australia despite effectively doing significant amounts of domestic flight work. Is the minister aware of foreign crews flying what are essentially domestic routes? What is the government's position on such workers in Australia being paid such low wages under such harsh conditions?
Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Australia—Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:46): I thank Senator Xenophon for the question. I am aware of allegations of foreign crew operating on Australian domestic routes. I think it is important to draw the distinction between foreign crew operating on domestic routes and foreign crew operating on foreign airlines that have routes through Australia. The allegations about foreign crew operating on Australian domestic routes I take seriously and I have directly raised that issue with Qantas. They have responded to those concerns. We in this government believe that Australian jobs must be protected and that foreign workers, when employed in Australia, must be protected from exploitation and are entitled to the protection of Australian industrial conditions if they are involved in domestic activities in Australia.
Overseas workers play an important part in meeting critical skills shortages in this country, but they will not be permitted to be used as a source of cheap labour. That is why we made the changes we did to the 457 visa regulations. We believe those workers deserve the same protections as Australian workers. I am advised that the Fair Work Ombudsman initiated an investigation on 20 May this year into allegations about the exploitation of foreign crew raised by the Australian and International Pilots Association and other sources. Obviously I cannot comment on that investigation, but I understand that investigations are ongoing. I can confirm that senior representatives of that agency have recently met with the Pilots Association and Jetstar on the issue. As I said, some of those concerns have been taken up by me as minister and I have sought assurances about those. It is also the case that the Fair Work Ombudsman has had the matters referred to him and has commenced an investigation.
Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (14:48): I have a supplementary question, Mr President. I thank the minister for his answer. I understand that Jetstar contracts that these foreign crews are employed under enable not only shifts of 22 hours but minimal rest periods that are not considered adequate for Australian cabin attendants. These crew members are vulnerable to severe fatigue during their shifts. Is the government concerned about the occupational health and safety implications of this, particularly as these foreign crews do not have access to the same workplace rights and protections as Australian crew and so cannot take action for fear of losing their jobs?
Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Australia—Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:49): I think there is a range of issues there and I will take on notice some aspects of the question. The first point to make is that for those persons operating in Australia temporarily on other than Australian conditions, clearly if there are concerns about safety or their shifts, they will be raised with CASA. The bottom line is that if there are safety concerns then CASA ought to be informed. I urge anyone who has concerns about those sorts of matters to raise them with CASA as the appropriate agency.
Obviously the question of industrial conditions of foreign crew operating on other than Australian domestic routes is a slightly different matter, but we would be concerned if there were any issues surrounding fatigue of crew and inappropriate hours being worked. As I said, people ought to take any suggestions of that to CASA. (Time expired)
Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (14:50): For the minister's information, there are currently no rules that apply in relation to CASA for cabin crew fatigue. I ask a further supplementary question, Mr President. Given that there is an investigation underway by the Fair Work Ombudsman, will the minister liaise with the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport to see if there has been an abuse of the international rules of cabotage in relation to the use of such flight attendants on Australian domestic routes?
Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Australia—Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:50): Certainly, I am happy to take up the issue that Senator Xenophon has raised and have a chat with the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Mr Albanese. We have had some broad discussions about some of these issues, but not the particular allegations that Senator Xenophon is referring to today. We are very concerned, as recent events have proved, to make sure that we put safety as the first priority in Australia's airline industry—be they Australian owned or foreign owned aircraft. I accept that the issue of crews' hours and potential fatigue is a key part of any safety consideration. I understand what Senator Xenophon said about CASA, but I would have thought there is an overarching responsibility for safety that would allow them to respond to concerns about fatigue. I am happy to take that matter up as well with the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport because I would be concerned if that was not treated as a very serious issue. (Time expired)
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It is evident that Senator X is still very much on the case post the report being published.
Given the scope of the report these issues did not get covered however that does not mean they have been forgotten!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Given the scope of the report these issues did not get covered however that does not mean they have been forgotten!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
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Finally the magic words were uttered...
I was wondering when this cabotage saga would start. The current agreements with Singapore and new Zealand do not circumvent the current rules on cabotage yet loopholes are being exploited. In EVERY other industry cabotage is the backbone of their operations. Once again look at the marine industry, it's the only reason we have one, otherwise ships would sail down from Asia every day to operate our rigs etc. When will they get a clue?
Good work senator btw, shows how little the government do know about there portfolios "we have spoken to qantas" oh and what did they say? How about INVESTIGATING it instead of flicking an email with a quick - excuse me are you being naughty mr qantas?
Anyway - end rant!
I was wondering when this cabotage saga would start. The current agreements with Singapore and new Zealand do not circumvent the current rules on cabotage yet loopholes are being exploited. In EVERY other industry cabotage is the backbone of their operations. Once again look at the marine industry, it's the only reason we have one, otherwise ships would sail down from Asia every day to operate our rigs etc. When will they get a clue?
Good work senator btw, shows how little the government do know about there portfolios "we have spoken to qantas" oh and what did they say? How about INVESTIGATING it instead of flicking an email with a quick - excuse me are you being naughty mr qantas?
Anyway - end rant!
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There is a poll running at Aviation Business: Home
It may need some Pprune attention given the current state of matters.
It may need some Pprune attention given the current state of matters.
does anybody have an idea of when we can expect some action on the senate recommendations? is this going to be one of those things that sits on a shelf for 5 years before anything is mentioned again?
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Listening to the transport ministers comments since the report, I don't think there will be movement on the requirement for an ATPL in Jet ops. His only comments have been to associate this recommendation with the unions, and state that "we will consult experts", which is political code for I'm looking for someone to give me the answer I want. You can have all the reports you like but if the relevant minister doesn't want to act change will be slow if at all.
and this minister has no concern over the fact that failing to implement this could lead to blood on his hands if we have a serious accident 10-20 years from now? surely just implementing the senate recommendations is just safer and easier for him.
what does he have to gain from not implementing the ATPL requirement?
what does he have to gain from not implementing the ATPL requirement?