Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23
Dr Prepz
There's a few good facts there which may be close to the mark. But are you able to appraise the readers of the following as they pertain to Singapore:
- what assistance Jetstar plans in order to get 'interested' pilots up there,
- the cost of owning a moderate family car,
- the cost of a mortgage on a modest three-bedroom home on 600sq.m block, or alternatively
- the cost of renting an air-conditioned three bedroom apartment,
- the cost of schooling children,
- the costs of health care to expats, and
- what assistance Jetstar plans to offer to get expat staff and their famiilies back to their 'Australian city of origin' for important family events (births/weddings/funerals) like other expat-hiring companies do.
I don't know the answers, but I do know that previous 'expat' pilot contracts, and for that matter any other business too, are on substantially better terms than would be offered to the locals. What's your take on that?
- what assistance Jetstar plans in order to get 'interested' pilots up there,
- the cost of owning a moderate family car,
- the cost of a mortgage on a modest three-bedroom home on 600sq.m block, or alternatively
- the cost of renting an air-conditioned three bedroom apartment,
- the cost of schooling children,
- the costs of health care to expats, and
- what assistance Jetstar plans to offer to get expat staff and their famiilies back to their 'Australian city of origin' for important family events (births/weddings/funerals) like other expat-hiring companies do.
I don't know the answers, but I do know that previous 'expat' pilot contracts, and for that matter any other business too, are on substantially better terms than would be offered to the locals. What's your take on that?
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Interesting reading comments and theories.
Management and their spin is not only out of control, becoming irrelevant. The workers at the coal face know what is going on.
As for unity and the unions. You don`t need to be in a union for unity. You just need to stand with your fellow co-workers and fight for the common goal.
As for union, I am getting a little tired of Captains spriuking the AFAP/AIPA to me on a daily basis.
AFAP have done nothing for anyone in the Jet* group since I have been there except for a few ex-Ansett guys.
AIPA, have a massive conflict of interest. If they are representing Jet* best interest, then they can`t be doing the same for Qanats pilots. And it is the Qantas pilots union. If they are representing our best interests, than if I was a Qantas pilot I would be pissed off and want to know why? And why are they looking after there own.
gordonfvckingramsay makes a good point.
Management and their spin is not only out of control, becoming irrelevant. The workers at the coal face know what is going on.
As for unity and the unions. You don`t need to be in a union for unity. You just need to stand with your fellow co-workers and fight for the common goal.
As for union, I am getting a little tired of Captains spriuking the AFAP/AIPA to me on a daily basis.
AFAP have done nothing for anyone in the Jet* group since I have been there except for a few ex-Ansett guys.
AIPA, have a massive conflict of interest. If they are representing Jet* best interest, then they can`t be doing the same for Qanats pilots. And it is the Qantas pilots union. If they are representing our best interests, than if I was a Qantas pilot I would be pissed off and want to know why? And why are they looking after there own.
gordonfvckingramsay makes a good point.
Nunc est bibendum
The conspiracy theorists are at it I see.
Riddle me this. If AIPA was worried about getting QF cranky for the upcoming LH EBA, why were they the driving force behind the 23 Aug meeting? Why would they give overt support to the motions put forward? Why would they keep fighting for pilot unity in this regard?
If AIPA didn't give a toss about J* pilots why would they bother organising this meeting? Why would they encourage such a show of solidarity from QF crew?
The allegation has been levelled that by supporting J* pilots AIPA obviously doesn't care about it's mainline pilot group or that AIPA needs to make a choice between the two. Maybe, just maybe those in AIPA understand that it's unity that is needed rather than disunity. Maybe, just maybe, those in AIPA understand that what happens to one group of pilots will ultimately happen to us all. Maybe, just maybe those in AIPA (including the signifiant number of mainline crew present at the meeting) understand where the future of this industry is headed and want to work together to preserve what we have.
Maybe, just maybe those who post anti AIPA comments on here (ratpoison, gordonramsay, metrosmoker) have alternative agendas. Whilst they (and others like Van Gogh) lead the call for other options (TWU, etc), remember who it was that drove the coordination and setting up of this meeting in the first instance.
Ultimately, join whatever pilot's union (or TWU) that you want to but learn to understand that all pilots share more with each other than any of us do with management. Disunity is what kills us and ignorant, ill informed allegations as to AIPA's role (or otherwise) in the short to medium term shows that many on this forum have yet to learn that lesson.
Riddle me this. If AIPA was worried about getting QF cranky for the upcoming LH EBA, why were they the driving force behind the 23 Aug meeting? Why would they give overt support to the motions put forward? Why would they keep fighting for pilot unity in this regard?
If AIPA didn't give a toss about J* pilots why would they bother organising this meeting? Why would they encourage such a show of solidarity from QF crew?
The allegation has been levelled that by supporting J* pilots AIPA obviously doesn't care about it's mainline pilot group or that AIPA needs to make a choice between the two. Maybe, just maybe those in AIPA understand that it's unity that is needed rather than disunity. Maybe, just maybe, those in AIPA understand that what happens to one group of pilots will ultimately happen to us all. Maybe, just maybe those in AIPA (including the signifiant number of mainline crew present at the meeting) understand where the future of this industry is headed and want to work together to preserve what we have.
Maybe, just maybe those who post anti AIPA comments on here (ratpoison, gordonramsay, metrosmoker) have alternative agendas. Whilst they (and others like Van Gogh) lead the call for other options (TWU, etc), remember who it was that drove the coordination and setting up of this meeting in the first instance.
Ultimately, join whatever pilot's union (or TWU) that you want to but learn to understand that all pilots share more with each other than any of us do with management. Disunity is what kills us and ignorant, ill informed allegations as to AIPA's role (or otherwise) in the short to medium term shows that many on this forum have yet to learn that lesson.
Nunc est bibendum
Expat packages in Singapore
I have a little brother in SIN. He's in engineering sales. His package includes rent and utilities in 4 b/r unit, a car, health care, education for his kids, two flights home per annum for his family and then $100K SGD on top of all that. Last I checked his rent was about $6K SGD a month. In Australia his package would be car and $90K AUD. So unless you get rent, utilities, health care, education and flights home you're on a crappier deal than most other expat positions in Singapore.
Grandpa Aerotart
Keg is spot on - when I left Singapore 8+ years ago the school fees were Sin$20k++ (uniforms/books etc etc etc)/annum PER CHILD at the Australian International School. If anyone, particularly management, suggests you can put your child in a local school he/she is being particularly disingenuous - its not an option for all sorts of social and cultural reasons.
Last I heard AIS (great school btw, my daughter loved it) was Sin$25k++/annum/child.
Even living well away from the expat enclaves (which we did and loved but then I was operating out of Seletar not Changi) a nice 3/4 bedroom apartment will be 4-5k Sin/month ++ (utilities etc).
Everything in Singapore is expensive unless you live like a local - thats ok a few days a week but again not sustainable long term unless you thrive on noodles.
For BB to suggest wages must be locally competitive is BS - all airlines in asia employ expats because they dont have enough qualified locals - expat T&Cs are significantly better than what the same individual would earn working back in Oz - that is the only reason we stay expats - if I wasn't financially better off overseas I would have applied to VB/J* et al YEARS ago.
The typical expat package includes a net wage equal or better than what is on offer at home PLUS housing/school fees/medical/evacuation insurance (for the whole family)/annual leave tickets/decent staff travel for the whole family and a decent personal effects shipping allowance.
For the theoretical J* captain grossing Aud$180-200k that means Sin$220k before you take into account the expat package which for someone with 2 kids of school age would easily top a further S$120k. Anything less than that and you WILL be financially worse off in Singapore and when the novelty wears off, and it does, you will be a very unhappy bunny - or your wife will be which means you will be too.
Go and find out what an expat SQ A330/777 captain/FO's package is and then compare it to what J* is offering. Don't let BB suggest their package is generous compared to local pilot wages in asia because you are NOT LOCALS.
It would be a VERY cold day in hell before BB would accept a package that did not include all the above to go and manage a company in Singapore - why should you?
Last I heard AIS (great school btw, my daughter loved it) was Sin$25k++/annum/child.
Even living well away from the expat enclaves (which we did and loved but then I was operating out of Seletar not Changi) a nice 3/4 bedroom apartment will be 4-5k Sin/month ++ (utilities etc).
Everything in Singapore is expensive unless you live like a local - thats ok a few days a week but again not sustainable long term unless you thrive on noodles.
For BB to suggest wages must be locally competitive is BS - all airlines in asia employ expats because they dont have enough qualified locals - expat T&Cs are significantly better than what the same individual would earn working back in Oz - that is the only reason we stay expats - if I wasn't financially better off overseas I would have applied to VB/J* et al YEARS ago.
The typical expat package includes a net wage equal or better than what is on offer at home PLUS housing/school fees/medical/evacuation insurance (for the whole family)/annual leave tickets/decent staff travel for the whole family and a decent personal effects shipping allowance.
For the theoretical J* captain grossing Aud$180-200k that means Sin$220k before you take into account the expat package which for someone with 2 kids of school age would easily top a further S$120k. Anything less than that and you WILL be financially worse off in Singapore and when the novelty wears off, and it does, you will be a very unhappy bunny - or your wife will be which means you will be too.
Go and find out what an expat SQ A330/777 captain/FO's package is and then compare it to what J* is offering. Don't let BB suggest their package is generous compared to local pilot wages in asia because you are NOT LOCALS.
It would be a VERY cold day in hell before BB would accept a package that did not include all the above to go and manage a company in Singapore - why should you?
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Jetsbest:
The thing about Singapore is a lot of the housing market (90%) is only accessible to locals. Locals can get subsidised housing, use their superannuation to buy their homes, get up to S$40k in government grants to buy a home etc.
Th remaining 10% of the housing market that is accessible to foreigners are very short in supply and highly speculative.
Locals also get subsidised healthcare and virtually free education.
Foreigners who are not PRs have no access to the local housing market and have to pay absurd levels for rent. $3k to $6k a month for an apartment in rental is probably the going rate these days.
If any Jetstar Australia pilot is getting a deal in Singapore with no housing provided for them, I would say they are then getting a very bad deal. And I say this as a Singaporean too.
It's only as a Singapore citizen or PR that you can tap onto the various structures the government has put in place to enable you to enjoy the low tax, health care and provident fund (superannuation) they have put in place. As a foreigner, you basically only get to enjoy the low tax part, but without access to the local housing market, you're pretty screwed really.
I guess the Singapore government put such structures in place to ensure that employers try and fill skilled vacancies with Singaporeans first, and then if they cannot find Singaporeans to do the job, they can then pay a premium for a foreigner to do it (the premium being the housing allowance). This is of course natural for any government, to ensure its citizens get employed as a priority.
Since most Singaporean pilots are employed by the SIA Group of Airlines or associated airlines, the number of Singapore citizens or PRs left for Jetstar's SIN base would be very, very limited I would think.
Most Australians I know in Singapore who are on local packages are married to Singaporean wives and have PR and thus have access to the local housing market and schools for their kids. If you don't have PR and/or a Singaporean spouse, again, I think you're pretty much screwed.
The thing about Singapore is a lot of the housing market (90%) is only accessible to locals. Locals can get subsidised housing, use their superannuation to buy their homes, get up to S$40k in government grants to buy a home etc.
Th remaining 10% of the housing market that is accessible to foreigners are very short in supply and highly speculative.
Locals also get subsidised healthcare and virtually free education.
Foreigners who are not PRs have no access to the local housing market and have to pay absurd levels for rent. $3k to $6k a month for an apartment in rental is probably the going rate these days.
If any Jetstar Australia pilot is getting a deal in Singapore with no housing provided for them, I would say they are then getting a very bad deal. And I say this as a Singaporean too.
It's only as a Singapore citizen or PR that you can tap onto the various structures the government has put in place to enable you to enjoy the low tax, health care and provident fund (superannuation) they have put in place. As a foreigner, you basically only get to enjoy the low tax part, but without access to the local housing market, you're pretty screwed really.
I guess the Singapore government put such structures in place to ensure that employers try and fill skilled vacancies with Singaporeans first, and then if they cannot find Singaporeans to do the job, they can then pay a premium for a foreigner to do it (the premium being the housing allowance). This is of course natural for any government, to ensure its citizens get employed as a priority.
Since most Singaporean pilots are employed by the SIA Group of Airlines or associated airlines, the number of Singapore citizens or PRs left for Jetstar's SIN base would be very, very limited I would think.
Most Australians I know in Singapore who are on local packages are married to Singaporean wives and have PR and thus have access to the local housing market and schools for their kids. If you don't have PR and/or a Singaporean spouse, again, I think you're pretty much screwed.
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Chimbu Chuckles:
I agree with you. I am a Singaporean currently living in Dubai on an expat package. I was happy with my local package in Singapore but wouldn't have moved to Dubai if the company didn't offer me some salary premium + expat benefits for living away from home.
If there was no premium to my salary for living outside Singapore, why on earth would I have moved from my comfort zone?
All my Singaporean friends who were posted by their companies to foreign locations received somewhere between 1.5 to 2x their salary + tax equalisation (since just about every place on earth has higher tax than SIN) + housing benefits + air tickets home.
I have NEVER heard of people relocating to another country for less money.
This has nothing to do with race or nationality. It's pure common sense.
I agree with you. I am a Singaporean currently living in Dubai on an expat package. I was happy with my local package in Singapore but wouldn't have moved to Dubai if the company didn't offer me some salary premium + expat benefits for living away from home.
If there was no premium to my salary for living outside Singapore, why on earth would I have moved from my comfort zone?
All my Singaporean friends who were posted by their companies to foreign locations received somewhere between 1.5 to 2x their salary + tax equalisation (since just about every place on earth has higher tax than SIN) + housing benefits + air tickets home.
I have NEVER heard of people relocating to another country for less money.
This has nothing to do with race or nationality. It's pure common sense.
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Oh by the way BB is speaking rubbish when he says that within Asia he cannot pay proper salaries because Asians cannot afford to pay Australian airline fares.
Some time ago, I did a cost per employee comparison of major airlines, based on their annual reports
Imageshack - airlinestaffcostshz7.jpg - Uploaded by docpepz
SQ has higher labour costs per employee than NZ, CX, EK, MH and TG. Actually SQ's costs per employee are about double that of MH and TG, which are the two countries closest to Singapore. (I don't have the figure for Garuda though)
As those stats were from 2008, with the depreciation of the Euro, SQ and LH have similar costs per employee.
SQ's costs per employee are 20% lower than QF, I suspect mainly due to to the strong AUD. Dollar for dollar, SQ's cost per employee is the same as QF's. Anyway the AUD is so volatile it could swing either way for Aussie companies which outsource solely on forex.
Yet SQ has consistently been more profitable than MH, TG, GA and the myriad of airlines from countries with wages up to 90% lower than Singapore.
Foreign exchange? The SGD today is 35% stronger against the Thai Baht, 40% stronger against the Malaysian Ringgit and 700% stronger against the Indonesian Rupiah when compared to 1995. SQ hasn't collapsed as a result.
SIA operates from a high wage, high cost economy compared to its regional peers, and the SGD has been in a longterm uptrend against most if not all regional currencies. If wages were the be all and end all, SQ would have gone bankrupt today. Yet it is MH, TG and GA who have all flirted with bankruptcy. And despite paying significantly higher wages, SQ's cost per ASK is lower than all SE Asian Full Service Carriers.
Typically, high wages are a symptom of a developed economy and high labour productivity. This is why a Malaysian working in Johor Bahru which is 2km from Singapore, would earn 3 times less than a Singaporean doing the exact same job.
Has any country ever successfully devalued its currency and cut the wages of its people to ensure continued success?
Some time ago, I did a cost per employee comparison of major airlines, based on their annual reports
Imageshack - airlinestaffcostshz7.jpg - Uploaded by docpepz
SQ has higher labour costs per employee than NZ, CX, EK, MH and TG. Actually SQ's costs per employee are about double that of MH and TG, which are the two countries closest to Singapore. (I don't have the figure for Garuda though)
As those stats were from 2008, with the depreciation of the Euro, SQ and LH have similar costs per employee.
SQ's costs per employee are 20% lower than QF, I suspect mainly due to to the strong AUD. Dollar for dollar, SQ's cost per employee is the same as QF's. Anyway the AUD is so volatile it could swing either way for Aussie companies which outsource solely on forex.
Yet SQ has consistently been more profitable than MH, TG, GA and the myriad of airlines from countries with wages up to 90% lower than Singapore.
Foreign exchange? The SGD today is 35% stronger against the Thai Baht, 40% stronger against the Malaysian Ringgit and 700% stronger against the Indonesian Rupiah when compared to 1995. SQ hasn't collapsed as a result.
SIA operates from a high wage, high cost economy compared to its regional peers, and the SGD has been in a longterm uptrend against most if not all regional currencies. If wages were the be all and end all, SQ would have gone bankrupt today. Yet it is MH, TG and GA who have all flirted with bankruptcy. And despite paying significantly higher wages, SQ's cost per ASK is lower than all SE Asian Full Service Carriers.
Typically, high wages are a symptom of a developed economy and high labour productivity. This is why a Malaysian working in Johor Bahru which is 2km from Singapore, would earn 3 times less than a Singaporean doing the exact same job.
Has any country ever successfully devalued its currency and cut the wages of its people to ensure continued success?
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Keg,
You need to go back and re read the post ol china. Since I am a PAYING MEMBER of AIPA for many many years, your statement of being ANTI-AIPA is not appropriate. One should not put both feet in thy mouth Keg as it always leaves thee with no leg to stand on!
I was also at the meeting Keg. Certainly a great show of support from the guys and gals from many regions and operators. Yes AIPA started the ball rolling by organizing it. Yes, it probably would not have even occurred without AIPA.
However Keg, a week later and NOTHING heard. A week later and what has AIPA suggested the J* folk and no doubt the whole bloody industry do about this clown who is hell bent on decimating this profession. A letter Keg, a letter from Jackson to BB and the useless Chief Pilot stating a motion of no confidence in the CEO. A letter that was no doubt thrown in the bin accompanied by hours of raucous laughter.
We need a show of force and CONSISTENT communication Keg to make this happen. We need CONSISTENT leadership on what actions that PROFESSIONAL negotiators and PR folk suggest we do against these clowns.
Quite a naive statement and accusation to make towards "ratpoison, gordonramsay, metrosmoker and Van" of being anti AIPA when all we are basically asking is "WHAT THE F**K IS HAPPENING NOW" with NO communication whatsoever.
We all keep asking WHY AIPA are NOT spending OUR monies and utilizing professionals who deal with this type of vermin on a daily basis.
Why is that Keg??
You need to go back and re read the post ol china. Since I am a PAYING MEMBER of AIPA for many many years, your statement of being ANTI-AIPA is not appropriate. One should not put both feet in thy mouth Keg as it always leaves thee with no leg to stand on!
I was also at the meeting Keg. Certainly a great show of support from the guys and gals from many regions and operators. Yes AIPA started the ball rolling by organizing it. Yes, it probably would not have even occurred without AIPA.
However Keg, a week later and NOTHING heard. A week later and what has AIPA suggested the J* folk and no doubt the whole bloody industry do about this clown who is hell bent on decimating this profession. A letter Keg, a letter from Jackson to BB and the useless Chief Pilot stating a motion of no confidence in the CEO. A letter that was no doubt thrown in the bin accompanied by hours of raucous laughter.
We need a show of force and CONSISTENT communication Keg to make this happen. We need CONSISTENT leadership on what actions that PROFESSIONAL negotiators and PR folk suggest we do against these clowns.
Quite a naive statement and accusation to make towards "ratpoison, gordonramsay, metrosmoker and Van" of being anti AIPA when all we are basically asking is "WHAT THE F**K IS HAPPENING NOW" with NO communication whatsoever.
We all keep asking WHY AIPA are NOT spending OUR monies and utilizing professionals who deal with this type of vermin on a daily basis.
Why is that Keg??
Last edited by ratpoison; 30th Aug 2010 at 00:41.
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I think that BB is not your only nemisis. You have to remember who is pulling the strings. Buchanan is only a puppet. AJ is in this up to his neck too.
Who was the bloke who instigated this mess @ 8 yrs ago??
BB is only doing what he is directed to do!!
Who was the bloke who instigated this mess @ 8 yrs ago??
BB is only doing what he is directed to do!!
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ratpoison,
Firstly, seeing as though you were at the meeting, I'll presume you nipped out to the bar for a quick schooner when they were explaining PIA.
Secondly,
Why the f**k are you asking this on an anonymous internet forum when you are a paid up AIPA member. No phones at your house?
Thirdly, speaking of raucous laughter, that's exactly what management types will be doing when reading your posts in this thread about unity.
Firstly, seeing as though you were at the meeting, I'll presume you nipped out to the bar for a quick schooner when they were explaining PIA.
Secondly,
"WHAT THE F**K IS HAPPENING NOW"
Thirdly, speaking of raucous laughter, that's exactly what management types will be doing when reading your posts in this thread about unity.
Ratpoison,
No one is upset with you for wanting more communication, a good PR firm and asking what is going on, but suggesting on a public forum that your union, our union, is working in other than your best interest, without any factual basis to support that contention, will always invite criticism.
Right now we need passion, we need action, we need to be vocal, but more importantly we need to be unified.
I too am hoping for a more consistent PR campaign to be launched soon.
Regards,
MHA
No one is upset with you for wanting more communication, a good PR firm and asking what is going on, but suggesting on a public forum that your union, our union, is working in other than your best interest, without any factual basis to support that contention, will always invite criticism.
Right now we need passion, we need action, we need to be vocal, but more importantly we need to be unified.
I too am hoping for a more consistent PR campaign to be launched soon.
Regards,
MHA
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Where have I stated anti AIPA comments Keg?
All I did was highlight an undeniable and obvious conflict of interest.
Jet* and Qantas compete for the same flying. If AIPA fight to advance my career, than they are doing so at the detrement of a mainline F/O-S/O. If AIPA fight for the mailine group,(if I was a mailine pilot than I would expect nothing less) than they are not acting in the best interest or my company.
As I said, unity can be achieved without compulsory union membership.
Why did AIPA organise the meeting and have so many mailine guys there? Simple.
When this A330 lands in Singapore, it will be the first example of a Qantas mainline aircraft being flown by foreign nationals on foreign terms and conditions. This is a Qantas aircraft being given to an overseas entity.
The Qantas LHEBA is about to be subdiverted, as is your senority. Qantas has more to loose by this than Jet* does.
All the chest beating in the world is useless without any real plan for action.
On another point. What is the point of fighting for the T&C`s of an overseas company. Jet*Asia employs a handful of Aussies. The majority are foreigners. Why should any Australian Union waste time, money and precious reasources fighting for them. If guys want to leave and fly overseas on those terms, then let them. If I go and join EK/CX/Dragon or Silk Air, is AIPA going to come and help negotiate the next EBA for me because I am an Australian memeber?
Shouldn`t the fight be at home first?
Australian registered aircraft and/or operated on an Australian AOC, MUST BE flown on Australian T&C`s. It is as simple as that.
All I did was highlight an undeniable and obvious conflict of interest.
Jet* and Qantas compete for the same flying. If AIPA fight to advance my career, than they are doing so at the detrement of a mainline F/O-S/O. If AIPA fight for the mailine group,(if I was a mailine pilot than I would expect nothing less) than they are not acting in the best interest or my company.
As I said, unity can be achieved without compulsory union membership.
Why did AIPA organise the meeting and have so many mailine guys there? Simple.
When this A330 lands in Singapore, it will be the first example of a Qantas mainline aircraft being flown by foreign nationals on foreign terms and conditions. This is a Qantas aircraft being given to an overseas entity.
The Qantas LHEBA is about to be subdiverted, as is your senority. Qantas has more to loose by this than Jet* does.
All the chest beating in the world is useless without any real plan for action.
On another point. What is the point of fighting for the T&C`s of an overseas company. Jet*Asia employs a handful of Aussies. The majority are foreigners. Why should any Australian Union waste time, money and precious reasources fighting for them. If guys want to leave and fly overseas on those terms, then let them. If I go and join EK/CX/Dragon or Silk Air, is AIPA going to come and help negotiate the next EBA for me because I am an Australian memeber?
Shouldn`t the fight be at home first?
Australian registered aircraft and/or operated on an Australian AOC, MUST BE flown on Australian T&C`s. It is as simple as that.
Nunc est bibendum
ratpoison, holic has been a bit more blunt than I tend to be but he's pretty close to the mark. You assert that because you're paying fees you're not anti-AIPA and yet your earlier comments indicate that AIPA is on a 'go slow' because the LH EBA is up for negotiation? If your comments aren't anti-AIPA then what are they? If you have concerns then why not phone or email direct?
As to not reading your whole post (china), if you re-read mine you'll see that I did. Despite it being just six days from the meeting, you reckon that AIPA is quiet because the LH EBA matter is up for negotiations. I respond that your assertion is essentially a load of crap and if the LH EBA actually was an issue then AIPA would never have had a meeting and never encouraged mainline crew to attend in the first instance.
What I don't get though is why you're bothering with this line of thought on PPRUNE where it can have the least effect but it will give comfort to those who are trying to do the very things that AIPA is trying to prevent.
Perhaps i just lack your clarity of thought. 
As to not reading your whole post (china), if you re-read mine you'll see that I did. Despite it being just six days from the meeting, you reckon that AIPA is quiet because the LH EBA matter is up for negotiations. I respond that your assertion is essentially a load of crap and if the LH EBA actually was an issue then AIPA would never have had a meeting and never encouraged mainline crew to attend in the first instance.
What I don't get though is why you're bothering with this line of thought on PPRUNE where it can have the least effect but it will give comfort to those who are trying to do the very things that AIPA is trying to prevent.
Perhaps i just lack your clarity of thought.
Nunc est bibendum
metro, perhaps I'll re-phrase. You're pushing an anti unity model. You're pushing that because J* drivers and QF drivers 'compete' for the same flying from the CEO that we should be represented separately. You don't get that we can achieve far more than working together than apart.
Sadly, many drivers have been pushing this line since well before 2000- despite some actions by a few QF drivers and supposedly one notable AIPA president. Sadly, despite the show of solidarity in attempting to draw a line in the sand- a line that WILL ultimately affect ALL airline pilots in Australia, you STILL see QF drivers as the enemy. What happens to one of us happens to all of us. You still haven't learned that lesson and like ratpoison, view this as pilot v pilot rather than pilots v management.
No wonder J* is trying this on if you and ratpoison are an example of the type of the thinking they will encounter.
Sadly, many drivers have been pushing this line since well before 2000- despite some actions by a few QF drivers and supposedly one notable AIPA president. Sadly, despite the show of solidarity in attempting to draw a line in the sand- a line that WILL ultimately affect ALL airline pilots in Australia, you STILL see QF drivers as the enemy. What happens to one of us happens to all of us. You still haven't learned that lesson and like ratpoison, view this as pilot v pilot rather than pilots v management.
No wonder J* is trying this on if you and ratpoison are an example of the type of the thinking they will encounter.
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Oh please Holic, as if I would be wanting AIPA to spread the good news on a public forum.
Get with it, no I don't have a phone in the house. Mobiles these days ol mate and yes it has been used to dial the AIPA office. You know what the response was Holic? Figure it for yourself as it wont be appropriate here on the forum to state it, however I wasn't all that impressed. Email Holic......unanswered.
INACTION Holic is what makes raucous laughter. This crap should be in the news EVERYDAY.
Headlines:
JETSTAR MOVES AUSTRALIAN JOBS OFFSHORE.
JETSTAR CUTTING COSTS ON PILOT SKILLS AND TRAINING.
JETSTAR TO HAVE INEXPERIENCED LOW SKILLED FOREIGN PILOTS FLY WITHIN AUSTRALIAN DOMESTIC CITIES.
JETSTAR CABIN CREW HAVE TWO WEEKS TRAINING.
AUSTRALIAN AVIATION HEADING FOR THIRD WORLD STANDARD AS EXPERIENCED PILOTS LEAVE INDUSTRY.
AUSTRALIAN AVIATION SAFETY APPROACHING ALL TIME LOW.
JETSTAR CREATE UNTENABLE WORKING ENVIRONMENT FOR AUSTRALIAN PILOTS AND CABIN CREW AND MOVE JOBS OFFSHORE.
FOREIGN PILOTS AND CABIN CREW USED TO AVOID PAYING AUSTRALIAN TAX.
Are we all seeing this Holic?
As I said, the silence is deafening and what is going on???
Keg, if you choose to believe my statements as "pilot verses pilot", then you have a real comprehension issue. At the risk of repeating myself for you, it's all about INACTION Keg. USE the media and get a PR company. I hope it does not get to the point where I have to spit it out on the garage floor for you to read and digest.
No phones at your house?
INACTION Holic is what makes raucous laughter. This crap should be in the news EVERYDAY.
Headlines:
JETSTAR MOVES AUSTRALIAN JOBS OFFSHORE.
JETSTAR CUTTING COSTS ON PILOT SKILLS AND TRAINING.
JETSTAR TO HAVE INEXPERIENCED LOW SKILLED FOREIGN PILOTS FLY WITHIN AUSTRALIAN DOMESTIC CITIES.
JETSTAR CABIN CREW HAVE TWO WEEKS TRAINING.
AUSTRALIAN AVIATION HEADING FOR THIRD WORLD STANDARD AS EXPERIENCED PILOTS LEAVE INDUSTRY.
AUSTRALIAN AVIATION SAFETY APPROACHING ALL TIME LOW.
JETSTAR CREATE UNTENABLE WORKING ENVIRONMENT FOR AUSTRALIAN PILOTS AND CABIN CREW AND MOVE JOBS OFFSHORE.
FOREIGN PILOTS AND CABIN CREW USED TO AVOID PAYING AUSTRALIAN TAX.
Are we all seeing this Holic?
As I said, the silence is deafening and what is going on???
Keg, if you choose to believe my statements as "pilot verses pilot", then you have a real comprehension issue. At the risk of repeating myself for you, it's all about INACTION Keg. USE the media and get a PR company. I hope it does not get to the point where I have to spit it out on the garage floor for you to read and digest.
Last edited by ratpoison; 30th Aug 2010 at 02:13.