Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Merged: Senate Inquiry

Old 1st Aug 2014, 01:57
  #2081 (permalink)  
 
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This is very close to a conspiracy theory, Creampuff and as such I am loathe to subscribe to it.
I’m comforted by the fact that the majority of the Senate Committee subscribe to the same theory, which isn’t a conspiracy theory. But I see you’ve learned Politics 102: Discredit by innuendo. Well done.

As to the standards to be applied to aerial ambulance operations, it’s simply one example of the broader classifications of operations quagmire that CASA is not, and never will be, competent to fix.

Classification of operations is, unavoidably, a balance between risk, cost and availability of service. Classification of operations is therefore a quintessentially political decision. CASA is not competent to decide where that balance is to be set, and governments don’t want to take the responsibility. That’s why the regulatory quagmire has continued to be a stinking mess for decades.
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 03:29
  #2082 (permalink)  
 
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People in Victoria may like to know such accreditation appears worthless in regard to aerial medevac insurance for accident victims. If CAsA are not up to regulate properly and competently, then I'm sure The Guardian or The Age would do their usual take on journalistic excellence to safeguard the population if it gave them a shot at an NLP Transport Minister.


Third party insurance should be a given for all pax, not a point of legal debate depending on the political or financial merit of The now apparent Nominal Defendant/ and whether he/she is subject to the first or second accident of the day when claiming compensation. Is he covered for the car crash, but not the plane crash? Hang on... did he already had that head injury!


The Minister for Finance should be forced to pay an Act of Grace payment to those who continue to suffer from both hurt and without compensation from the ditching and recoup that from the CAsA trough or bonuses to report writers. There is prima faci evidence of at least a perceived miscarriage of justice. "The "buck" stops somewhere.


"safe skies for everybody" ?


If they were safe, we wouldn't need insurance. (for what that's worth).

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 1st Aug 2014 at 03:31. Reason: I feel a new thread coming on.
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 12:48
  #2083 (permalink)  
 
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IN Fairyland...

Alas, in Cantberra, Dept of Transport and Infrastructure and CAsA the "buck" actually stops nowhere. It just gets passed on

Its ring a ring a rosie...and it all falls down because no-one is responsible and no one is accountable.
And no minister has the teeth. balls or interest in righting the wrongs.

Street posters in Sydney. More, more! Go you good things.!!!

Empty skies are safe skies.
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 21:36
  #2084 (permalink)  
 
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. . . ... now "the lot of you" sounds too inclusive

shame is such a big concept . . . .. .

you could have concluded your excellent

checklist of crucial criteria with the type of quote or

homily you often have so ready to hand . .

like a quote from Bruce Dawe's "After you Gary Cooper" . .

(a poem that speaks of the gun-slinger mentality memorably...

that's why it escapes me for the moment . . . cannot

even 'clear leather')


. . . something pointed . . . something like a caution

. . . something like telling off the bird who will crap in his own nest

Last edited by Fantome; 1st Aug 2014 at 23:01.
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 21:57
  #2085 (permalink)  
 
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One of the many, many flaws in your post #2169, No Hoper, is that there are patent errors in the transcript of the radio transmissions. What other errors aren't patently obvious? The CVR might help to answer that. But ATSB, and others, don't want to find out, because the answers could be very inconvenient.

You assume the statements in the report to be fact. They are not fact. They are merely and mostly a cherry-picked, paraphrased, mish-mash of mostly second and third-hand hearsay - and known mistakes in transcription and transmissions - supporting the foregone conclusion. One of the patently obvious safety issues that isn't analysed is that of the performance of the life vests.

It's a sick joke.
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 22:45
  #2086 (permalink)  
 
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I would have to dispute the claim that matters have progressed. Certainly lots has happened as listed in Kharon's post but what progress has been made? The illusion of progress is certainly occurring. I'm sure Kharon would have that quote to hand by the Greek General from 400BC observing that the more things changed the less progress was occurring. The fact that Dolan has been given another 2 years at the ATSB is proof that serious progress is not being contemplated.

Lots of choices for open sensible discussion.
Lets hope so.
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 23:30
  #2087 (permalink)  
 
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LL "Lets hope so.
Indeed Lefty, indeed; there's as good an example right above this post – progress v lack of. Good points. It's all down to Truss and that will depend on what his minders advise. One thing is for sure though, if we carry on like a bunch of school kids – the dreaded "CLICK" will occur and the opposition will have won. This site may only be a small thorn in the arse of the elephant but it's all the IOS have. Now brother Creampuff was purpose built for debate, your own comments often abrasive, pointed and argumentative – but non the less welcome within the spirit and intent of (dare I say it) robust debate between professionals, it is to be expected.

I have no quarrel with another having a point of view and expressing it at strongly as possible; but, the gutter tactics of bullies, cowards and trolls serve no purpose; and can only illicit one response. Play the man – Red card; play the ball – a Try (sometimes – gods and referee willing, weather permitting).

Toot toot.
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Old 2nd Aug 2014, 05:07
  #2088 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
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Wings clipped, stuck in sticky web.

Dear Pp's,

I am grateful for so much support, still after nearly half a decade.
Engaging each times with the matter has it's costs to my health.
I am very strong and want to pursue the wrong doings with passion for the safety, protection and fairness for others that may be unfortunate enough to be seized in a sticky web, such as I am.
I need to take a break. So insulting. I have to fight for justice and fairness. It is too difficult to fathom when no protection, no law, the report etc. My own beloved Australia. My leaders doing this for protection measurements. Pure cruelty. No safety learning outcome. Ignorant.

I will continue to battle, but I can not allow this to blanket me every day at this point in time.

I will continue to watch, if, there is any progress.

Need to recharge, physically and psychologically. Then I'll be back to chat to great people. Thank you Pp.

Safe skies,
Stay true,
Ziggy
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Old 2nd Aug 2014, 06:27
  #2089 (permalink)  
 
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Zigs,


never let the bastards grind you down.


There are many who will carry the cudgel while you recharge.
Take very good care of yourself.
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Old 2nd Aug 2014, 22:10
  #2090 (permalink)  
 
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What's on the menu.

What's on the menu.

Is next week is the start of the long goodbye? We can, for starters (from Sarcs's long list) redefine Haemorrhoids as piles of bleeding paper-work, stacked up on the miniscule's desk. It must be a foot high. This could be reduced by releasing certain items of interest for consumption.

L'Apéritif. perhaps the industry responses to the WLR. I cannot see, apart from practical (undisclosed) reasons, why these have not been published. Yep, a tasty way to start.

L'Entrée Perhaps a minuscule nibble around the edges of whether Truss is going to enforce the WLR salad or just let it droop and slide off the edge of the table.

Le Plat Principal. The Senate MoP surprise meal deal; - will it be meat and potatoes, or some mushy confection covered with a thin, bitter sauce? The chef's have been very coy about this dish, we must hope it's not served too cold due to delayed service.

Le Fromage. Pel Air cheese; this has matured and is now very ripe, to the point where the smell from the kitchen is almost palpable; the crackers have been a long while in the oven and ready to serve. This favourite of the fabled insurance elephant will not be palatable if delayed much longer. Perhaps the Canadian chef can be persuaded to serve it up sooner, rather than later.

Le Dessert. DAS pudding; not done properly, this can be either bitter or incredibly bland; we have had both at this restaurant. Perhaps the new chef from the Brindabella mountains can coax out the finer flavours from this potentially disastrous dish.

Le Café. medevac biscuits and espresso, although delicious, the biscuits are very fragile, prone to disintegrate especially when exposed to moisture, 'dunking' is a frowned upon practice for the true connoisseur. The bitter aftertaste of the coffee more than offsets the sweetness found in a well made confection.

Le Digestif. Machiavellian nuts, Beaker balls, ICC Ginger curls, chocolate wabbit ears; or, cigar butts and an expensive Montreal brandy. Help yourself.

Toot toot –

A Sunday twiddle; sponsored by the IOS Chapter for "Them wot wotches MKR". A non approved, not aligned bunch of miscreants if ever there was one.

"Skies safe - anybody?"

Last edited by Kharon; 2nd Aug 2014 at 22:12. Reason: Let them eat cake is not a good call..
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Old 2nd Aug 2014, 22:24
  #2091 (permalink)  
 
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Kharon,

mate, you forgot that old menu favorite

"The catch of the day"

I inquired of the waiter who replied

"Anyone who orders the fish"

and from the state of the industry, have we been served up some crook prawns???
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Old 2nd Aug 2014, 22:37
  #2092 (permalink)  
 
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Lots of choices for open sensible discussion.
Too much to hope for, a bit like a truce in Gaza.
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Old 2nd Aug 2014, 23:38
  #2093 (permalink)  
 
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Progress so far.

Despite the findings and recommendations of the AAI Report and ASRR Panel and calls from a substantial segment of the aviation industry:

- Mr Dolan has been reappointed
- NGA's OBRs haven't been recovered
- The ATSB's report on the ditching remains the formal position of the ATSB on the accident
- Every CASA executive is in the same position
- CASA Board positions haven't been spilled
- Jeff Boyd has been appointed to one of the two new positions on the CASA Board
- The Regulatory Reform Program is about to take another turn in direction, justifying another decade of expensive paper shuffling.

Did I miss anything?

I realise some people are waiting, with bated breath (in PPRuNe-speak: baited breathe) for the announcement of the new CASA DAS, but even a lot of people in industry have finally worked out that the DAS will never be the Messiah but, instead, just another naughty boy or girl.

If there were six like Jeff Boyd on the Board, I might see the point of the Board. But there aren't, so I don't.

So once the next naughty boy or girl is appointed as DAS and the remaining new position on the Board is filled, it's effectively business as has been usual for the last couple of decades.

What's the IOS's Plan B?
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 00:10
  #2094 (permalink)  
 
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Creampuff,

All I can say, is do you know somewhere I can buy some goats to herd?
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 04:03
  #2095 (permalink)  
 
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Clarise, the lambs crying is getting louder.

So once the next naughty boy or girl is appointed as DAS and the remaining new position on the Board is filled, it's effectively business as has been usual for the last couple of decades.
Couldn't agree more......now I have been 'hoping' (not No Hoper) deep down inside that change may occur. Why not? It doesn't cost anything to dream! But the reality is that unless a top to tail cleanup is done we unfortunately will be done. Boyd's appointment is a tease. Skulls demise is a tease. The reappointment of Pumpkin Head and Beaker tells an alarming tale, signals a red flag, alludes to more tautological nonsense by government and it's subordinates.
Unless somebody very very special can click a finger and magically turn Australian politics, culture and it's subordinate departments into generative non-pathological organisations, we are screwed.

Kharon, nice menu my tendentious friend. However I didn't see any robust sized bottles of 'Chateau Le Pineapple' on the menu? Could we please order 3 cases? Cheers.

Last edited by 004wercras; 3rd Aug 2014 at 04:06. Reason: Open day on the Styx River Houseboat. Not many willing attendees.
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 08:59
  #2096 (permalink)  
 
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On the reappointment of Beaker the following appears apt:

“Being poor is a mere trifle. It is being known to be poor that is the sting.” Jerome K. Jerome
Given the public humiliation so far - and there is more to come - how does he continue to look in the mirror and then go to work each morning?
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 09:13
  #2097 (permalink)  
 
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Unless somebody very very special can click a finger and magically turn Australian politics, culture and it's subordinate departments into generative non-pathological organisations, we are screwed.

if we meet on the barricades we shall die on the barricades


baulked every time tried to post the link to Tracy Chapman and 'Talkin Bout a Revolution

Last edited by FAR CU; 3rd Aug 2014 at 09:26.
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 12:17
  #2098 (permalink)  
 
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So it looks like Plan B is for some form of anarchical insurrection by the IOS! The Senate Inquiry was held that long ago that babies born at the time are now entering kindergarten. All through the thread people have hung out for the next thing that will bring immediate and lasting change to the way aviation is administered and regulated in this country. The Senate inquiry, the next Senate inquiry into Pel Air, the change of government, the Truss report, the AFP investigation, the Privileges committee etc etc. Each time there has been a resounding chorus of “Its Time”.

I will give the credit to Creampuff but he forecast many years ago that none of the above was going to move the industry an inch closer to genuine reform mainly because both main political parties did not see aviation reform as being a vote catcher or game changer. They liked their Public Servants to run interference for them and supported them by extensions to their appointments when the time came. You might cite McCormick as an example of a scalp but he was never a professional bureaucrat so he was always going to be the fall guy. At least he had once upon a time slipped the surly bonds but what why would some aviation experience save him from getting the boot from an aviation portfolio? Dolan has zero aviation experience and failed badly at Senate estimates and inquiries yet continues to be the Commissioner at the ATSB.

What is the common denominator in all this? One word- Complacency. There have been no Cat 1 accidents in this country so from the politicians and publics point of view all must be well. CASA convince the government of the day, whether red or blue, that if radical change is made then an accident will be the inevitable result. That is why the Senate reports get ignored, that is why the government will conduct an extensive review and ultimately not change anything.

So what will change things? To make the decision makers non-complacent, Simples! One way is through the sheer hard yards of lobbying by various professional and industry organisations. They are the bodies that have the access, the credibility and the data that can influence the decision makers. Organisations like the RAA, AIPA the Ag association etc. These are the people that get treated seriously but it takes an awful lot of effort and an awful lot of time. Think of it in similar terms to the technological advances in aviation between the two World Wars.
So what is the equivalent of WW2?
That is the terrible reality of how aviation advances- fatal accidents. Not just any accidents as Lockhart River proved but a shiny jet with a recognisable brand name on the tail fin. Close calls like Mildura are obviously not enough to get rid of political and public complacency. I doubt that the recent near hit at MCY will be enough. Only pictures on the TV of the scale of MH17 will do it.

It is certainly a cynical viewpoint but cynicism comes through having seen it all before and not witnessing change. As an example the current hours requirements in the U.S. only come about because of the Colgan crash. Fulltime tracking of passenger aircraft will only occur due to MH370. The risk assessment of air routes over war zones will have more conservative assumptions included because of MH17. The importance of pilots being able to actually manipulate an aircraft in an emergency is only given prominence because of AF447 and Asiana 214. All these issues were present for many years before an accident occurred and there were plenty of warnings.

Complacency, get rid of that and you get rid of the people running CASA and the ATSB. I know how it won’t be achieved but that just gets people upset because they think they have found the Holy Gourd through a keyboard.
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 13:15
  #2099 (permalink)  
 
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Agree with LL that it will take something major to shake the government and bureaucrats out of their complacency.

A major crash would certainly do it, but no one wants that.

Action by the FAA (i.e. downgrading Australia to tier 2) would certainly do it. I half expected this to happen - it was being contemplated in 2009, and very little of the PelAir debacle since 2009 could have inspired any confidence.

I don't understand the recent comments about lack of insurance for survivors, Could someone here enlighten me?
If this is the case, then a decision by insurers and other customers not to use Australian registered air ambulances (until such time as this issue is addressed) would cause pain. Pain for Australian operators. Pain for Australians overseas. Pain for people from other countries needing air ambulance services in this region - imagine if the US or Europe recommended that their citizens not be transported by an Australian registered air ambulance.
I suspect this would get this particular loophole (if it exists) fixed. Of course I understand you are talking about a much bigger picture, but at least it would be a start.
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 19:07
  #2100 (permalink)  
 
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So what will change things? To make the decision makers non-complacent, Simples! One way is through the sheer hard yards of lobbying by various professional and industry organisations. They are the bodies that have the access, the credibility and the data that can influence the decision makers. Organisations like the RAA, AIPA the Ag association etc.
No mention of AOPA???
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