Age limit to 70?
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Great post alright TG.
I've always thought that when pilots reach the age when they can no longer sit in the left seat then they should go to the bottom of the seniority list and become a librarian (S/O).
Then they could do the walk-arounds in the rain, order the after t/o refreshments, make up the bunk and do the paperwork. S/O pay of course.
I've always thought that when pilots reach the age when they can no longer sit in the left seat then they should go to the bottom of the seniority list and become a librarian (S/O).
Then they could do the walk-arounds in the rain, order the after t/o refreshments, make up the bunk and do the paperwork. S/O pay of course.
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I understand the average life expectancy following retirement is approx. 5 yrs. (My understanding only!!!).
I believe a major factor contributing to this is the fact that a large majority of people have minimal interests in life outside of their career.
I also believe that generally a large number of people in Aviation, and particularly Civil Aviation, have even less than the average interests in life outside of their careers. A lot of factors contribute towards this including the following:
So having read the inspiring post by Teresa Green, maybe instead of thinking about working longer and longer, we should be looking at developing interests outside of the career earlier and earlier, so that the transition from working, to retirement, and then maintaining a fullfilling, rewarding life goes way beyond the 5 year average.
Having a successful, challenging, and rewarding career is very important in life, but it is my belief that it is as important to seek fullfilment, and satisfaction, from as many areas as possible in life, other than work.
I have known too many people over the years who consider it extremely important, for their own well being, to be able to say that they worked for 'ABC' airlines for 40+ years, and it is my opinion that this is, in reality, only impressive at the reunion dinners and means very little else to anybody other than yourself, once retired, and does little to contribute to a long, rewarding life following retirement.
That said, if for some people what makes for a fullfilling, rewarding life is to be able to tell people how many years they spent at work, and they are capable of carrying on in the career, then best of luck to them. Most important of all is to make the decision to retire with your family, for yourself and your family, not because of the ideal of another.
I for one would much rather be able to tell people that I retired at a young age, have a single figure golf handicap, go fishing when I like, did 40+ years in retirement, and have the people I am telling it to be from all walks of life, including Aviation.
With a bit of luck I will make the single figure turn to scratch, and be turning my head skywards as a jet airliner disturbs my game, or should I have said disturbs my life!
GB
I believe a major factor contributing to this is the fact that a large majority of people have minimal interests in life outside of their career.
I also believe that generally a large number of people in Aviation, and particularly Civil Aviation, have even less than the average interests in life outside of their careers. A lot of factors contribute towards this including the following:
- The working life in Civil Aviation is very anti-social with regards to hours worked, when they are worked, time off etc.
- Largely because of point 1 people in aviation tend to have a social base of others they work with in Aviation.
- Because of both points 2, and 3, many people lose touch with what is going on around them with old friends, dont get to make new friends, and generally the career takes over as the major part of life, leaving not much else.
So having read the inspiring post by Teresa Green, maybe instead of thinking about working longer and longer, we should be looking at developing interests outside of the career earlier and earlier, so that the transition from working, to retirement, and then maintaining a fullfilling, rewarding life goes way beyond the 5 year average.
Having a successful, challenging, and rewarding career is very important in life, but it is my belief that it is as important to seek fullfilment, and satisfaction, from as many areas as possible in life, other than work.
I have known too many people over the years who consider it extremely important, for their own well being, to be able to say that they worked for 'ABC' airlines for 40+ years, and it is my opinion that this is, in reality, only impressive at the reunion dinners and means very little else to anybody other than yourself, once retired, and does little to contribute to a long, rewarding life following retirement.
That said, if for some people what makes for a fullfilling, rewarding life is to be able to tell people how many years they spent at work, and they are capable of carrying on in the career, then best of luck to them. Most important of all is to make the decision to retire with your family, for yourself and your family, not because of the ideal of another.
I for one would much rather be able to tell people that I retired at a young age, have a single figure golf handicap, go fishing when I like, did 40+ years in retirement, and have the people I am telling it to be from all walks of life, including Aviation.
With a bit of luck I will make the single figure turn to scratch, and be turning my head skywards as a jet airliner disturbs my game, or should I have said disturbs my life!
GB
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It is possible some of the blokes hanging on are 89ers. Some were not so lucky to get a job, after the "trainwreck" and basically went broke. In that era most of us had young families, and it was a hell of a struggle to survive, with mortgages, school fees etc so it was into the savings and super, and the nest egg turned into a bantams egg for many. You need a buck in the bank to retire without hardship these days, so rather than greed it might be more like they don't have a choice, just a thought.
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obie2 my good man,
From a post you made on the 2nd July 2010....
My bold...
And a reply to your post very shortly after on the same day...
And yet another reply shortly after the one above, on the same day...
And another...
And another...
And another...
And another...
And another...
OUCH....
I bet you have a handicap of 27 and can sometimes play to it.
GB
From a post you made on the 2nd July 2010....
Sorry guys. Being a retired airline pilot and after 45 yrs in the business, having started at the age of 19, and progressing from SPL to PPL to CPL to Instructor rating to SCPL to 2nd class ATPL and then finally a 1st class ATPL and then 16 odd thousand hrs on a variety of piston, turbo prop and jet a/c including checking and training time, I thought I might be able to help out poor old 100 hrs with his dilemma!
Obviously not!
I shall leave "100 hrs" and the rest of you "experts" to it!
Best of british luck!
Obviously not!
I shall leave "100 hrs" and the rest of you "experts" to it!
Best of british luck!
My bold...
And a reply to your post very shortly after on the same day...
yes, obviously not. You came across as rude and incapable of reading what 100 hours was asking. And your list of qualifications doesn't change a thing. Rude and unhelpful is still rude and unhelpful however many hours you have.
And yet another reply shortly after the one above, on the same day...
I am sick of comments by people like this who show a grandiose superiority about their own self-importance.
I don't care if you have a million hours and a type rating to fly Virgin Galactic into space. I would not want to be taught by someone like yourself.
I don't care if you have a million hours and a type rating to fly Virgin Galactic into space. I would not want to be taught by someone like yourself.
Obie2. From your vast experience in aviation, I am sure you have forgotten things 30 years ago that I am still only going to learn 5 years from now.
You clearly are highly experienced (did I see right on your profile - you flew the Concorde? WOW!!!)
You can offer so much advice and share so many experiences with someone as unexperienced as myself.
May I ask you something though, just have another look at your first post (reply) to me. Is there honestly anything in this post that could have helped me with my question (except making me think that I am useless as a pilot and should rather quit?)
Anyways, congrats on a very successful career in aviation. Many young pilots aspire to have a career as great as yours. For me, I am content being PPL, but always try to improve my skills and learn something new
You clearly are highly experienced (did I see right on your profile - you flew the Concorde? WOW!!!)
You can offer so much advice and share so many experiences with someone as unexperienced as myself.
May I ask you something though, just have another look at your first post (reply) to me. Is there honestly anything in this post that could have helped me with my question (except making me think that I am useless as a pilot and should rather quit?)
Anyways, congrats on a very successful career in aviation. Many young pilots aspire to have a career as great as yours. For me, I am content being PPL, but always try to improve my skills and learn something new
Good grief man, some of us simply do not want a CPL or an instructor's ticket. Is that a crime? Are we all allowed to be different?
Hmm, I wouldnt bother, looking at his other posts I think his only qualification is being troll, and not a very convincing one at that. 
And another...
Obie2 - comments like yours are what gives PPRuNe a bad name. They are uncalled for and arrogant nonsense to boot.
You have had a career in flying. Well good for you. You are in the wrong forum. This is for pilots who fly for pleasure. I am more than sure that flying with you would be anything but a pleasure you crusty old maggot.
You have had a career in flying. Well good for you. You are in the wrong forum. This is for pilots who fly for pleasure. I am more than sure that flying with you would be anything but a pleasure you crusty old maggot.
I thought that I had read just about every sort of crap on this forum.
then I read obie's post.
I reckon the nearest you have come to a real aircraft is looking at it over the fence!
then I read obie's post.
I reckon the nearest you have come to a real aircraft is looking at it over the fence!
OUCH....
I bet you have a handicap of 27 and can sometimes play to it.
GB
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Can't sack 'em 'cause they're senile 'cause you have to be senile to take up this career anyway 
now why did I sit down at this computer again?
now why did I sit down at this computer again?
Bottums Up
I'm astounded at the accusations of greed and selfishness from people wanting to dictate how long some one holds a position, when for most of the advocates of such a position, their motivation is wanting a vacancy in the left seat.
The only person who should have input to retirement date/age, assuming competency, is the individual.
I might have to change my goal in life. To be the first centarian airline pilot.
And another thing, most reading & posting here will live to 70+. If your < 50' then that's 20+ years away and a lot can happen in those 20 years. It may eventuate that it doesn't suit you to retire as early as you advocate now, in the bloom of yoof.
And, Mrs C points out, the earlier us baby boomers retire, the greater tax burden on the subsequent generations.
The only person who should have input to retirement date/age, assuming competency, is the individual.
I might have to change my goal in life. To be the first centarian airline pilot.
And another thing, most reading & posting here will live to 70+. If your < 50' then that's 20+ years away and a lot can happen in those 20 years. It may eventuate that it doesn't suit you to retire as early as you advocate now, in the bloom of yoof.
And, Mrs C points out, the earlier us baby boomers retire, the greater tax burden on the subsequent generations.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 12th Aug 2010 at 04:03. Reason: After thoughts.
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Maybe we are looking at this all wrong?
Restricting new entrants into jet jobs until they have reached 35yrs and at least, say, 8000 hrs and therefore reached maturity, allowing pilots to continue unrestricted as long as their medical allows may be a better option?
If the industry could retain more experience, older in yrs and hrs pilots and slow down the race to the bottom by keeping the younger, I'll do it for nothing, mob in light aircraft until they gain more life and aviation experience, we may all be better off.
Restricting new entrants into jet jobs until they have reached 35yrs and at least, say, 8000 hrs and therefore reached maturity, allowing pilots to continue unrestricted as long as their medical allows may be a better option?
If the industry could retain more experience, older in yrs and hrs pilots and slow down the race to the bottom by keeping the younger, I'll do it for nothing, mob in light aircraft until they gain more life and aviation experience, we may all be better off.
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Gas Bags, old son!...
did you sit up all night researching for that response?...
I am impressed!
Handicap is 12 actually!
You're still not a pilot!
You're a goose!
did you sit up all night researching for that response?...
I am impressed!
Handicap is 12 actually!
You're still not a pilot!
You're a goose!
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As previously quoted - "
Having flown until "nearly 60 and now 60", I have not the slightest interest of:
(1) ever sleeping in a hotel again,
(2) do not ever want another wakeup call,
(3) ever put on a uniform again,
(4) never want to read another manual or a notam unless it involves a "lighty"
(5) 0500 sign ons, or even worse 2100 sign ons,
(6) ever eat another crew meal,
(7) spend the entire night at xxxxx ft,
(8) never lay my eyes on another simulater,
(9) never drive home feeling like s#$t (10) ever having to listen to the crap, sh%t and drivel from management who would not know a APU from a camels arse. AND
(10) ever every have to deal with the morons from CASA ever again.
Now I see my long suffering wife, we do nice things together, I eat well, I do the things I like to do,
AND AND
Never ever ever will I have to read the crap and deal with the drivel and deceit of a HR department ever ever again.
Love aviation for a while, life is much better!!
Having flown until "nearly 60 and now 60", I have not the slightest interest of:
(1) ever sleeping in a hotel again,
(2) do not ever want another wakeup call,
(3) ever put on a uniform again,
(4) never want to read another manual or a notam unless it involves a "lighty"
(5) 0500 sign ons, or even worse 2100 sign ons,
(6) ever eat another crew meal,
(7) spend the entire night at xxxxx ft,
(8) never lay my eyes on another simulater,
(9) never drive home feeling like s#$t (10) ever having to listen to the crap, sh%t and drivel from management who would not know a APU from a camels arse. AND
(10) ever every have to deal with the morons from CASA ever again.
Now I see my long suffering wife, we do nice things together, I eat well, I do the things I like to do,
AND AND
Never ever ever will I have to read the crap and deal with the drivel and deceit of a HR department ever ever again.
Love aviation for a while, life is much better!!
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There are plenty of guys out there who are now over 60 and who have had widebody commands for 20 plus years, and gained them with the anticipation of a compulsary retirement at 55 (or 58 or even 60) Lucky them.
I'm of the next generation...approaching 50, approaching 20,000 hours and still hundreds of seniority slots away from that widebody command. To have anything like the financial security in retirement of the current age 60 pluses, I'll probably HAVE to work until I'm 70.
If I had the money, I would retire now. I still enjoy my job, but I have a life and a whole bunch of things I want to do whilst I am still able. I actually feel sorry for the oldies who won't give it up because they don't have anything else to look forward to...there can't be any other reason....anyone who has done 20 plus years as a widebody captain with a carrier like Qantas or Air NZ has no-one to blame but themselves if they can't afford to retire.
I think it's selfish for them to stay on...especially given their retirement age expectation when they stated.
I'm of the next generation...approaching 50, approaching 20,000 hours and still hundreds of seniority slots away from that widebody command. To have anything like the financial security in retirement of the current age 60 pluses, I'll probably HAVE to work until I'm 70.
If I had the money, I would retire now. I still enjoy my job, but I have a life and a whole bunch of things I want to do whilst I am still able. I actually feel sorry for the oldies who won't give it up because they don't have anything else to look forward to...there can't be any other reason....anyone who has done 20 plus years as a widebody captain with a carrier like Qantas or Air NZ has no-one to blame but themselves if they can't afford to retire.
I think it's selfish for them to stay on...especially given their retirement age expectation when they stated.
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The reason why they can't afford to retire at 60 is the longhaul pilots disease..
..marry a hostie..give them a house
..marry another hostie..give them a house..
..do the "smart thing" and just live with a hostie..
..find out that the law still requires you to give them a house..
..contemplate retirement..find out that your ex wives own a quarter of your super each.
Haven't you heard the old boys in the crew room saying I'd love to retire but I don't want that @#$%& spending any more of my money!!
..marry a hostie..give them a house
..marry another hostie..give them a house..
..do the "smart thing" and just live with a hostie..
..find out that the law still requires you to give them a house..
..contemplate retirement..find out that your ex wives own a quarter of your super each.
Haven't you heard the old boys in the crew room saying I'd love to retire but I don't want that @#$%& spending any more of my money!!
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Air New Zealand pisses very close to the wind "accomodating" old gits in their late 60s/70s and allowing them to fly as widebody FO's.
From ICAO:
"2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday."
It is screwing every other pilot in the industry right down to Johnnie numb nuts doing his PPL busting his sack trying to get a job - any job.
Even worse these old fellas collect the New Zealand State Pension and clip a 200K plus package from the state owned airline. WTF?! HIDEOUS!
From ICAO:
"2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday."
It is screwing every other pilot in the industry right down to Johnnie numb nuts doing his PPL busting his sack trying to get a job - any job.
Even worse these old fellas collect the New Zealand State Pension and clip a 200K plus package from the state owned airline. WTF?! HIDEOUS!
Great post TG.
Capt Claret, I think what you should be saying is " don't make the mistake of staying with low payers for any longer than you must. The're just tempory stops up the greasy pole of aviation".
The guy who retires with the least amount of hours and the most money wins.
We just went through this cr@p at cx. The older guys who say the're doing heavy jet long haul for the love of flying are full of it.
Capt Claret, I think what you should be saying is " don't make the mistake of staying with low payers for any longer than you must. The're just tempory stops up the greasy pole of aviation".
The guy who retires with the least amount of hours and the most money wins.
We just went through this cr@p at cx. The older guys who say the're doing heavy jet long haul for the love of flying are full of it.
And all the guys bitching and moaning now, how hard done by they are ,will be the ones that will be the target of the pilots that haven't been born yet. Nothing changes. Heard the same record for the last thirty plus years.
I will get great satisfaction when I get past 60 that I am pissing these guys off. They are the ones that will drown in their own self interest.
The whole topic is a bloody bore.
I will get great satisfaction when I get past 60 that I am pissing these guys off. They are the ones that will drown in their own self interest.
The whole topic is a bloody bore.
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I'm of the next generation...approaching 50, approaching 20,000 hours and still hundreds of seniority slots away from that widebody command.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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The older guys who say they're doing heavy jet long haul for the love of flying are full of it.
Been looking at it from 5 feet away for the last 10 years. I've got a pretty good idea. You love flying, you fly regional. You love money and time off, you fly long haul.
Last edited by pill; 15th Aug 2010 at 04:58.