Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Merged: Senate Inquiry

Old 23rd Mar 2014, 08:18
  #1761 (permalink)  
 
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cvr etc

I'm happy to defer to the significant experience of the posters on this site (gaunty) but I remain to be educated as to the benefits of recovering the cvr etc. Without recourse to this data the powers that be have already demonstrated their complete incompetence. (ie withholding the Chambers report - and then ignoring it)

Surely the issue has moved beyond the technical issues (which I suspect may prove they're f..kw.ts) to making them accountable for the facts that have already been uncovered by the senate. ie the senate knows they're f..kw.ts.; the available facts demonstrate they're f..kw.ts, so how do we stop them being f..kw.ts? The senate has already made a prima facie case which both governments and the AFP appear to have ignored - what else can the truth add?

Imagine if the recovery of the black boxes revealed nothing other than what was already "known" - perhaps the only other benefit might simply be to demonstrate that recovery could be achieved relatively simply and cheaply compared to, say, some other cost centres of the ATSB budget. Even then, with the commissioner immune to embarrassment, what would this add? The lunatics are still in charge.

Of course. it would be worthwhile having the data (the truth is important) and apportioning blame appropriately but what would change if the agencies continue to operate as before? Self serving bureaucrats reporting to self serving politicians. Viva democracy. (note to self - must stop thinking negatively)
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 08:30
  #1762 (permalink)  
 
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Sarcs...

Scary thought that if the MH370 wreckage is found in the southern search area then the accident investigation should, by rights, fall to our ATsB to conduct..
Nice try, but you need to look at ICAO Annex 13 here:

State of Registry

5.3 When the location of the accident or the serious incident cannot definitely be established as being in the territory of any State, the State of Registry shall institute and conduct any necessary investigation of the accident or serious incident.

However, it may delegate the whole or any part of the investigation to another State by mutual arrangement and consent.
So it's Malaysia's 'gig' Sarcs until/if it (Malaysia) delegates the investigation to someone else.

Note that Australia is properly performing its responsibilities:

5.3.1 States nearest the scene of an accident in international waters shall provide such assistance as they are able and shall, likewise, respond to requests by the State of Registry.
This would be without any kudos to TweedleDUMB and the ATSB - hat's off to the RAAF with the excellent job that they are doing!

But be VERY CONCERNED if Malaysia (State of Registry) in a moment of sheer lunacy decides to devolve the investigation to ATSB per Annex 13 para 5.3 Sarcs, because in all certainty it would become $$$-driven exercise under TweedleDUMB's 'Commissionorship', and going by the quality of ATSB reports under the idiot's so-called management, we would almost certainly end up knowing a good deal less than we presently know when the investigation was, hopefully, concluded in about 50 years time.

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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 08:45
  #1763 (permalink)  
 
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Man the lifejackets...

You make good points, but you probably need to understand Annex 13 a little bit here with respect to OBRs.

It's not that the OBRs may not reveal information about data/information that's known. It's the fact that effort WAS made to recover the information which may substantiate other information that's already known.

You also need to look at what gaunty said:

It actually begs the question. Are we to base investigation results on basically uncorroborated evidence and "views"!

It wouldn't be the first time that "evidence" offered on recollection was not supported by other facts. The only way that can become incontrovertible is why CVRs are installed in the first place.
In other words, the OBR information really is invaluable to 'corroborate' other information, and also to validate other information that's gained during an investigation.

There are many 'landmark' investigations where OBR data really DID provide the 'key' to what happened MTL, and to disregard the effort to retrieve that data based solely on $$$-considerations, as was seemingly done with the PEL-AIR investigation reveals a very 'flawed' philosophy and understanding of basic investigation methodology by the investigation body conducting the investigation.

Remember too MTL, the purpose of the investigation is NOT to apportion BLAME, but the way CASA approached things with the investigation under consideration might perhaps make you think otherwise.

But nothing I or any other PPRuNERs say/write is going to make the slightest bit of difference to TweedleDUMB and TweedleDUMBER I'm afraid, and unfortunately all we're doing is pissing into the wind.

Time to canvass the independents I think.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 09:14
  #1764 (permalink)  
 
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Just to re-focus everyone on why the content of NGA’s CVR is so important: There were patent errors in the information transmitted to NGA, and there are patent errors in the transcript of the recordings of the information transmitted to NGA, parts of which transcript appear in the ATSB’s report.

The patent errors are not matters of debate. They are fact.

An analysis of NGA’s CVR would, among other important outcomes, help to determine the extent of the errors.

(PS: Ben S has NFI with responsibility for investigation of the MH370 tragedy. Fortunately, for aviation safety, the investigation will have nothing to do with ATSB.)
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 23:18
  #1765 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy Beyond the pale!

Creamy thanks for the refocus.. Although I don't believe Ben has said anywhere in his MH370 articles that the ATsBeaker will now be conducting the accident investigation, that was just me stirring the pot.. (SIUYA have now corrected my post ).

Out of interest here are the comments (including from Ben himself) from the Planetalking article Pel-Air crash report failings flick passed by Govt:
Dan Dair
Posted March 23, 2014 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

I know this is an issue very close to your heart, Ben.
So my question to you (& others) is:

Aside from covering-up for their own mistakes &/or institutional deficiencies,

What are the consequences for CASA & the ATSB (& maybe the government) if they come out & admit to all their failings on this issue.?
(aside from the likelihood that the two heads of departments would be asked to resign)

(I’m thinking about them hiding from law-suits, as much as anything.?)

Ben Sandilands
Posted March 23, 2014 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

The only approriate course of action is for the ATSB report to be withdrawn and re-done to the standards expected of a first world state in relation to air accident investigations.

The remedial process should involve the replacement of both bodies with well resourced, effectively run independent bodies like the FAA and NTSB, with appropriate powers of enforcement, and which conduct their affairs transparently and in public.

And Yes, I’m aware of criticisms of the FAA, and some major stuff ups such as its botched investigation of rudder hard overs in older model 737s and a cargo door fault in older 747s. But the structure, scaled to Australia’s needs, would make sense.

comet
Posted March 23, 2014 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

I hope the many new readers of Plane Talking absorb the gist of this:
Australian government authorities rig an air crash investigation.
Hopefully some FAA officials read this too. India got classified as having sub standard aviation regulation. But at least India is doing something about it and making improvements. Australia is not.

[email protected]
Posted March 23, 2014 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

Yes, it is so easy to criticise the way Malaysian politics works.
Yet here in supposedly non corrupt Australia, we have an airline that has an ex politician on the Board of Directors and two Government bodies charged with maintaining safety standards and inquiring in to incidents, both of whom seem to be unwilling to find against the airline with the ex politician, in a serious near fatal incident.
Not a good look, is it?

comet
Posted March 24, 2014 at 5:53 am | Permalink

It’s not a good look.

The problem is that the mainstream media are not looking. They’re not covering this story. Only Plane Talking is.
It’s strange they’re not interested in this story.

And so the mainstream political parties are not interested in doing anything about it. It’s a chicken vs egg situation, and proves the media follow the agenda of the political parties. It stinks, really.

And many people working in the government statuary authorities dealing with aviation safety hope to one day gain employment in the airlines they are investigating. So nobody wants to rock the boat.

So in the end, people who should be acting on behalf of the people end up acting in self interest on behalf of their own careers.

With lax aviation regulation it’s inevitable that mistakes of the past are repeated, costing lives.

It’s actually extraordinary that a report detailing the incompetence and operational failures of another government authority can be swept under the carpet like this.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 05:13
  #1766 (permalink)  
 
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La parfum de l'ananas

The look of gob smacked on horror on the Fawcett visage was a sight to long remember as the miniscule and his merry band of 'advisors' delivered the pineapples to the Senate committee. The miniscule response a calculated insult, designed to inform the 'IOS Senators' that the trusted experts are in charge of all matters aeronautical and extraneous fumbling and groping will not; not in any circumstances, be tolerated. This response from the 'department' insults industry, the Senate committee, the tame overseas experts, the Reverent Forsyth's panel and the general public, who, one way or another pay for the pineapples.

The question now is, do the BRB order another dozen of the specially designed, pineapple accommodating bar stools, or will there be a dust up???. As brother Creampuff rightly points out, actions speak louder than words, now more than ever.

It must be quite an experience for the Senators; to be so publicly humiliated, treated as irrelevant in such a fashion. They have discovered for themselves just how foul the air safety miasma is; the depth of depravity and possibly, based on their own evidence just how deep the suppurating sores on the arse of industry are. They may have discovered just how impotent, how disgusted and how furious, these ridiculous departments make industry feel. Welcome to the club boys and girls, your trump beaten in crooked game where those without an ace or two up their sleeves are doomed to be shown the back door, exiting with a complimentary pineapple; thanks for participating.

Now what can be done is the question; I am a bottle of excellent Claret ahead at the moment in the pre release stakes on the miniscule response to Pel Air; word count 89% correct, paragraph by phrase count 92%; overall accuracy 99% (they left a very exploitable loop hole in one paragraph, which, I confess surprised me). Well, it's the WLR review next, the bottle on offer is a cracker; however, I would happily pay for a case of the same to be cataclysmically wrong and be delighted to share it with those in the Senate who made a fight against the gross obscenity, this travesty the miniscule for transport has seen fit to release. Did you see the smug, treacherous, cynical bugger actually daring to shake hands with a P3 crew going out to search for the missing 777. Rubbish like that daring to shake hands with hard working, honest aircrew after signing the Pel Air response. I'd rather chew my leg off.

We can thank the heavens for small mercies, at least it's the AMSA and RAAF searching, not ATSB and CASA; could you imagine it; I can.

Now then where's that bottle?

Last edited by Kharon; 24th Mar 2014 at 19:50. Reason: In the search areas for a suitable corkscrew and a 'proper' glass. Looking, looking
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 05:50
  #1767 (permalink)  
 
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listen cobber . . . . it do your gastric mucosa no good exposing your self to this heartache and agony.

you need to take a break and join us up here for week or two's total media blackout.

catch some fish . .. pop the corks on the choice vintage . . . . . tell us again the maker's name on the clock . . .

but if you do get off on corruption, there's always the stuff about Premier Joh, his police minister Terry Lewis and revelations just coming to light by a researcher and author on the subject who was on with Fran Kelly this morning on the wireless.

(her dad flew B24s . .. RAAF .. . . by the way , which may in part account for her feeling at times for aviation's complexities.)
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 08:15
  #1768 (permalink)  
 
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Creampuff said...

there are patent errors in the transcript of the recordings of the information transmitted to NGA, parts of which transcript appear in the ATSB’s report.

The patent errors are not matters of debate. They are fact.

An analysis of NGA’s CVR would, among other important outcomes, help to determine the extent of the errors.
THIS IS IMPORTANT!


As I previously supposed:

The $64K question therefore is:

"Did TweedleDUMB (Dolan) publish a notice pursuant to S.49(3)(b) when the ATSB decided not to recover the recorders at the EARLY stage in the investigation when he (TweedleDUMB) became so confident that the recorders wouldn't reveal data that wasn't available from other sources?"

And if, TweedleDUMB didn't publish that notice, then WHY wasn't it published?

However, if TweedleDUMB DID publish the notice, then the recorders are open slather I reckon to be 'un-lost' as Frank is suggesting.


What I'm suggesting is that IF the recorders were of no interest (for whatever reasons) to the ATSB, and if there was a Notice pursuant to S.49(3)(b), then as far as I can see it's 'open season' for a recovery effort, and that if successful, MAY provide recorded data that would, among other important outcomes, help to determine the extent of the errors in the ATSB report.

That would then open the door for a re-opening of the investigation pursuant to para. 5.13 of Annex 13, because it would provide new and significant evidence.

So, does ANYONE know if Dolan published the notice under S.49(3)(b)?
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 09:01
  #1769 (permalink)  
 
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Parliament House pineapple delivery

SIUYA maybe the better question is if the blackbox hasn't been 49'erd by Beaker why not??

On the subject of pineapples...

4:04pm: In tropical fruit news, Parliament House has been inundated with hundreds of pineapples.

Coalition MP Michelle Landry is delivering the fruits to all MPs and senators to showcase the "diversity of the local industry" in her Queensland electorate of Capricornia.

"We are world leaders in coal and beef production, crocodile farming and intellectual research through CQUniversity," Landry says.

"But you may not realise that Capricornia is a key player in Australia's pineapple industry."

The pineapples in question come from a company in Yeppoon.
The Pulse has taken custody of one of the pines in question. We can report it is a sturdy fruit. That is not too prickly and has a flamboyant coiff.


Read more: Politics Live: March 24, 2014

All ready for "Mayday Mayday Mayday" insertion time...
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 09:20
  #1770 (permalink)  
 
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QUOTE does ANYONE know if Dolan published the notice under S.49(3)(b)? QUOTE


I feel an FOI request coming on. Perhaps the notice was 'lost' and if so can it also be un-lost?
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 21:01
  #1771 (permalink)  
 
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The long game – Rien de plus

Fantome – very little heart ache and absolutely no agony; all just bloody good sport to me and the BRB, both relaxing and refreshing. For example, there is a notion floating about to prepare a brief for Albo (remember him); now in opposition. Truss has been horribly exposed by the response to Pel Air. Perhaps, with the right information and the moral high ground Albo could attack Truss in the parliament, there's plenty of ammunition. Remember no one has, as yet, heard his response. Cleverly played, this recent Truss exhibition could create havoc for Abbott, particularly when the Oh so predictable WLR is published. Truss is on bloody thin political ice anyway and Barnaby is enticing him further out into the centre. Quite a coup if Albo could do a Lazarus. Come back from the dead on matters aeronautical; rattle the Shorten cage and force Abbott to dump Truss. All to play for, the aligned Senators have provided a wealth of valid, factual information, all the opposition have to do, is use it.

As the Malaysians are about to discover, death by aviation is not small potatoes. Not when folk are hurt and questions which responsible government should have answered are not responded to; at least not in any meaningful way. There have been enough incidents and accidents recently to make even the most thick skinned politico pay attention. Our mob failed to learn the right lessons from Lockhart, have chosen to white wash Pel Air and expect to continue deluding the travelling public into the foreseeable future. Statistically, (pure math) we are due for a big one, imagine the headlines then.

The problem for the Pollies is they now categorically know how bad things really are; it's a risky business to continue in denial. They become part of the problem, guilty by association, complicit in deceit and derelict in duty by ignoring the obvious risks.

So, thanks, but no thanks mate; having far too much fun to be sat in the sunshine, boozing and murdering innocent fish, just for fun. There are windmills to tilt, dragons to slay, monsters to wrestle and a busy ferry service to run. What, leave all this, just when it's getting interesting - not on your Nellie.

Toot toot.

Last edited by Kharon; 24th Mar 2014 at 21:04. Reason: Great photo Sarcs - still grinning.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 22:48
  #1772 (permalink)  
 
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Section 49 of the TSI Act has nothing to do with the physical thing that is the CVR box and its electronic component innards.

Section 49 of the TSI Act is about the sounds that are recorded and stored in the CVR box.

The prohibition in section 53 of the TSI Act is about the unauthorised copying of the recording and unauthorised disclosure of the information contained in the recording to someone else.

If I remove the CVR box and listen to its contents, and I don’t tell anyone what I heard, what offence do I commit? If I remove the CVR box and listen to its contents, and make a public statement to the effect that it contains information that in my opinion is directly relevant to the investigation of the ditching of NGA, what offence to I commit? It’s merely a statement of the bleeding obvious.

Unless the Chief Commissioner has given a direction under s 43 to the effect that the CVR not be removed from NGA, where is the impediment to someone recovering the CVR to use it precisely for its one and only intended purpose? (A direction to that effect under s 43 would probably be unlawful, because it would be completely contrary to and a complete perversion of the policy of the legislation.)

Any objection by ATSB to the recovery of the CVR by a third party and delivery of a copy of the contents to ATSB would simply expose ATSB’s motivation as craven self-interest.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 02:46
  #1773 (permalink)  
 
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Miniscule's head on a platter!

Kharon:
Truss has been horribly exposed by the response to Pel Air. Perhaps, with the right information and the moral high ground Albo could attack Truss in the parliament, there's plenty of ammunition. Remember no one has, as yet, heard his response. Cleverly played, this recent Truss exhibition could create havoc for Abbott, particularly when the Oh so predictable WLR is published. Truss is on bloody thin political ice anyway and Barnaby is enticing him further out into the centre. Quite a coup if Albo could do a Lazarus. Come back from the dead on matters aeronautical; rattle the Shorten cage and force Abbott to dump Truss.
Interesting concept “K” especially when you consider that Albo in parliament just last week had this to say on the subject of the ATsB...

“…However, there is a role for an opposition to raise concerns about the direction of some government policy, and earlier this month there were reports that the government was considering staff cuts of up to 20 per cent in the Australian Transport Safety Bureau. The ATSB employs 110 people. They investigate accidents, safety concerns and near misses in air, sea and rail transport.

These cuts should not be considered by government. There is a need to quarantine ATSB...

...Their task is simply too important to cut corners by cutting costs and cutting staff, and I would hope that the government maintains at least the support that is there for these agencies…

….I would urge the minister for transport, who is also the Deputy Prime Minister, to make sure that these agencies are not subject to budget cuts…
…when it comes to the potential for cuts in this area, there is a very simple, old-fashioned saying: it is better to be safe than sorry. And when considering the aviation sector, you cannot afford to be in the situation whereby you look back with regret at decisions made that may have been short-sighted. So I am confident that the government will reject the suggestion of making cuts to the agency's staff….”



Albo also infamously stated at the opening of Fort Fumble’s new Brisvegas office in 2008

“..And, nothing, I repeat nothing, is as important in aviation as safety. Safety must underpin everything the industry does…”

So interesting concept “K”, however there are some rather large credibility issues on the subject of Albo's (as the former miniscule) past statements on aviation safety being sacrosanct. One example HERE..


Not to mention that he was miniscule responsible for hiring bean counter Beaker in the first place…

One thing the MH370 tragedy has highlighted is that there is no place in aviation safety for political obfuscation and playing the ‘blame game’, too many lives can be affected now and into the future for authorities to be either complacent or non-transparent in their delegated actions in the aftermath of aircraft accidents.

For Truss to effectively condone the actions of Beaker and Skull in the PelAir attempted cover up, while thumbing his nose at the Senators, has done further damage to our already tarnished aviation safety record. His inaction on recommendation 1 alone supports the argument that the ATsB should no longer be funded or overseen by his department.

As Albo states above, the ATsB’s role is far too important to be governed by budgetary constraints. Regardless that everyone survived the Norfolk ditching, the issue of whether to salvage VH-NGA’s black box should never, ever have been subject to such constraints…..FFS!

IMHO for the ATsB to be a truly effective independent statutory authority it needs to be modelled on the NTSB or TSBC and be directly reportable/funded by the Parliament (& far from the thieving, politically inspired hands of miniscules & bureaucrat mandarins).

Otherwise, from what we’ve all observed with PelAir, why have the ATsB??


And miniscule your head should be on a platter for even contemplating putting out such a shite Govt response…TICK TOCK!

Last edited by Sarcs; 25th Mar 2014 at 03:18.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 08:33
  #1774 (permalink)  

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Someone around here was suggesting that the very clever PM & C persons could sort the whole CASA thing out in a trice.

If it wasn't them who prepared the response, who did. Either way brickbats.

re: the CVR I'm still getting my head around the timelines but if it does have 120 minutes, then those 120 minutes preceding its stopping, which I imagine must have been on impact, will or should contain some interesting answers to some questions I still and I suppose a few others may have.

Time of impact 1026:02.UTC?? so we should be able to go back to at least 0826:02UTC?? which at the least includes 0940 top of the drop and period of activity prior. As well as the pre-ditching and pre-impact info, maybe some post impact who knows until we drag it up.

The other question/answer I may have missed, is did the aircraft have the capacity to carry the additional CPDP fuel, if indeed it had been computed? And, what on the day should it have been. The answer begs some questions.

Just sayin?
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 11:35
  #1775 (permalink)  
 
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I think Sunfish gave up his 'kid geniuses in PM&C fixing this' idea a while ago.

Mugged by reality ....
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 21:50
  #1776 (permalink)  
 
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Opinion - Of pooches and the screwing thereof.

Steam On - Checked.

Credibility eh? – I wonder if our miniscule has considered that. In a less than stellar career our remittance man from Qld has not assisted himself by relying on and blindly supporting 'institutions'. He cannot seem to believe, despite clear evidence that CASA is an asylum; cannot possibly consider ATSB as a right royal cock up. His response to Senate amply reflects this. Was Beaker publicly terminated with extreme prejudice?; was McComic sent for analysis before ever being allowed out in society again; alas, no. There they sit, smug, well paid and happy within their isolated, protected orbit. A cartoonist could portray Truss as a monkey at the end of the organ grinders chain, capering, scampering about picking up pennies and hoping for a pat.

There is a mountain of fact, evidence provided by a very credible Senate investigation, supported by over 20 previous 'investigations' /inquiries etc; industry comment, analyst comment, expert advice and international censure, all available to the miniscule, being steadfastly ignored.

For example; at the hub of the Pel Air investigation we find a manager (acting) madly signing off NCN as fast as they are written. In some instances, even signing them on behalf of the 'investigator' before signing them off as acquitted. A manager who was at the same time copying and pasting plagiarised wisdom to complete a secret 'report' as damning of the CASA methodology as it was of his own investigating team. All of this while Humpty Dumpty of Pel Air was put back together again, in record time. Hansard provides all of this as fact and tested evidence not supposition. The contradictory, capricious actions of this one manager, standing alone are worthy of very serious consideration by honest folk as they so clearly represent and identify much of where CASA has failed industry under McComic.

The Senators have witnessed a small portion of this aberration, been presented with solid facts and have made some righteous determinations. Miniscule Truss has consciously, (IMO with malice and aforethought) agreed to support an institutional response, which not only flies in the face of fact and logic, but insults the hard working conscientious Senators who provided the information to the miniscule. Industry is inured to such blatant insults; but men the calibre of Fawcett, Heffernan, Sterle and Xenophon are not. That committee does have the horsepower to call for an inquiry, I believe only a committee majority is needed to turn the trick (?). Perhaps the next one will include the miniscule response to their inquiry into Pel Air.

Must we now ask why even a simple Navy exercise to retrieve the OBR device from NGA cannot be contemplated? Hells bells, the miniscule will spend more on lunch and airfares the next 12 month than the exercise would cost. So, if not, please explain why not. Only this time, please try to present a believable, logical explanation; at the least one we could reasonably expect to be fooled by.

You see the miniscule, ridiculous capering at the end of the departmental chain is shameful. After the pathetic, humiliating 2008 effort an honourable man would have at least ordered a new ATSB investigation and opened an inquiry based against the evidence provided by the Senators. By supporting the institutional stance, denying the problems exist, burying the injustice and generally dancing to a flawed tune, Australia is shamed, parliamentarians humiliated and a mockery made of a once proud industry.

By the way miniscule, the hysterically barking, part blind, part mad dog tied to the back fence is yours. Please; put it out of it's misery or take it away. Because when it bites someone, and it will, the blame belong you and the blood will be on your hands.

Steam Off – Checked.

Selah.

Last edited by Kharon; 26th Mar 2014 at 08:50. Reason: Well, it's the dizzy limit - init?
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 10:22
  #1777 (permalink)  
 
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Minicule's head on a platter

Come on, Sarcs
That drongo Albo has done nothing, if not did nothing, to enhance aviation safety in Australia. Bravo for him coming out and denouncing Truss, who has been in the job "5mins", he needs to look back to what he presided over! AsA is a shambles! From CASA to ATC. AsA needs a shakeup and all the politicians want to do is shift the blame.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 03:11
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Devil Paper shuffling, Beaker and that lint moment??

The following poohtube vid shows when Beaker thought he had a “gotcha” moment of the IOS Senators, in particular Senator Fawcett :
CVR/FDR 28/02/13 - 'Shall or should' & ATsB Chief Commissioner. - YouTube

Certainly an uncomfortable point in the inquiry for Senator Fawcett and the smug look on the Beaker’s face almost makes you want to vomit.. However it was also a pivotal PNR moment for Beaker that shredded any remnant of credibility he may have once had in the eyes of the Senators & IOS members…

…Senator Xenophon on AAI Govt response (20/03/14):
I note, in particular, the comments from ATSB Chief Commissioner Mr Dolan, who admitted during questioning that he was 'not proud' of the ATSB's report into the Pel-Air incident. The committee even went so far as to state that Mr Dolan's standing as a witness before the committee had been eroded by his evidence relating to the ATSB's failure to retrieve the flight data and cockpit voice recorders. Mr Dolan justified this position by quoting a version of the statement that sets out the ATSB's international responsibilities in this regard—ICAO Annex 13—that was not in force at the time of the accident or investigation. I pay tribute to Senator David Fawcett's cross-examination of Mr Dolan in this regard, which elicited very valuable information. A reading of the current Annex 13 may leave some room for discretion as to whether the recorders are to be retrieved. A reading of the annex that was in force at the time of the incident and subsequent investigation—and therefore should have been the one used by the ATSB to reach a decision—does not provide for this discretion. The committee report states:

The committee does not accept this argument— that is, the argument of Mr Dolan.

At the time the decision against retrieving the FDR was made the imperative existed for the ATSB to do so. To ignore this imperative by arguing that the benefit did not justify the cost appears disingenuous. To imply that the revised wording in the current version of Annex 13 was the basis for the ATSB's decision in 2009/2010, before this version was in force, is even more disingenuous.


And yet this miniscule refuses to accept the factually correct, extremely damning Senate PelAir report against a discredited and severely flawed witness like Beaker…

Kharon:
By supporting the institutional stance, denying the problems exist, burying the injustice and generally dancing to a flawed tune, Australia is shamed, parliamentarians humiliated and a mockery made of a once proud industry
“God save the Queen because nothing will save the Governor-General…err miniscule!”

Last edited by Sarcs; 27th Mar 2014 at 20:08.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 05:50
  #1779 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Elephants – and the inheritance thereof.

Paraphrase W.C. Fields Elephants - I like to look at 'em, but I wouldn't want to own one. Now that the miniscule has had a chance to get his seat warm (for how long is anyone's guess) I wonder how he's getting along with Albo's white paper elephant. Takes a bit of adjustment to get used to having one about the place, especially a large, old cranky one.

I see his boy Beaker has some competition though. Centaurus has kindly put a link on Pprune – which allows access to the Canadian TSB investigation and report into a CFIT. It is a fine example of what an accident report should be. There really is something for everyone and although it is long (215 pages), it's worth the time taken; if for no other reason than it is an example of how it should be done.

I just love the opening statement; I hope the Canucks maintain the high standard when they 'do' our report card. You just never know in this world, do you?
The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Convention on International Civil Aviation, Annex 13, Footnote1 requires States conducting accident investigations to protect cockpit voice recordings. Canada complies with this requirement by making cockpit voice recordings privileged in the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act. While the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) may make use of any on-board recording in the interests of transportation safety, it is not permitted to knowingly communicate any portion of an on-board recording that is unrelated to the causes or contributing factors of an accident or to the identification of safety deficiencies.

The reason for protecting cockpit voice recorder (CVR) material lies in the premise that these protections help ensure that this essential material is available for the benefit of safety investigations. The TSB has always met its obligations in this area and has restricted the use of CVR data in its reports. Unless the CVR material is required to both support a finding and identify a substantive safety deficiency, it will not be included in the TSB's report.

In this report, the TSB has made extensive use of the CVR recording. In each instance, the material has been carefully examined to ensure that the extracts used are related to the causes or contributing factors of this accident or to the identification of safety deficiencies.
My bold.

Toot toot.

Last edited by Kharon; 27th Mar 2014 at 05:58. Reason: Can the miniscule swim, or just tread water?
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 23:35
  #1780 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Go west young man
Posts: 1,732
Snoop Mcomick relief.

To take our mind (and disgust) off the insipid smarmy images of mi..mi..mi..Beaker the (STBR) Das has provided a bit of light relief for a Thank God it's Friday...

Dear Heff...



..L&Ks

PMO diagnosis: First thought rabies but after that (above) definitely FIMD.

PMO prognosis: Retiring should see the condition exacerbate but should consider earlier retirement as the more frequent occurrences and the high blood pressure are ominous signs of a worsening condition..TICK TOCK!
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