Merged: Senate Inquiry
Captain Richard de Crespigny enters the argument:
QF32 captain enters debate on significance of A380 accident | Plane Talking
Seems Ben isn't going to let the issue slide under the covers!
QF32 captain enters debate on significance of A380 accident | Plane Talking
Seems Ben isn't going to let the issue slide under the covers!
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Sarcs, until Ben gets out of blogging and into the mainstream media nothing will happen except that the airlines will get their way. Please understand that Ben is talking to the converted and until the great unwashed begin to understand that flight safety in Australia is on a downward spiral, nothing will happen. 
Compare the 2 programs that have covered QF32. "60 Minutes" did a real puff piece, all of 20 minutes - miracles by brave Aussie crew in massive crippled aircraft- seen by large number of people who have had their opinion that Australia is the safest place in the world to go flying totally reinforced. "4 Corners" did something more insightful, actually like 40 minutes, looking deeper into the reasons for the failure and how the crew coped. However, there was one almost throw away line that related to pilot training (by the FO from memory), the rest of it was to be read between the lines. End result, pretty much the same message as "60 Minutes" but seen by a far more limited but more informed audience.
There will be no change in Australia until there is homicide on an industrial level. The issue is not on the public radar and therefore not on the political radar. It is not a party political issue as both major parties are as guilty as each other in allowing the fetid mess to develop. With tongue firmly in cheek, we need a reality program that actually looks at airline pilots and their work, not the "passengers behaving badly" rubbish. Perhaps a "Master Pilot" series where the viewing public can vote off pilots who make too many errors in their flights.
Seriously, you have to get the public interested or its futile. 
Compare the 2 programs that have covered QF32. "60 Minutes" did a real puff piece, all of 20 minutes - miracles by brave Aussie crew in massive crippled aircraft- seen by large number of people who have had their opinion that Australia is the safest place in the world to go flying totally reinforced. "4 Corners" did something more insightful, actually like 40 minutes, looking deeper into the reasons for the failure and how the crew coped. However, there was one almost throw away line that related to pilot training (by the FO from memory), the rest of it was to be read between the lines. End result, pretty much the same message as "60 Minutes" but seen by a far more limited but more informed audience.
There will be no change in Australia until there is homicide on an industrial level. The issue is not on the public radar and therefore not on the political radar. It is not a party political issue as both major parties are as guilty as each other in allowing the fetid mess to develop. With tongue firmly in cheek, we need a reality program that actually looks at airline pilots and their work, not the "passengers behaving badly" rubbish. Perhaps a "Master Pilot" series where the viewing public can vote off pilots who make too many errors in their flights.
Seriously, you have to get the public interested or its futile.
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Aviation Questions
One might consider that the ABC does not appreciate the issue, otherwise they would not have "filtered" questions on the topic???
Pehaps some sort of an approach to the ABC is required???
Pehaps some sort of an approach to the ABC is required???
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I bet there is some serious lobbying of the government to ensure the recommendations are not implemented on the basis of increased costs making Australian airlines less competitive against overseas. No option but to move more jobs to offshore bases!
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Boston Brothers
Alan / Bruce you are certainly not open to other views
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"Your ABC" is the public image, but it was accurately used in question time recently when answering Albanese, "YOUR" ABC mate.
Liberals here have no guts. When old Joh lost QLD, Labor waged a kill on sight programme. It's too bad any incoming conservatives are too lily livered to put some of the Labor despots in jail.
Liberals here have no guts. When old Joh lost QLD, Labor waged a kill on sight programme. It's too bad any incoming conservatives are too lily livered to put some of the Labor despots in jail.
This minimum requirement would mean cadet pilots would come through the traditional aviation path rather than a structured and specific jet training program. It is important to note that if these changes are adopted Australia will not be getting the best of both worlds – pilots with both hours and an expertly designed jet training program – we will only be getting hours.
So apparently all of you Jetstar pilots that have been through GA and then have done an A320 endorsement are not any good.
It is hard to see how regional aviation is capable of training pilots for all of our future requirements and cope with the level of turnover and talent drain they will suffer as pilots seek career advancement in jet operators.
I fail to see how our significant investment in setting up our own expertly cadet programs with some of the world’s best training providers
This 'reply' needs to be forwarded to Mr X so he can see how urgent these reforms are. The CEO's are clearly ignorant.
What he says about competency based training is absolutely correct...so why not introduce a competency based A320 jet training program to all the 1500 hour recruits so we have both experience AND competency. The dip**** is getting away with claiming that you either have one or the other.
And what he says about recruiting from regional/general aviation is absurd. If suddenly all avenues to a jet job are closed as all airlines employ only cadets...this is when you will see regional/outback australia suffer. The reason 99% of pilots are in outback general aviation is because they are working towards a jet or turboprop job, take away that carrot and what reason would anyone have to go and seek a job flying a beaten up cessna 210 in the bush?
If every airline operated a cadetship like onestar, the situation we would have is that GA operators would need to pay their pilots as much as miners. Why else would someone choose to live in the middle of nowhere using arguably unsafe equipment??
And what he says about recruiting from regional/general aviation is absurd. If suddenly all avenues to a jet job are closed as all airlines employ only cadets...this is when you will see regional/outback australia suffer. The reason 99% of pilots are in outback general aviation is because they are working towards a jet or turboprop job, take away that carrot and what reason would anyone have to go and seek a job flying a beaten up cessna 210 in the bush?
If every airline operated a cadetship like onestar, the situation we would have is that GA operators would need to pay their pilots as much as miners. Why else would someone choose to live in the middle of nowhere using arguably unsafe equipment??
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Rumour has it, that these changes will happen a lot more quickly than many here are thinking, much of the change can occur by CASA being directed to make certain changes.
For example, changing the act is considerably more difficult than changing an AOCM ( or any MOS for that matter ). Act requires parliament sign off where lower level documents do not, these documents still draw their " head of power" from the legislation, but are easier and more quickly able to be tweeked.
A great deal of the regulation function does not need to be signed off by government, CASA needs to be instructed to make certain changes.
For example, changing the act is considerably more difficult than changing an AOCM ( or any MOS for that matter ). Act requires parliament sign off where lower level documents do not, these documents still draw their " head of power" from the legislation, but are easier and more quickly able to be tweeked.
A great deal of the regulation function does not need to be signed off by government, CASA needs to be instructed to make certain changes.
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Bahahahahah Mr Buchanon is top class...
worlds best trainers who gained there experience and licence from where??
Brand new career opportunities for whom?
Who want to be what??
That can't be right
-surely your trainers must have 250 hrs but years of competency based training programs to ensure they aren't tainted by experience.
- surely if it's only Australians and new zealanders jetstar want to hire, and the group feels this way, they shouldn't have any dramas providing the clause aipa and soon afap would want on their eba's...
- surely they can't be pilots if "they are glorified bus drivers" only requiring "simple hand eye coordination" to complete a basic task.
The senate enquiry came to it's conclusions. It provided it's recommendations. It has heard you and your "experts" and found YOUR WRONG - EXPERIENCE does count.
If competency based training is so superior then I guess I should go join a competency based CEO program and take your job. Can't do any worse than yourself - the remuneration would be quite nice too.
I fail to see how our significant investment in setting up our own expertly cadet programs with some of the world’s best training providers, our commitment to providing brand new career opportunities for Australians and New Zealanders who want to be pilots,
Brand new career opportunities for whom?
Who want to be what??
That can't be right
-surely your trainers must have 250 hrs but years of competency based training programs to ensure they aren't tainted by experience.
- surely if it's only Australians and new zealanders jetstar want to hire, and the group feels this way, they shouldn't have any dramas providing the clause aipa and soon afap would want on their eba's...
- surely they can't be pilots if "they are glorified bus drivers" only requiring "simple hand eye coordination" to complete a basic task.
The senate enquiry came to it's conclusions. It provided it's recommendations. It has heard you and your "experts" and found YOUR WRONG - EXPERIENCE does count.
If competency based training is so superior then I guess I should go join a competency based CEO program and take your job. Can't do any worse than yourself - the remuneration would be quite nice too.
If Jetstar thinks cadets are the bees knees, put your money where your mouth is and pay for the training in it's entirety.
Oh but we can't do that
Take away the financial incentive and it won't look so good anymore.
Oh but we can't do that
Take away the financial incentive and it won't look so good anymore.
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"world's best trained cadet pilots" world's lowest paid terms and conditions!
What's the incentive to these extraordinary young new pilots (cadets)? If you really had the best training, surely you'd only accept the best job, or at the very least the same EBA the rest of the company are enjoying(barely surviving on).
What's the incentive to these extraordinary young new pilots (cadets)? If you really had the best training, surely you'd only accept the best job, or at the very least the same EBA the rest of the company are enjoying(barely surviving on).
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Mr Buchanan, and in my opinion most of the protagonists in this debate, are missing the point as to why experienced and well trained pilots are needed as First Officers in modern jets.
A two person airline crew, like as the majority of the Jetstar and QF flights that are flying right now requires both pilots to act as a filter for the potential human errors of ATC, loaders, engineers, other pilots but most critically... each other.
Having four bars on my shoulders does not indemnify me from gross human error. As a QF captain I am spoiled by the quality of the first officers I fly with. I respect their opinions because that respect has been earned by virtue of the many thousands of hours flying under all conditions that they have accumulated.
So when one of them expresses concern over some aspect of my operation, I listen very carefully and if need be, I correct myself.
If I was flying with a 250 hour ex-cadet, I am reasonably certain I could detect most of their errors and correct them or take over if necessary. The brainspace I have now acquired after decades of flying gives me that advantage.
I cannot reasonably expect a 250 hour ex-cadet to supply the same service to me. And that is the problem.
These pilots have not acquired the psuedo-sixth sense that experience imbues in a pilot. The ability to project ahead and foresee possible problems. The ability to critically analyse the performance of the person they are flying with and be on guard for errors. They have also not earned my respect for their opinions on anything to do with flying.
We all should recognise all the implications of that last sentence.
History is littered with accidents caused by the failure of a suborninate pilot to correct the error of more experienced one.
The statistics will never reveal the accidents averted when suborninate pilots, experienced and sure of their ground, corrected the error of the more senior pilot, and the flight landed safely.
A first officer on a modern jet is the safety pilot of the entire airline operation.
They are the last slice of swiss cheese. When the holes on all the other slices have lined up, including the one where the captain is having a sub-par day, then the absolute final bulwark against an accident is the person wearing three stripes.
Therefore they cannot be learners
If you do not understand that Mr Buchanan, then for the sake of the safety record of the Qantas Group, resign your post and let someone into your job who does.
A two person airline crew, like as the majority of the Jetstar and QF flights that are flying right now requires both pilots to act as a filter for the potential human errors of ATC, loaders, engineers, other pilots but most critically... each other.
Having four bars on my shoulders does not indemnify me from gross human error. As a QF captain I am spoiled by the quality of the first officers I fly with. I respect their opinions because that respect has been earned by virtue of the many thousands of hours flying under all conditions that they have accumulated.
So when one of them expresses concern over some aspect of my operation, I listen very carefully and if need be, I correct myself.
If I was flying with a 250 hour ex-cadet, I am reasonably certain I could detect most of their errors and correct them or take over if necessary. The brainspace I have now acquired after decades of flying gives me that advantage.
I cannot reasonably expect a 250 hour ex-cadet to supply the same service to me. And that is the problem.
These pilots have not acquired the psuedo-sixth sense that experience imbues in a pilot. The ability to project ahead and foresee possible problems. The ability to critically analyse the performance of the person they are flying with and be on guard for errors. They have also not earned my respect for their opinions on anything to do with flying.
We all should recognise all the implications of that last sentence.
History is littered with accidents caused by the failure of a suborninate pilot to correct the error of more experienced one.
The statistics will never reveal the accidents averted when suborninate pilots, experienced and sure of their ground, corrected the error of the more senior pilot, and the flight landed safely.
A first officer on a modern jet is the safety pilot of the entire airline operation.
They are the last slice of swiss cheese. When the holes on all the other slices have lined up, including the one where the captain is having a sub-par day, then the absolute final bulwark against an accident is the person wearing three stripes.
Therefore they cannot be learners
If you do not understand that Mr Buchanan, then for the sake of the safety record of the Qantas Group, resign your post and let someone into your job who does.
Kaptain Kremin you are spot on.
An FO needs a few years of real-world experience in an aviation environment to create a learned authentic mental model of the real world, with all it's traps. The RPT system is not the place to learn this from scratch.
An FO needs a few years of real-world experience in an aviation environment to create a learned authentic mental model of the real world, with all it's traps. The RPT system is not the place to learn this from scratch.
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Great post.
How many accidents do you hear about when the FO didn't speak up? Plenty.
I guess they are the auditors of the flight. Not in command but making sure the commander has got it right. As you say the ultimate filter.
When the **** hits the fan the FO can make or break the operation.
This argument is ultimately one for the neuroscientists of the world. They will explain in simple terms how experience effects one's ability to process information. I saw a documentary once on it, fascinating stuff.
How many accidents do you hear about when the FO didn't speak up? Plenty.
I guess they are the auditors of the flight. Not in command but making sure the commander has got it right. As you say the ultimate filter.
When the **** hits the fan the FO can make or break the operation.
This argument is ultimately one for the neuroscientists of the world. They will explain in simple terms how experience effects one's ability to process information. I saw a documentary once on it, fascinating stuff.
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Kremin, most eloquent. Could I sum up your post as posing the question:
"A Captain can take over from a cadet, but can a cadet take over from a Captain?"
"A Captain can take over from a cadet, but can a cadet take over from a Captain?"
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Kremin, most eloquent. Could I sum up your post as posing the question:
"A Captain can take over from a cadet, but can a cadet take over from a Captain?"
"A Captain can take over from a cadet, but can a cadet take over from a Captain?"
Anyone notice a change in attitude (not on the PFD, either) in the flightdeck when flying with some of the new breed of cadet? Usually around the 1,000 to 1,500 hour mark.