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relax737
Not many people seem to be paying attention to your posts. I am. And I disagree with your defeatist attitude.
I feel sorry for you having to retire with such sad experiences.
When successful, being involved in a collective campaign to improve your conditions of service is a very rewarding experience for any professional. I have been involved in some great wins over the years including pay rises of 25%.
Like you, I can retire too thanks to this great industry. But I am 40. My advice to other pilots is put up a clever fight. Don't capitulate as you suggest.
Not many people seem to be paying attention to your posts. I am. And I disagree with your defeatist attitude.
I feel sorry for you having to retire with such sad experiences.
When successful, being involved in a collective campaign to improve your conditions of service is a very rewarding experience for any professional. I have been involved in some great wins over the years including pay rises of 25%.
Like you, I can retire too thanks to this great industry. But I am 40. My advice to other pilots is put up a clever fight. Don't capitulate as you suggest.
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Gnads I totally agree with you. - relax 737 you're defeatist posts also don't recognise history.
Sir, you're a bit too young to remember the early 1950's when airlines took F/O's with less than 500 hours because there just weren't pilots around. You won't remember the hard but worthy battles that newly formed unions waged that radically improved pilots working lives - no more multiple pilots being forced to share boarding house rooms on overnights and abysmal flight-time limitation issues.
You also won't recall the early sixties when even TAA and Ansett had to set up cadet schemes and pay for training in order to fill pilot seats. You clearly have forgotten even recent history where one airline initially required interviewees to pay for sim checks etc until they too were desperate for pilots. Before the GFC my airline had to hire anybody with a heartbeat if they had a licence.
And 737, to convert your defeatest interpretation of Packers' quote - he who has the gold wins - we have the gold!
There are not enough qualified and experienced pilots globally to fill the front seats of airliners that are on order. And no, no matter how dumb a manager may be (or how thick you suggest us as pilots skulls are) he is not going to allow a $100million, $200m or $300m aircraft to sit idle when by paying a pilot an extra $50k/yr that asset would be fully utilised. You're bluntness is again incorrect. Shareholders do not allow such fiscal irresponsibility.
Now Australia has always had a surplus of pilots and many of us have been overseas. Historically there were limitations by having only 3 main airlines - all growing slowly. Now there are 4+ operators all aggressively looking at expansion. This is happening at a time when Commercial pilot licence issuing is at an all time low and the military supply has basically evaporated. Aussie pilots are also routinely looking abroad for employment when this was never the norm 10+ years ago.
Pure simple basic economics dictates that as a result we have the gold. This is Economics 101 and outweighs any perceived, drama-queen 'new order' in industrial relations. Nothing has changed since Keynes' day; Lots of demand + limited supply = higher salaries.
If we stick together and get what we want then our fortunes are set. For example, on recruitment websites, if there is an expected salary bracket, put in the Qantas 747 or A330 Captain salary as a yardstick (A$350) or whatever your overseas equivalent is (Cathay $500k). Don't just put in a low salary so you think you will be more attractive, particularly if you are not fussed about getting the job in the first place. Perhaps the more people who put in these globally realistic and higher salaries the better for everybody as recruiters are made aware of global reality.
But by far the worst, historically inaccurate and most defeatist approach to take would be the relax 737 position. Sir before you retire in apparent mysery perhaps you might want to take time to inspire those younger than you rather than trying to force them to accept what is definitely not an industrial inevitability.
Sir, you're a bit too young to remember the early 1950's when airlines took F/O's with less than 500 hours because there just weren't pilots around. You won't remember the hard but worthy battles that newly formed unions waged that radically improved pilots working lives - no more multiple pilots being forced to share boarding house rooms on overnights and abysmal flight-time limitation issues.
You also won't recall the early sixties when even TAA and Ansett had to set up cadet schemes and pay for training in order to fill pilot seats. You clearly have forgotten even recent history where one airline initially required interviewees to pay for sim checks etc until they too were desperate for pilots. Before the GFC my airline had to hire anybody with a heartbeat if they had a licence.
And 737, to convert your defeatest interpretation of Packers' quote - he who has the gold wins - we have the gold!
There are not enough qualified and experienced pilots globally to fill the front seats of airliners that are on order. And no, no matter how dumb a manager may be (or how thick you suggest us as pilots skulls are) he is not going to allow a $100million, $200m or $300m aircraft to sit idle when by paying a pilot an extra $50k/yr that asset would be fully utilised. You're bluntness is again incorrect. Shareholders do not allow such fiscal irresponsibility.
Now Australia has always had a surplus of pilots and many of us have been overseas. Historically there were limitations by having only 3 main airlines - all growing slowly. Now there are 4+ operators all aggressively looking at expansion. This is happening at a time when Commercial pilot licence issuing is at an all time low and the military supply has basically evaporated. Aussie pilots are also routinely looking abroad for employment when this was never the norm 10+ years ago.
Pure simple basic economics dictates that as a result we have the gold. This is Economics 101 and outweighs any perceived, drama-queen 'new order' in industrial relations. Nothing has changed since Keynes' day; Lots of demand + limited supply = higher salaries.
If we stick together and get what we want then our fortunes are set. For example, on recruitment websites, if there is an expected salary bracket, put in the Qantas 747 or A330 Captain salary as a yardstick (A$350) or whatever your overseas equivalent is (Cathay $500k). Don't just put in a low salary so you think you will be more attractive, particularly if you are not fussed about getting the job in the first place. Perhaps the more people who put in these globally realistic and higher salaries the better for everybody as recruiters are made aware of global reality.
But by far the worst, historically inaccurate and most defeatist approach to take would be the relax 737 position. Sir before you retire in apparent mysery perhaps you might want to take time to inspire those younger than you rather than trying to force them to accept what is definitely not an industrial inevitability.
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There are not enough qualified and experienced pilots globally to fill the front seats of airliners that are on order.
Sir, you're a bit too young to remember the early 1950's when airlines took F/O's with less than 500 hours because there just weren't pilots around.
Lots of demand + limited supply = higher salaries.
LOWER ENTRY REQUIREMENTS = LOWER SALARY.
Supply & demand is a fickle mistress. Watch as airline operators around the world start to lobby regulators & manufacturers to certify A320's & other narrow bodies, as single pilot aircraft.
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There are a lot of kids out there, who would give thier left nut to fly RPT 737/320/777/340 and they will, they couldn't care less about some old guy who used to fly a Connie.
Parents will stump up the equivelent of HECS to get them a type rating.
These days you don't need 4 or 5 people on the flight deck to get the aircraft to go where you want it to go.
If you are at an age where you can't operate a computer, then you really shouldn't be operating an airplane.
If Australia hasn't got enough local pilots, then we will get them from elsewhere.
Cheers
Parents will stump up the equivelent of HECS to get them a type rating.
These days you don't need 4 or 5 people on the flight deck to get the aircraft to go where you want it to go.
If you are at an age where you can't operate a computer, then you really shouldn't be operating an airplane.
If Australia hasn't got enough local pilots, then we will get them from elsewhere.
Cheers
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The GFC stopped the imminent pilot shortage from happening. Dixon himself acknowledged that. It will happen, I have not the slightest doubt about that. The demographics are inescapable.
What will also happen is that airlines will try every trick in the book to avoid bowing to supply and demand. Maybe it is happening already. Would Jetstar have implemented their cadet scheme if the situation was otherwise?
What will also happen is that airlines will try every trick in the book to avoid bowing to supply and demand. Maybe it is happening already. Would Jetstar have implemented their cadet scheme if the situation was otherwise?
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Hard to say. Happy coincidence perhaps?
JQ are doing the cadet thing because it fills a crew seat more cheaply than it has been doing up till now. Make no mistake about that.
A business decision, pure and simple.
JQ are doing the cadet thing because it fills a crew seat more cheaply than it has been doing up till now. Make no mistake about that.
A business decision, pure and simple.
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Shortage will never happen. Jetstar will throw 30k per annum to some indian kid and train he/she up and at 200 hours into the right seat.
Just have to wait for the first hull loss for it to change.
Or for the J* guys to fight a bloody good fight.
Just have to wait for the first hull loss for it to change.
Or for the J* guys to fight a bloody good fight.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 13th Sep 2010 at 11:49. Reason: wrong seat - gave the newbie a command
There are a lot of kids out there, who would give thier left nut to fly RPT 737/320/777/340 and they will, they couldn't care less about some old guy who used to fly a Connie.
Parents will stump up the equivelent of HECS to get them a type rating.
Parents will stump up the equivelent of HECS to get them a type rating.
As for parents willing to stump up $100k plus, again, not likely. Any parent with that kind of cash to throw around has certainly got a few smarts about them. Are they going to splash that kind of cash for a career paying peanuts or see their kids banished overseas? There may be a few, but not many.
The way things are headed, I do see a critical shortage of pilots in this country, but sadly, the positions will likely be filled by low cost imports.
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Fellas if you are waiting on lady luck (aka market forces) to save you, you'll be waiting a very long time. The world and jobs are global now. The last time there was a skilled worker shortage in my industry jobs got shipped offshore to India faster than you could blink rather than affecting wages here.
I think the person up-thread who said that demand to work in the land down under will outstrip available positions has foresight. Your lack of a real union and equal lack of any real point to unions these days is the problem. The number of aircraft in the sky cannot expand indefinately, there's a little thing called nowhere to park them at airports which limits that.
I think the person up-thread who said that demand to work in the land down under will outstrip available positions has foresight. Your lack of a real union and equal lack of any real point to unions these days is the problem. The number of aircraft in the sky cannot expand indefinately, there's a little thing called nowhere to park them at airports which limits that.
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The two most accurate posts by far as follows :
1)
100% accurate. When an academic, a businessman or an accountant runs an airline this is what happens. Maybe CEO's should only be hired if they have a minimun of 10 years airline experience within a safety capacity of some sort ? Rather than 10 years of creating gantt charts, spreadsheets and preaching about economic viability, sustainability and financial models. This sort of decision is a smoking hole waiting to happen. I cannot believe what this industry has desintergrated into.
And
2)
Very astute statement my friend. Sadly we have entered a path that is leading to a disaster. I genuinely hope I am wrong, time will tell.However the race to the bottom is accelerating.
1)
JQ are doing the cadet thing because it fills a crew seat more cheaply than it has been doing up till now. Make no mistake about that.
A business decision, pure and simple.
A business decision, pure and simple.
And
2)
Shortage will never happen. Jetstar will throw 30k per annum to some indian kid and train he/she up and at 200 hours into the left seat.
Just have to wait for the first hull loss for it to change.
Just have to wait for the first hull loss for it to change.
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And it will take a lot more than 1 hull loss to change anything.
The spindoctors will be in place to ensure the first few hull losses will be about anything, and everything other than qualifications, training and ability.
And Murphy may contribute - if anything ever DOES go wrong there is a chance that it's just **** happening ....and regardless of who was up front the end result would have been the same.
Interesting that there are more people commenting that (some) would say are negative and defeatist, but probably just realise the world, business and economies have changed....and there's no going back to the good old days.
In that context there are those who adapt - or there are dinosaurs.
And "pilot unity"??? Up there with communism: great concept, just doesn't f**king work!
Cheers
galdian
The spindoctors will be in place to ensure the first few hull losses will be about anything, and everything other than qualifications, training and ability.
And Murphy may contribute - if anything ever DOES go wrong there is a chance that it's just **** happening ....and regardless of who was up front the end result would have been the same.
Interesting that there are more people commenting that (some) would say are negative and defeatist, but probably just realise the world, business and economies have changed....and there's no going back to the good old days.
In that context there are those who adapt - or there are dinosaurs.
And "pilot unity"??? Up there with communism: great concept, just doesn't f**king work!
Cheers
galdian
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And why are the "cadets from the subcontinent" so easy? Surely if we can see that a qualification as a software engineer, or as a mine surveyor or something will earn us 10 times the income then they can too?
If it sucks to be a pilot for Australians (and Kiwis) then it sucks for other nationalities too in comparison to other industries they could target!
If it sucks to be a pilot for Australians (and Kiwis) then it sucks for other nationalities too in comparison to other industries they could target!
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Jeez what a bunch of timid, fearful naysayers. I'm all for accepting reality as long as we know what reality is....
The situation:
There is an assumption that masses of Indian labour will come to do the work that otherwise an Aussie would do. This assumes that there are Indian pilots to do it! But there aren't. Even the Indian carriers themselves are having to advertise overseas and employ expatriate captains. The same is true of China and Korea.
Few kids want to take up aviation as a career (why would they with all the expense and crap returns) and CPL issues are as a result at a post-war low. The military supply has all but evaporated and foreign pilots are desperately required in their own countries. Baby-boomers are nearing retirement and all of this whilst globally airlines have unprecedented numbers of aircraft on order.
If my statements aren't sufficiently convincing then have a look at the Boeing forecasts. They (and others) are extremely concerned at the looming critical shortage of qualified pilots, yet nothing is being done to remedy this situation. Something like 49,000 professional pilots are needed each year for the next 25 years but the training just isn't being done.
And no, as the Colgan/US Congress case just proved, you can't continuously drop experience requirements to fill pilot seats.
Reality:
The only people who can stuff up this great opportunity we now have to improve our salaries, terms and conditions is us.
So why this "history is against us, we're doomed to slide down
an inevitable path to poverty" mentality. This is not acceptance of reality it is pathetic defeatism.
How about grasping a fantastic opportunity by the balls and collectively making the most of it. Most of us have had to fight like buggery to get all of the qualifications and pass all of the theory tests and exams and sim rides and interviews and recurrent check that it proves we at least have some ability to rise to a challenge.
The situation:
There is an assumption that masses of Indian labour will come to do the work that otherwise an Aussie would do. This assumes that there are Indian pilots to do it! But there aren't. Even the Indian carriers themselves are having to advertise overseas and employ expatriate captains. The same is true of China and Korea.
Few kids want to take up aviation as a career (why would they with all the expense and crap returns) and CPL issues are as a result at a post-war low. The military supply has all but evaporated and foreign pilots are desperately required in their own countries. Baby-boomers are nearing retirement and all of this whilst globally airlines have unprecedented numbers of aircraft on order.
If my statements aren't sufficiently convincing then have a look at the Boeing forecasts. They (and others) are extremely concerned at the looming critical shortage of qualified pilots, yet nothing is being done to remedy this situation. Something like 49,000 professional pilots are needed each year for the next 25 years but the training just isn't being done.
And no, as the Colgan/US Congress case just proved, you can't continuously drop experience requirements to fill pilot seats.
Reality:
The only people who can stuff up this great opportunity we now have to improve our salaries, terms and conditions is us.
So why this "history is against us, we're doomed to slide down
an inevitable path to poverty" mentality. This is not acceptance of reality it is pathetic defeatism.
How about grasping a fantastic opportunity by the balls and collectively making the most of it. Most of us have had to fight like buggery to get all of the qualifications and pass all of the theory tests and exams and sim rides and interviews and recurrent check that it proves we at least have some ability to rise to a challenge.
Gnads,
You dont think that payrise was due to pilots leaving as apposed to CC?
You dont think that payrise was due to pilots leaving as apposed to CC?
The contact compliance campaign was long and arduous. But it worked so well that when a rescue package was put in place it was called "Back on Board". Which lasted a few minutes until the GFC arrived.
The littlest of things. Pilots asking for their log books to be stamped, even though they had no intentions of leaving, had managers unsure of attrition. Even pprune had been used as an effective industrial tool- deterring new arrivals and having senior managers answerable for mismanaging some aspects of the campaign I'd prefer not to mention.
We were a big hit with the media too. As far away as Time magazine.
Anyway. Good luck to the VB pilots. I actually hope a bunch my colleagues take the job and aid another payrise for me.
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I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees
Amen to A. Le Rhone & Gnadenburg
Our small aviation museum in regional Australia which operates a couple of military trainers, is literally next door to a TAFE college. With the aircraft in their bright air force training colours operating or parked in the sun outside, the number of kids who have come up to the fence, let alone walked through the always-open gate, to have a look, ask questions or talk to the pilot has been...ZERO.
The post-WW 2 generation were probably the most 'air minded' (to use a wonderful description from the 1930's) ever, it seemed every second kid wanted to be a pilot. However, the aging of immediate relations who could tell the young ones stories of navigating Lancasters and flying Beaufighters, the decline in popularity of the Airfix kit coinciding with the rise of computers and their associated games, the loss of 'glamour' associated with being an airline pilot (QANTAS pilots are 'tech crew' and VB pilots wear ghastly brown uniforms), I think will lead to an unprecedented shortage of pilots.
Until fuel gets very very expensive...
The post-WW 2 generation were probably the most 'air minded' (to use a wonderful description from the 1930's) ever, it seemed every second kid wanted to be a pilot. However, the aging of immediate relations who could tell the young ones stories of navigating Lancasters and flying Beaufighters, the decline in popularity of the Airfix kit coinciding with the rise of computers and their associated games, the loss of 'glamour' associated with being an airline pilot (QANTAS pilots are 'tech crew' and VB pilots wear ghastly brown uniforms), I think will lead to an unprecedented shortage of pilots.
Until fuel gets very very expensive...
'Dart, 'Le Rhone, you guys are echoing the sentiments I have been banging on about for ages. The worm will turn, we need patiance and a fair level of strategic thought.
Airline managers know what's on the horizon. The GFC gave them a reprieve a few years ago, but they are now sh!tting themselves with the realisation of the numbers involved. That's why we are seeing a rush to lock pilots into substandard deals.
It's a concept built on sand however, and just goes to prove how little grasp of the situation these so called managers have. The first airline to admit to the inevitable truth will win as far as the diminishing pool of experienced pilots go. there will be scramble for what's left and significant flight cancellations will result. Will any of these Bozos take responsibility for that? Not a chance, they will do what they have always done, spin and B.S.
Airline managers know what's on the horizon. The GFC gave them a reprieve a few years ago, but they are now sh!tting themselves with the realisation of the numbers involved. That's why we are seeing a rush to lock pilots into substandard deals.
It's a concept built on sand however, and just goes to prove how little grasp of the situation these so called managers have. The first airline to admit to the inevitable truth will win as far as the diminishing pool of experienced pilots go. there will be scramble for what's left and significant flight cancellations will result. Will any of these Bozos take responsibility for that? Not a chance, they will do what they have always done, spin and B.S.
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Krusty, they are just going to import 200 hour kids from impoverished countries to solve the problem. J* will kick it off the rest will follow. There wont be a shortage.
Back to the 330..
Back to the 330..