Nick Xenophon - The most important person in the future of Australian Aviation
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Aviation employers don’t care how good a pilot is. As long as the pilot meets insurance requirements and can do the job, all that matters is how much that pilot costs. In my experience, many employers would rather hire a cheap, entry level pilot than a seasoned professional who costs more. They don’t see the benefit of the experience. They’re gambling, of course, on the equipment and circumstances of flight — when something goes wrong, will the entry level pilot have the experience and knowledge to bring the aircraft and passengers back safely?
In the airline industry, pilots are locked into their employers for seniority. If they leave one airline, they lose all seniority and start at the bottom at their new employer. This prevents experienced pilots from looking for better jobs. It stagnates the employee pool. And although Captain Sullenberger didn’t mention this, it prevents good ideas from one airline from migrating to another.
Captain Sullenberger does discuss how many airline employees have simply stopped caring about anything other than what’s in their job description. As budget cuts reduce non-essential staff, customer service suffers. Captain Sullenberger talks about his personal experiences going the “extra mile” to help passengers who can’t get the help they need from other airline employees. He talks about how most airline employees are simply tired of doing other people’s jobs. He doesn’t blame them — he hints that they’re underpaid for what they’re supposed to do — but he does decry the system that results in this poor attitude.
He also believes that budget cuts have the potential to reduce safety. A good example of this is the emergency procedures book that his first officer needed to consult on the loss of both engines. In the past, the book had numbered tabs that made it easier to find content. The airline, in a cost-cutting measure, had stopped including the tabs, making it necessary to thumb through the book and look at individual page headings to find content. In the slightly more than three minutes the cockpit crew had to land the plane without engines, every second was valuable. Yes, this flight had a happy ending — but could other flights be lost due to cost cutting measures like this? It certainly makes you wonder.
In the airline industry, pilots are locked into their employers for seniority. If they leave one airline, they lose all seniority and start at the bottom at their new employer. This prevents experienced pilots from looking for better jobs. It stagnates the employee pool. And although Captain Sullenberger didn’t mention this, it prevents good ideas from one airline from migrating to another.
Captain Sullenberger does discuss how many airline employees have simply stopped caring about anything other than what’s in their job description. As budget cuts reduce non-essential staff, customer service suffers. Captain Sullenberger talks about his personal experiences going the “extra mile” to help passengers who can’t get the help they need from other airline employees. He talks about how most airline employees are simply tired of doing other people’s jobs. He doesn’t blame them — he hints that they’re underpaid for what they’re supposed to do — but he does decry the system that results in this poor attitude.
He also believes that budget cuts have the potential to reduce safety. A good example of this is the emergency procedures book that his first officer needed to consult on the loss of both engines. In the past, the book had numbered tabs that made it easier to find content. The airline, in a cost-cutting measure, had stopped including the tabs, making it necessary to thumb through the book and look at individual page headings to find content. In the slightly more than three minutes the cockpit crew had to land the plane without engines, every second was valuable. Yes, this flight had a happy ending — but could other flights be lost due to cost cutting measures like this? It certainly makes you wonder.
The Hon. Senator should be made aware of factors that involve airline safety issues. Seniority is one of these issues.
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Agree, if you want a seniority argument make another thread, and by the way almost all factories run on seniority too so lets stop it and just pick favourites to get the promotions! haha, your obviously junior buddy!
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Great Idea
I think its a great idea. The only way we will win this is if we get the public onside regarding safety.
Any publicity that helps the public to see that their continued cheap fares may come at the expense of deteriorating safety standards is crucial for any legislative change.
Mr Hat - Why don't you send AIPA an email, copied to Senator Xenophon, with your suggestion. In fact, Lets ALL do that.
PG
Any publicity that helps the public to see that their continued cheap fares may come at the expense of deteriorating safety standards is crucial for any legislative change.
Mr Hat - Why don't you send AIPA an email, copied to Senator Xenophon, with your suggestion. In fact, Lets ALL do that.
PG
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"Our pilot training regimen is regularly benchmarked against international standards as part of our program of continuous improvements."
And what international standards would those be?
And what international standards would those be?
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The discussion, arguments and merits of seniority have been raised many, many times and raising it again here is little more than a diversionary tactic.
Primarily it needs to be clearly understood Safety is purely the role of the Regulator.
The regulator can and will be directed, counselled or advised in this role by either the Legislative process or the accident investigator. Input may also occur from affected/interested parties such as pilots, engineers, / ATC, etc.
Whilst Airline Management may profess an intense interest in Safety their only input to this process will be when directed/asked to do so or it affects the bottom line; such input will allways be to protect or enhance this bottom line. Restrictions imposed upon their operation such as being prevented to fly into a country or passenger reaction to an airlines poor safety record are good examples re creating an airline managent interest is safety.
Seniority does ensure all get an opprtrunity in sequence to upgrade however, the final say in this process resides with the Regulator through an `approved' check & training organisation.
Seniority is about taking the control of a pilots daily life and lifestyle from airline management and putting it in the hands of the individual pilot!
It is interesting to note that though I raised the quality, ability and role of the regulator and accident investigator in an earlier post it appears no one considers the safety regulator/accident investigator role or lack of abilty to regulate the industry worthy of comment. Yet many posts suggest their major concern is operational safety?
I make one other point in that the suggestion is for government and or legislatve input, interference or control into the area of T & Cs, supposed safety and airline mangement. One would suggest from experience great care is needed in what is asked for as the last time government interfered with airline managment, T & Cs, etc, we ended up in the great mess we are in Now!
Primarily it needs to be clearly understood Safety is purely the role of the Regulator.
The regulator can and will be directed, counselled or advised in this role by either the Legislative process or the accident investigator. Input may also occur from affected/interested parties such as pilots, engineers, / ATC, etc.
Whilst Airline Management may profess an intense interest in Safety their only input to this process will be when directed/asked to do so or it affects the bottom line; such input will allways be to protect or enhance this bottom line. Restrictions imposed upon their operation such as being prevented to fly into a country or passenger reaction to an airlines poor safety record are good examples re creating an airline managent interest is safety.
Seniority does ensure all get an opprtrunity in sequence to upgrade however, the final say in this process resides with the Regulator through an `approved' check & training organisation.
Seniority is about taking the control of a pilots daily life and lifestyle from airline management and putting it in the hands of the individual pilot!
It is interesting to note that though I raised the quality, ability and role of the regulator and accident investigator in an earlier post it appears no one considers the safety regulator/accident investigator role or lack of abilty to regulate the industry worthy of comment. Yet many posts suggest their major concern is operational safety?
I make one other point in that the suggestion is for government and or legislatve input, interference or control into the area of T & Cs, supposed safety and airline mangement. One would suggest from experience great care is needed in what is asked for as the last time government interfered with airline managment, T & Cs, etc, we ended up in the great mess we are in Now!
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I had actually said my peace until Dark Knight made the above post.
This is ill-considered rhetoric. The fact is that in a dynamic industry Datal Seniority means that many worthy pilots will never see a command during their careers. Many will work for a company for years which then goes bust or is absorbed only to join a company with DS and then they start from scratch, the industry effectively losing the full benefit of their experience. Consider the 10 year FOs in Canada (Canadian/Air Canada merger) who were absorbed by another company and then put at the bottom of the Seniority list. Of what use was their experience when Junior SOs became senior to them? I know of one Check Captain who suddenly became junior to his son. I correspond with an FO who is still not a captain years later.
Example: the many ex AN check captains who joined QF as SOs. Where are they now? FOs on intermediate types, that's where. Most will never hold a command again- due to seniority. At least the industry and the younger FOs at JQ could benefit from the experience and mentorship provided by the"Blue Shirts", as some have so demeaningly called them.
I have already explained at length that DS results in promotion becoming a box ticking exercise. The next in line, whatever their knowledge, whatever their experience, becomes the benchmark. More often than not, this will mean that the potential standard of the industry is lowered, unless by co-incidence or fluke the next datally senior is the best, most experienced and suitable person for the job. This is an industry safety issue.
Some posters have already seen the link between declining salaries and safety-If you don't see the link to how Datal Seniority lowers our T&Cs, go and speak to an Economist and get them to explain the effect of Labour Regulations, employment dynamics and wages.
Seniority does ensure all get an opprtrunity in sequence to upgrade however, the final say in this process resides with the Regulator through an `approved' check & training organisation.
Seniority is about taking the control of a pilots daily life and lifestyle from airline management and putting it in the hands of the individual pilot!
Seniority is about taking the control of a pilots daily life and lifestyle from airline management and putting it in the hands of the individual pilot!
Example: the many ex AN check captains who joined QF as SOs. Where are they now? FOs on intermediate types, that's where. Most will never hold a command again- due to seniority. At least the industry and the younger FOs at JQ could benefit from the experience and mentorship provided by the"Blue Shirts", as some have so demeaningly called them.
I have already explained at length that DS results in promotion becoming a box ticking exercise. The next in line, whatever their knowledge, whatever their experience, becomes the benchmark. More often than not, this will mean that the potential standard of the industry is lowered, unless by co-incidence or fluke the next datally senior is the best, most experienced and suitable person for the job. This is an industry safety issue.
Some posters have already seen the link between declining salaries and safety-If you don't see the link to how Datal Seniority lowers our T&Cs, go and speak to an Economist and get them to explain the effect of Labour Regulations, employment dynamics and wages.
Last edited by Anthill; 26th Sep 2010 at 07:29.
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Well Boo Frickety Hoo Mr termite Ant!
Just go to an Airline that does not have seniority then then your life will be bliss!
Theres lots of contracts around?
Or do I sense a sour grape?
haha!
Pathetic!
Meanwhile while you whinge I succeed! HAHA!
Oh life is bliss!
Just go to an Airline that does not have seniority then then your life will be bliss!
Theres lots of contracts around?
Or do I sense a sour grape?
haha!
Pathetic!
Meanwhile while you whinge I succeed! HAHA!
Oh life is bliss!
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AoA : yeah, I recieved your insane rave of a PM.
I'm sure where ever you work (QF) has an Employee Assistance Program. Use it. Take sick leave.
You have no business in an aeroplane.
I'm sure where ever you work (QF) has an Employee Assistance Program. Use it. Take sick leave.
You have no business in an aeroplane.
Last edited by Anthill; 26th Sep 2010 at 10:57.
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I have already explained at length that DS results in promotion becoming a box ticking exercise. The next in line, whatever their knowledge, whatever their experience, becomes the benchmark. More often than not, this will mean that the potential standard of the industry is lowered, unless by co-incidence or fluke the next datally senior is the best, most experienced and suitable person for the job. This is an industry safety issue.
Some posters have already seen the link between declining salaries and safety-If you don't see the link to how Datal Seniority lowers our T&Cs, go and speak to an Economist and get them to explain the effect of Labour Regulations, employment dynamics and wages.
Some posters have already seen the link between declining salaries and safety-If you don't see the link to how Datal Seniority lowers our T&Cs, go and speak to an Economist and get them to explain the effect of Labour Regulations, employment dynamics and wages.
Direct entry commands destroy conditions.
In the last ten or so years, how many cashed up expats have taken up direct entry commands in various Australian airlines on conditions that were once considered a joke? Just so they could return to Australia.
By your theory of economics the employees of these airlines should be enjoying the greatest employment conditions that the world has ever seen. Their conditions should be far superior to QANTAS or Ansett who use(d) the dreaded "Datal Seniority".
Despite your obvious distaste for all those that haven't accumulated enough sick leave to avoid working in the same confines as your hyper inflated ego; The best person for the next command, wherever possible, is the FO who has devoted years to an airline, accumulating enough experience to pass the required standard. And not someone who's sick of the desert or Asian food.
If your airline fell over whilst you were considered king then too bad. Unfortunately that's the price we pay in this industry. The belief that a command enjoyed in one airline somehow equates to an entitlement to a command in any and every other airline in the world is not based on safety. Even if you did wear a blue shirt.
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Bloody Seniority debate.
Popgun, I wrote the Senator a letter when the thread started. It was long detailed and factual. No picking on Jetstar or anyone else just view of how the industry has changed and where I think it is headed.
Right now I just wish the seniority and cadet debate would be replaced with robust discussion on how to save our industry. I think Captain Sullenberger combined with the Senator is the right combination.
Does anyone have the utube link on his speech handy? I remember my hair standing on end when I watched it the first time.
Right now I just wish the seniority and cadet debate would be replaced with robust discussion on how to save our industry. I think Captain Sullenberger combined with the Senator is the right combination.
Does anyone have the utube link on his speech handy? I remember my hair standing on end when I watched it the first time.
Mr. Hat
Is this the speech you are talking about?
Capt Sullenberger's Speach at the Commonwealth Club
Is this the speech you are talking about?
Capt Sullenberger's Speach at the Commonwealth Club
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Dear oh Dear...
I won't even comment on the previous couple of posts...
Now...altering course to avoid the CB and get back on track...
That sounds like a great idea - Senator X and Capt Sully would surely be able to drag this issue front and centre so that the Mums and Dads at home (watching A Current Affair etc) and the Parliament could see that we are heading down a dangerous path unless the 2 issues (Off-shoring and 200 hour First Officers) are safely put to rest.
I haven't seen Capt S's speech. I'll go watch the youtube video now...
PG
Now...altering course to avoid the CB and get back on track...
That sounds like a great idea - Senator X and Capt Sully would surely be able to drag this issue front and centre so that the Mums and Dads at home (watching A Current Affair etc) and the Parliament could see that we are heading down a dangerous path unless the 2 issues (Off-shoring and 200 hour First Officers) are safely put to rest.
I haven't seen Capt S's speech. I'll go watch the youtube video now...
PG
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You do have to laugh at how we have f&$@ed over the kiwis for so many years, And now only after we've helped forge these conditions we often refer to them as outshoring of Aussie jobs and continual lowing of conditions when we have been the creator!! For example, when Jetconnect started, we all flooded over there and accepted and some would say established the shyte T&C's then we all came home to greener pastures and left the mess to the kiwis. Next was PAC Blue which was set up by us good ol boys then left to them. The latest is Jetstar NZ which we all took rosters out of NZ ( nice wee holiday with the sheep shaggers) then came home because we never thought setting up the shyte terms for the islander kiwis would ever affect us!!?? WTF? The biggest hypocrisy is that Jetstar NZ can't get any of their countryman to accept a command because of the shyte pay but their is a flood of our aus jetstar pilots taking leave without pay for that good ol command!!?? We are affectively and efficiently stuffing our own conditions and here it is.... Blaming the kiwis for the shyte terms and conditions! Just as long as we keep blaming the natives we'll feel better about ourselves ay! No wonder the industry is going down the toilet, unbelievable.
I once read a post on here that "kiwis would skin their own nanna with a blunt butter knife to put an Aussie out of work" jeezuz what a joke, have you blokes had a look at the Jetstar seniority list lately with all the leave without pay NZ on it?
I once read a post on here that "kiwis would skin their own nanna with a blunt butter knife to put an Aussie out of work" jeezuz what a joke, have you blokes had a look at the Jetstar seniority list lately with all the leave without pay NZ on it?
Last edited by Fruet Mich; 28th Sep 2010 at 00:04.
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Back to Xenophon..and how each of us can help!
This thread is not about blame or rearward looking vitriol. Haven't we had enough of that?
Please try and provide something constructive in your rants...perhaps you could even balance your posts with proposals of possible solutions to our dilemmas. Our industry could do with a lot more of that.
This would be a lot more welcome and motivational rather than the same negative, anger-venting, 'I-told-you-so' spiel.
I'm off to write another email to my local MP and to forward some more suggestions to the union.
Cheers to all who are willing to get off their a@#es and be positive, optimistic and constructive.
PG
Please try and provide something constructive in your rants...perhaps you could even balance your posts with proposals of possible solutions to our dilemmas. Our industry could do with a lot more of that.
This would be a lot more welcome and motivational rather than the same negative, anger-venting, 'I-told-you-so' spiel.
I'm off to write another email to my local MP and to forward some more suggestions to the union.
Cheers to all who are willing to get off their a@#es and be positive, optimistic and constructive.
PG
Last edited by Popgun; 28th Sep 2010 at 23:07. Reason: spelling
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Here here Popgun.
Would be good to see how many of the people on this thread have actually done something.
I've written to the Senator and the local MP. You?
I've written to the Senator and the local MP. You?