More Q400's for QF Link..
Sue, that is crap. The restrictions against regional pilots having career progression into mainline TAA/Australian (TN) were in place before QF bought TN and after the sale, AIPA tried to get management to change that policy - that is fact.
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Sorry Boeing, that is not quite correct, the case for integration with Australian was still before the court when Qantas took over Australian. The AFAP then had to start again with Qantas. In court AIPA supported Qantas in rejecting Eastern's application for integration. Water under the bridge now..
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A genuine question for anyone in AIPA in the know.
At the moment AIPA is trying to get a foot hold with membership in Eastern/Sunstate. What would AIPA think if in a couple of years the C-series jet was introduced on the east coast under the Sunstate AOC. As is the Q400's.
But then started to take a little more of say some of the mainlines east coast flying. Would they be happy for the Eastern/Sunstate pilots to fly the jets, or would they want the Jet jobs for there own who have jet time?
At the moment AIPA is trying to get a foot hold with membership in Eastern/Sunstate. What would AIPA think if in a couple of years the C-series jet was introduced on the east coast under the Sunstate AOC. As is the Q400's.
But then started to take a little more of say some of the mainlines east coast flying. Would they be happy for the Eastern/Sunstate pilots to fly the jets, or would they want the Jet jobs for there own who have jet time?
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Afraid I have to disagree with you on that point Going Boeing, as far as I can recall, the Qantas Regionals had a court case in progress with Australian/TAA, prior to this I think Air Queensland had already gained intergration into TAA and Airlines of NSW had gained intergration into Ansett.
So the precedent had been set, Qantas then purchased TAA, which became a fully owned subsidiary of Qantas, this is the excact same relationship the regionals had with TAA, a fully owned subsidiary.
At this time AIPA was only concerned about the jet side of things they formed the Y system seniority list, remember AIPA had a lot of clout at this time. (as most President's if they performed well ended up in Qantas management)
Qantas management wanted a smooth transition with the purchase of TAA ,so it wouldn't have been difficult for AIPA to insist the regionals become part of that intergration process for a W list instead of a Y list.
Believe me they provided no assistance in court or anywhere else for that matter to assist with the process.
Sorry but thats fact.
So the precedent had been set, Qantas then purchased TAA, which became a fully owned subsidiary of Qantas, this is the excact same relationship the regionals had with TAA, a fully owned subsidiary.
At this time AIPA was only concerned about the jet side of things they formed the Y system seniority list, remember AIPA had a lot of clout at this time. (as most President's if they performed well ended up in Qantas management)
Qantas management wanted a smooth transition with the purchase of TAA ,so it wouldn't have been difficult for AIPA to insist the regionals become part of that intergration process for a W list instead of a Y list.
Believe me they provided no assistance in court or anywhere else for that matter to assist with the process.
Sorry but thats fact.
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The other thing I find interesting is that Alan Joyce mentioned in the Australian News paper article that the,
"C - Series goes up into the 160 seat range, its got new engine technology and the seat costs on it are very attractive"
Has anybody heard what Qantas is replacing the 737-400's with yet?
I believe the phasing out of them has been delayed a bit.
Could be that the Regionals may be expanding big time.
"C - Series goes up into the 160 seat range, its got new engine technology and the seat costs on it are very attractive"
Has anybody heard what Qantas is replacing the 737-400's with yet?
I believe the phasing out of them has been delayed a bit.
Could be that the Regionals may be expanding big time.
I would have thought that in the west, the 737-800 could replace the 717's when they retire, given the capacity requirements. Apart from PBO and ZNE, the other 4 - PHE, KTA, KGI and BME all have a 737/717 mix, and at KTA, 80% of the services are operated by 737 anyway.
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the problem is, the jungle jets stacks up really well on paper too. Ask the VB execs if its working or not. The unknown is will the c series be a very expensive jungle jet? The airbus variants and 737s are known entities, their cost bases are low and spares inventories are many and region wide.For small fleets is the c series the right choice?
Most likely it will be, better the known devil
Most likely it will be, better the known devil
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AIPA
badboiblu
Some background: I have joined AIPA out of curiosity really. I have little recent involvement or background with the industry and AIPA/AFAP so I joined with the intent of getting a better understanding of how they work, what they think etc'. I have met various members of the COM as well as the Pres.
Others may disagree but from the discussions I have had, my impression of AIPA is that they are really considering the big picture view as the most important consideration. What is best for all pilots and indeed the industry? A big and difficult question to ask, but without at least attempting to develop this vision the future is surely continued division which I am sure we would all agree is the least desirable outcome.
Sure there's some history with AIPA but from what I can see there is a constant evolution going on as the organisation changes with the times. So to me it seems reasonable to suggest that past behaviour is in the past. Indeed the conversations I have had with these people suggest that this is true, and there have been several suggestions from these AIPA people that I have spoken to that it is only a matter of time before Qantaslink operate the C series or some other jet. So call me naive, but from what I can see they are not exclusively looking out for the mainline guys.
So while they have to play in multiple camps and defend the position of jetstar, mainline, Qlink and other pilots in seemingly conflicting circumstances, their view is always one of having to get the best overall outcome rather than simply looking out for one group. Of course this is easier said than done and it would be easy to criticise them for ultimately being ineffectual. To me though, what needs to be more effectively developed is that vision of what is the best overall outcome for all pilots.
Some background: I have joined AIPA out of curiosity really. I have little recent involvement or background with the industry and AIPA/AFAP so I joined with the intent of getting a better understanding of how they work, what they think etc'. I have met various members of the COM as well as the Pres.
Others may disagree but from the discussions I have had, my impression of AIPA is that they are really considering the big picture view as the most important consideration. What is best for all pilots and indeed the industry? A big and difficult question to ask, but without at least attempting to develop this vision the future is surely continued division which I am sure we would all agree is the least desirable outcome.
Sure there's some history with AIPA but from what I can see there is a constant evolution going on as the organisation changes with the times. So to me it seems reasonable to suggest that past behaviour is in the past. Indeed the conversations I have had with these people suggest that this is true, and there have been several suggestions from these AIPA people that I have spoken to that it is only a matter of time before Qantaslink operate the C series or some other jet. So call me naive, but from what I can see they are not exclusively looking out for the mainline guys.
So while they have to play in multiple camps and defend the position of jetstar, mainline, Qlink and other pilots in seemingly conflicting circumstances, their view is always one of having to get the best overall outcome rather than simply looking out for one group. Of course this is easier said than done and it would be easy to criticise them for ultimately being ineffectual. To me though, what needs to be more effectively developed is that vision of what is the best overall outcome for all pilots.
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Just curious as to everyones thoughts too, but Gen Anaesthetic do you think AIPA with it's however many thousand odd QF mainline members is going to cheer on the Sunnies/Easterns boys and girls on their c series jet if/when it gets deployed to operate some mainline routes because the seat costs are more attractive.
Sorry for the thread drift and any ignorance shown but anyone else out there with a bit more knowledge/insight than myself about how this might play out - I'd like to hear your thoughts on this!
Sorry for the thread drift and any ignorance shown but anyone else out there with a bit more knowledge/insight than myself about how this might play out - I'd like to hear your thoughts on this!
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Sunstate and/or Eastern well NEVER operate jet equipment. The clause was put into the EBA for 1 reason only; competitive tension.
Don't misunderstand what I am saying. QLINK will operate jets, they already do courtesy of the B717. They will replace the 71's down the track, but it won't be Sunstate or Eastern pilots that fly them though. QF has already spent $600 million on Q400's and just last week announced a further 7 frames, exercising their options costing a further $218 million.
There is no way that QF would pass the replacement of the 717 onto the turboprop operation. By doing so they would compromise the entire operation with very low experience levels on both types. One only has to look at the problems that were encountered with the introduction of the Q400, let alone then having all these people move on to a different type and subsequently leaving a massive void in the experience levels to fill the Q400 LHS slots. It will not happen.
The Narrow Body jet clause was set into the EBA to keep the competitive tension there; to keep everybody "honest" and to get the job done at the lowest possible price. The only people this will effect are the guys and gals in Cobham when it comes time to renew the contract. This clause was inserted by a very calculating management to put further downward pressure on the wages of the QLINK jet pilots, and will be ruthlessly exploited by both QF and Cobham management when the contract renewal comes around. Mark my words.
Don't misunderstand what I am saying. QLINK will operate jets, they already do courtesy of the B717. They will replace the 71's down the track, but it won't be Sunstate or Eastern pilots that fly them though. QF has already spent $600 million on Q400's and just last week announced a further 7 frames, exercising their options costing a further $218 million.
There is no way that QF would pass the replacement of the 717 onto the turboprop operation. By doing so they would compromise the entire operation with very low experience levels on both types. One only has to look at the problems that were encountered with the introduction of the Q400, let alone then having all these people move on to a different type and subsequently leaving a massive void in the experience levels to fill the Q400 LHS slots. It will not happen.
The Narrow Body jet clause was set into the EBA to keep the competitive tension there; to keep everybody "honest" and to get the job done at the lowest possible price. The only people this will effect are the guys and gals in Cobham when it comes time to renew the contract. This clause was inserted by a very calculating management to put further downward pressure on the wages of the QLINK jet pilots, and will be ruthlessly exploited by both QF and Cobham management when the contract renewal comes around. Mark my words.
Skynews,
Apart from high altitude aerodynamics, it does all happen down low, and you can easily get yourself into a high level of hurt in a jet (esp the new gliding types) in which it is harder to reduce/manage energy compared to a Dash 8, from what I can gather from my Prop-for-Speedbrake (D8/Bras) colleagues.
Definitely not difficult, but it is different.
Bring 'em on! 
Speed has little to do with it either.
below 10,0000' the speeds are mostly the same, and that's where it all happens.
it's a series of issues, weight, drag and system complexity probably the main ones.
below 10,0000' the speeds are mostly the same, and that's where it all happens.
it's a series of issues, weight, drag and system complexity probably the main ones.
Definitely not difficult, but it is different.
will be ruthlessly exploited by both QF and Cobham management when the contract renewal comes around.
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Bloody hell, since TBM started this thread on more 400’s for Qlink you people have drawn every possible conclusion from replacing 717’s and 737’s with 400’s or 320’s to setting up a Perth base with 400’s, whether there was career progression to mainline to pissing off Qantas pilots and testing AIPA by Sunstate or Eastern taking there flying with some plane that hasn’t even built yet. For f@#5ake this is just about 7 more Dash 8’s for QantasLink, which they will use to increase current capacity and maybe expand a few more routes that’s it! That is what they do and they do it very well. And with regards to the article in the Australian, Qantas is always keeping an eye on the latest evolving technologies. Who would know, though I guarantee in ten years time this whole aviation game in Australia will look a whole lot different to what it is today. Maybe a bit like this thread after 5 pages!
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RR
Of course you are absolutely right that the thousands of mainline members are not going to cheer on the handful of Qantaslink members who are also part of AIPA in getting jets. But the question remains, what can they or AIPA really do about this? We're not talking about a Jetconnect or Jetstar situation where there is perhaps some grey area around foreign aircrew operating as part of an essentially Australian airline. It's a genuine question, and I ask it also of you Toruk. It's not like AIPA are going to necessarily push for Q'link to operate jets - we all know that's highly unlikely. Rather it's a case of Qantas wanting to use Eastern/Sunstate because it is the most efficient operation in the Qantas Group (yes, even more efficient than Jet*). AIPA know this, and are attempting to play a realistic fight rather than belligerently fighting losing battles. Well that's my impression anyway...
For the record I don't care whether or not Q'link end up with jets. My enjoyment of work comes from the people I am surrounded by.
Additionally Normasars, I would suggest that there are enough pilots in Q'link who have demonstrated throughout the Q400 introduction that a newer and more exciting aircraft does not necessarily mean everyone is going to rush to get on it. In the more recent vacancy bids at Eastern there have been barely enough people apply to fill the spots and this relates largely - but not solely - to the perception that Q400 pilots are not paid enough for what they do. It's not just because there aren't enough people who qualify. In fact there are plenty of people who qualify. With the introduction of the Q400 fresh in a lot of minds, I don't think people are just going to go all starry eyed about a jet straight away. In fact even though there is all the talk about jets, a lot of people are so fed up with the Q'link way of doing things that they are nevertheless looking to move on.
Of course you are absolutely right that the thousands of mainline members are not going to cheer on the handful of Qantaslink members who are also part of AIPA in getting jets. But the question remains, what can they or AIPA really do about this? We're not talking about a Jetconnect or Jetstar situation where there is perhaps some grey area around foreign aircrew operating as part of an essentially Australian airline. It's a genuine question, and I ask it also of you Toruk. It's not like AIPA are going to necessarily push for Q'link to operate jets - we all know that's highly unlikely. Rather it's a case of Qantas wanting to use Eastern/Sunstate because it is the most efficient operation in the Qantas Group (yes, even more efficient than Jet*). AIPA know this, and are attempting to play a realistic fight rather than belligerently fighting losing battles. Well that's my impression anyway...
For the record I don't care whether or not Q'link end up with jets. My enjoyment of work comes from the people I am surrounded by.
Additionally Normasars, I would suggest that there are enough pilots in Q'link who have demonstrated throughout the Q400 introduction that a newer and more exciting aircraft does not necessarily mean everyone is going to rush to get on it. In the more recent vacancy bids at Eastern there have been barely enough people apply to fill the spots and this relates largely - but not solely - to the perception that Q400 pilots are not paid enough for what they do. It's not just because there aren't enough people who qualify. In fact there are plenty of people who qualify. With the introduction of the Q400 fresh in a lot of minds, I don't think people are just going to go all starry eyed about a jet straight away. In fact even though there is all the talk about jets, a lot of people are so fed up with the Q'link way of doing things that they are nevertheless looking to move on.
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Normasars:
Please provide factual detail on the problems to which you refer.
Kingswood.
One only has to look at the problems that were encountered with the introduction of the Q400
Kingswood.
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Kingswood,
I don't know how long you have been there, but I WAS there for 10+ years up until not that long ago.
Do you want me to elaborate on the issues that were encountered by the EAA Check Capts when they went to check the SS pilots on the 400. Massive failure rates in the sim and on the line. If you are new to the company then maybe you are still in the dark. However, if you have been around longer than 4-5 years then I am quite sure that I do not have to elaborate on this. Why do you think the Sunnies guys were so anti EAA when the EAA Checkies were failing Sunnies guys left, right and centre.
EAA Checkies were despised(and probably still are truth be known). Many Sunstate senior C&T guys departed the scene or just got out of T&C simply because in their words, "these guys are making it all too hard".
According to EAA Flt Ops management, there was SERIOUS standards issues within Sunstate. Not my words, theirs. do some spade work and dig a bit deeper. There were massive failure rates.
I don't know how long you have been there, but I WAS there for 10+ years up until not that long ago.
Do you want me to elaborate on the issues that were encountered by the EAA Check Capts when they went to check the SS pilots on the 400. Massive failure rates in the sim and on the line. If you are new to the company then maybe you are still in the dark. However, if you have been around longer than 4-5 years then I am quite sure that I do not have to elaborate on this. Why do you think the Sunnies guys were so anti EAA when the EAA Checkies were failing Sunnies guys left, right and centre.
EAA Checkies were despised(and probably still are truth be known). Many Sunstate senior C&T guys departed the scene or just got out of T&C simply because in their words, "these guys are making it all too hard".
According to EAA Flt Ops management, there was SERIOUS standards issues within Sunstate. Not my words, theirs. do some spade work and dig a bit deeper. There were massive failure rates.
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Well Done Norman
In one post you have lost any faith Sunnies Pilots have had in finally coming round to their eastern Masters. The post is on the sunnies crew room board.
I suggest from someone who was there through the 400 intro that you know not what you talk about. If you were there you would remember that the Eastern people wanted and took ownership of the 400 without even having any pilots endorsed on the machine forcing Sunnies C&T out. You may also wish to ask those who were trained by sunnies crew why they enjoyed the experience so much. Maybe it was actually the training they recieved. Im not going to inflame passions further especially whilst one seniority list is discussed but i suggest you look at the FOQA data and recent "incidents" to determine a better outlook on your comments. You are way off the mark.
I shudder if this mob were to ever introduce another new type.
In one post you have lost any faith Sunnies Pilots have had in finally coming round to their eastern Masters. The post is on the sunnies crew room board.
I suggest from someone who was there through the 400 intro that you know not what you talk about. If you were there you would remember that the Eastern people wanted and took ownership of the 400 without even having any pilots endorsed on the machine forcing Sunnies C&T out. You may also wish to ask those who were trained by sunnies crew why they enjoyed the experience so much. Maybe it was actually the training they recieved. Im not going to inflame passions further especially whilst one seniority list is discussed but i suggest you look at the FOQA data and recent "incidents" to determine a better outlook on your comments. You are way off the mark.
I shudder if this mob were to ever introduce another new type.