Merged: Senate Inquiry
How can "Cadets" and "Direct Entry" Pilots be on the same seniority list ?.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
McGrath:
Cadet A starts with 200 hours.
DE B starts with 3,000 hours and previous turbine above 5700 command.
Which one will sooner be ready for a window seat or a command in the regionals ?. Most recent cadets have not gone to mainline/international.
Not all new starts come in as SO's on the 400/380.
Cadet A starts with 200 hours.
DE B starts with 3,000 hours and previous turbine above 5700 command.
Which one will sooner be ready for a window seat or a command in the regionals ?. Most recent cadets have not gone to mainline/international.
Not all new starts come in as SO's on the 400/380.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: dubai
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
question for the senators,
a certain airline in the fragrant harbour was having an industrial dispute and was about to unfairly dismiss 49 of its pilots, you are a management pilot in the room and you know what they are doing is both illegal and unethical, yet you assist in the process of putting a red line through 49 names. does he ;
A. resign from mangement and go public
B. assist the pilots union to defend the unfair dismissal
C. appear in court on behalf of the 49 pilots
D. become the chief at CASA
a certain airline in the fragrant harbour was having an industrial dispute and was about to unfairly dismiss 49 of its pilots, you are a management pilot in the room and you know what they are doing is both illegal and unethical, yet you assist in the process of putting a red line through 49 names. does he ;
A. resign from mangement and go public
B. assist the pilots union to defend the unfair dismissal
C. appear in court on behalf of the 49 pilots
D. become the chief at CASA
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was interested in what plovett had to say a out Ryanair and their cadet scheme, if I'm not mistaken hasn't easy jet also recruited a large amount of cadets with around 200 hours as well, and lastly have similar issues been raised in Europe regarding the safety of lower houred pilots?
Guest
Posts: n/a
"Re the CASA audit:
Jetstar is correct that the 12 observations are merely that and do not require action or compliance. HOWEVER, as all good managers know 9or should know) This audit's observation will very likely be a strong focus for the next audit, and lack of action or response can very quickly trigger RCAs. The May audit, if it happens, should be interesting."
Rumour has it that J* safety team includes ex CASA staff including the former manager of the Melbourne office.
Jetstar is correct that the 12 observations are merely that and do not require action or compliance. HOWEVER, as all good managers know 9or should know) This audit's observation will very likely be a strong focus for the next audit, and lack of action or response can very quickly trigger RCAs. The May audit, if it happens, should be interesting."
Rumour has it that J* safety team includes ex CASA staff including the former manager of the Melbourne office.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Kelpie another little job for your incisive mind.
Having worked (briefly) in a regulatory body (not airline related) I suggest that it may also be interesting to look at how the draft reports evolved from version to version.
That may give the Senators an interesting perspective on the events as they progressed from first report to the final and also the time between the various versions.
Good luck.
Having worked (briefly) in a regulatory body (not airline related) I suggest that it may also be interesting to look at how the draft reports evolved from version to version.
That may give the Senators an interesting perspective on the events as they progressed from first report to the final and also the time between the various versions.
Good luck.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 767
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rodchucker
The Senators are already onto this as I understand. They are particularly interested in the CASA guys who have signed off CAO 48 exemptions, changes to CC numbers on A321, reduction of CC training and changed the cadet approval and where they are in the industry now!!
In terms of the watering down of reports I think Senator X, a lawyer by profession has a handle on this.
McCormick should be a worried man now. So should Mr Dolan for that matter!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
The Senators are already onto this as I understand. They are particularly interested in the CASA guys who have signed off CAO 48 exemptions, changes to CC numbers on A321, reduction of CC training and changed the cadet approval and where they are in the industry now!!
In terms of the watering down of reports I think Senator X, a lawyer by profession has a handle on this.
McCormick should be a worried man now. So should Mr Dolan for that matter!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
McGrath50 that's another issue with cadet pilots with no experience being in a place where they shouldn't be in the first place! Seniority only works to a point, a DE with more hours should get further sooner (I'd hope!) but I know I'd be annoyed if a cadet was bumped up ahead of me after working so hard to get into a jet and not having thousands of dollars to buy my way in.
There will be a breeding of pilots who will not have any command time with cadet programs. What happens when all the captains retire? It's a big issue for the future to consider. Sure 'filling the right hand seat' works in the short term.
Consider also, a 200 hour pilot is in the RHS of a jet. The captain becomes incapacitated. All of a sudden a pilot with no command time is in command of a multi million dollar aircraft with hundreds of lives on board.
As for some people coming out with 'GA creates bad habits'. If you allow it yes they can creep in. However, airline SOPs are concrete and a checky will belt any bad habits out of you.
There will be a breeding of pilots who will not have any command time with cadet programs. What happens when all the captains retire? It's a big issue for the future to consider. Sure 'filling the right hand seat' works in the short term.
Consider also, a 200 hour pilot is in the RHS of a jet. The captain becomes incapacitated. All of a sudden a pilot with no command time is in command of a multi million dollar aircraft with hundreds of lives on board.
As for some people coming out with 'GA creates bad habits'. If you allow it yes they can creep in. However, airline SOPs are concrete and a checky will belt any bad habits out of you.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rodchucker:
that would be interesting - but even more significant would be the briefings prepared by CASA and AirServices for their Minister.......
Not for a second would I believe that the Minister (or his COS) were not regularly briefed and I would tend to think that the order of play from the Minister's Fortress is to call for heads to be kept low .....especially as this Committee is now essentially traversing all aspects of airline safety.
One of the big threats to the great work being done by the Senators though is that ultimately part of the bucket will no doubt be tipped on the dangers of Ministerial delegations of power. Neither side will have an appetite for that call -
AT
Speaking of flying and pollies:
Have heard another whisper that there's more frustration with the VIP fleet breakdowns similar to the leaked email from the RAAF a month or so ago. - Source says that the 737's while sitting in the hangar have been used "from time to time" as a "client supplied spare parts resource" for other RPT aircraft that have gone US.........anyone else aware of this??
that would be interesting - but even more significant would be the briefings prepared by CASA and AirServices for their Minister.......
Not for a second would I believe that the Minister (or his COS) were not regularly briefed and I would tend to think that the order of play from the Minister's Fortress is to call for heads to be kept low .....especially as this Committee is now essentially traversing all aspects of airline safety.
One of the big threats to the great work being done by the Senators though is that ultimately part of the bucket will no doubt be tipped on the dangers of Ministerial delegations of power. Neither side will have an appetite for that call -
AT
Speaking of flying and pollies:
Have heard another whisper that there's more frustration with the VIP fleet breakdowns similar to the leaked email from the RAAF a month or so ago. - Source says that the 737's while sitting in the hangar have been used "from time to time" as a "client supplied spare parts resource" for other RPT aircraft that have gone US.........anyone else aware of this??
They (SOPs) can't tell you exactly what to do in an emergency when you're required to think outside the square.
Of course we all love to throw up the QF 380 incident but the reality is that represents an almost unmeasureable percentage of flights that took place in that year alone. Clearly pretty important if that happened to be the flight you were travelling on!
Listen to what the crew did. They followed checklists, did some handling checks etc. Most of which is prescribed in emergency checklists or manuals.
Your statement may be true to a point about day to day airline operations but the reality is when the sh#t hits the fan management are the first to pat each other on the back because the experience of the crew have saved the day and their KPI driven bonus has been saved.
Icarus, we still have high capacity RPT flying into non-towered aerodromes. The sh!t I saw today in the circuit from VFR-on-top traffic circuit entry vs high capacity RPT would make your hair stand on end.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Aus
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SW3,
short, blunt, but to the point.
I agree with what you are saying and at Rex seniority is dictated by the hours you have on start date, so a direct entry will be above a cadet on the same ground school but below other pilots (direct and cadet) that started on ground schools before them.
I don't understand why it is necessary here in Australia to start up cadet programmes with all the guys and girls slugging it out in G.A. (probably been said once or twice before on pprune)
no one
short, blunt, but to the point.
I agree with what you are saying and at Rex seniority is dictated by the hours you have on start date, so a direct entry will be above a cadet on the same ground school but below other pilots (direct and cadet) that started on ground schools before them.
I don't understand why it is necessary here in Australia to start up cadet programmes with all the guys and girls slugging it out in G.A. (probably been said once or twice before on pprune)
no one
The crew do their job by following procedures. There is no room for free thinking here
I know of at least one occasion when a particular heating system stayed on when it should have turned off. Nothing in the QRH, Capt. decides to pull the CB contrary to the company manual and is told he is not allowed to by the Junior FO. Eventually the Capt. overrides the FO and has the CB pulled. Shortly after the QRH was amend to include pulling the CB for this event.
However a busy clusterfeck of a circuit area does not mean lots of decisions to be made. Mostly it is applicaton of logic to keep the aluminium apart
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Icarus, the QRH guides on and provides checklists for emergencies. However it is nowhere near 99% of the decision to be made!
An engine fails .. Complete QRH.... What next??? The QRH does not tell you where to land. It does not tell you how much fuel you have. It does not tell you how heavy the aeroplane is, what weather and icing there is, terrain, destination runway length, instrument approaches, engineering support, passenger handling, dealing with cabin crew, notifying ATC. The list goes on. And this is where the experience kicks in! Prioritising and managing..
Procedures are there to be followed, pilots are there to manage the procedures and safety. If you need a book to 99% fly an aeroplane you're in the wrong job. Otherwise we would have been engineered out by now. Every flight is different, and not every issue that could arise in flight has happened yet. What happens when there is no checklist? And multiple failures. Where do we start??
Geez wouldn't our jobs be easier if we didn't have to make decisions, some of which under pressure and time constraints.
An engine fails .. Complete QRH.... What next??? The QRH does not tell you where to land. It does not tell you how much fuel you have. It does not tell you how heavy the aeroplane is, what weather and icing there is, terrain, destination runway length, instrument approaches, engineering support, passenger handling, dealing with cabin crew, notifying ATC. The list goes on. And this is where the experience kicks in! Prioritising and managing..
Procedures are there to be followed, pilots are there to manage the procedures and safety. If you need a book to 99% fly an aeroplane you're in the wrong job. Otherwise we would have been engineered out by now. Every flight is different, and not every issue that could arise in flight has happened yet. What happens when there is no checklist? And multiple failures. Where do we start??
Geez wouldn't our jobs be easier if we didn't have to make decisions, some of which under pressure and time constraints.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Icarus2001, are you actually a pilot?
So, all the thinking has been done for you eh?
That would be why a new pilot on a particular type performs exactly the same in a flight assessment as a pilot with thousands of hours on type.
No, gee, wonder why? Maybe becuase one guy can make better decisions for some bizzare reason.
Probably one of the dumbest posts ever on pprune.
tsalta
So, all the thinking has been done for you eh?
That would be why a new pilot on a particular type performs exactly the same in a flight assessment as a pilot with thousands of hours on type.
No, gee, wonder why? Maybe becuase one guy can make better decisions for some bizzare reason.
Probably one of the dumbest posts ever on pprune.
tsalta
Latest Ops bulletin amendment:
Henceforth the CRM acronym GRADE will be referred to as GRAE.
Decision making should not be attempted at any time when operating to Standard Operations Procedures.
In future all decisions will be made by the Decision Integration Centre as the DIC heads of staff will be in possession of all relevant information. It should be noted that despite all decisions being beyond the comprehension of line operating crew, the PIC will still be responsible for the consequences of any decision made.
This will be practised to proficiency in the next Simulator planned for each crewmember.
Capt. Buck Stops-withyou
Chief Pilot.
Henceforth the CRM acronym GRADE will be referred to as GRAE.
Decision making should not be attempted at any time when operating to Standard Operations Procedures.
In future all decisions will be made by the Decision Integration Centre as the DIC heads of staff will be in possession of all relevant information. It should be noted that despite all decisions being beyond the comprehension of line operating crew, the PIC will still be responsible for the consequences of any decision made.
This will be practised to proficiency in the next Simulator planned for each crewmember.
Capt. Buck Stops-withyou
Chief Pilot.
Definitely nothing in the 380 checklist about conducting handling checks following an engine failure. Nothing in the 767/747 or 737 manuals either. Just good ol fashioned airmanship. Not prescribed but a great idea.
Also the crew on the 32 had to stop many times during the ECAMs and discuss if the actually wanted to follow what the ECAM was telling them to do. In most cases they followed in some of the others they didn't. They had an obvious fuel leak yet the fuel leak ECAM never came up!
I come from a cadet background and believe given proper training and importantly time, I think they are a one of many avenues into flying. As I said earlier in this forum I know I wasn't ready to go into the RHS of a jet after my 250 hours of training. Keg who was also a cadet has said the same. Could have I done it and succeeded, I like to think so, was I adequately prepared to deal with line ops. Not at all. Would I have been a liability in RHS. No doubt. I knew the systems and procedures, yet the practicalities of flying a jet where foreign for quite some time and I was sitting in the back watching others do it. I had little idea when first starting of radar interpretation (I had not encountered a lot of WX during training) amongst many other things important to line ops that I've mentioned earlier.
I said it earlier but will repeat, book knowledge is different to practical application. I'm sure most of my fellow classmates and other cadets would agree.
Maybe the senators should call all ex cadets to their enquiry and ask them how ready they were at the end of their course to go into the right seat.
Also the crew on the 32 had to stop many times during the ECAMs and discuss if the actually wanted to follow what the ECAM was telling them to do. In most cases they followed in some of the others they didn't. They had an obvious fuel leak yet the fuel leak ECAM never came up!
I come from a cadet background and believe given proper training and importantly time, I think they are a one of many avenues into flying. As I said earlier in this forum I know I wasn't ready to go into the RHS of a jet after my 250 hours of training. Keg who was also a cadet has said the same. Could have I done it and succeeded, I like to think so, was I adequately prepared to deal with line ops. Not at all. Would I have been a liability in RHS. No doubt. I knew the systems and procedures, yet the practicalities of flying a jet where foreign for quite some time and I was sitting in the back watching others do it. I had little idea when first starting of radar interpretation (I had not encountered a lot of WX during training) amongst many other things important to line ops that I've mentioned earlier.
I said it earlier but will repeat, book knowledge is different to practical application. I'm sure most of my fellow classmates and other cadets would agree.
Maybe the senators should call all ex cadets to their enquiry and ask them how ready they were at the end of their course to go into the right seat.
Last edited by Capt_SNAFU; 20th Mar 2011 at 06:40.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fantasy Isthmus
Age: 51
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interestingly, Sully's water landing might not have had such a happy outcome if he hadn't done one thing. He switched on the APU when it was clear they were about to lose both engines for good. He knew how dependent the A320 systems are in having a steady source of electrical power, the QRH was silent on the matter of the APU, but recommended the crew keep attempting to restart the engines.
