Merged: It's downhill between SYD & LHR
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Merged: It's downhill between SYD & LHR
Late night talk at Heathrow wasn't just about who will be Australia's PM, but what yesterday's announcemnt by the Australian Pilots Association means for BA, Qantas and affected Staff.
"On 9 June Jetstar announced it would be operating between Singapore Changi Airport direct to Melbourne and Auckland. Jetstar has decided to base 2 A330s in Singapore
"On 9 June Jetstar announced it would be operating between Singapore Changi Airport direct to Melbourne and Auckland. Jetstar has decided to base 2 A330s in Singapore
- These aircraft will be registered under an Australian AOC, carrying an Australian registration, so therefore should be overseen by the Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA). How CASA will be able to effectively control and have oversight of the maintenance of these aircraft is yet to be answered. What seems to be clear is that these jobs will be under Singaporean terms and conditions.
Last edited by LondonSloop; 24th Jun 2010 at 00:37.
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A380PIA - Thanks for NOTHING Team Bazza!! Jet* 330's in SIN
From AIPA insights
TEAM BAZZA
TM now has a major objection
I'll bet QANTAS / Oldmeadow are shaking in their boots. Why did they scuttle the Sale Act case which would have given the membership some leverage which we now all lack???
At least the A380 got their 6%
And they wonder why their AIPA survey isn't being responded to.... because the members know these incompetents have only managed to improved the T&C's of the Mothership....
A380IPA new motto
....On 9 June Jetstar announced it would be operating between Singapore Changi Airport direct to Melbourne and Auckland. Jetstar has decided to base 2 A330s in Singapore. These aircraft will be registered under an Australian AOC, carrying an Australian registration, so therefore should be overseen by the Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA). How CASA will be ableto effectively control and have oversight of the maintenance of these aircraft is yet to be answered. What seems to be clear is that these jobs will be under Singaporean terms and conditions. AIPA has a major objection to this arrangement....
TM now has a major objection I'll bet QANTAS / Oldmeadow are shaking in their boots. Why did they scuttle the Sale Act case which would have given the membership some leverage which we now all lack???At least the A380 got their 6%
And they wonder why their AIPA survey isn't being responded to.... because the members know these incompetents have only managed to improved the T&C's of the Mothership....
LET THEM EAT CAKE
NZ registered, qantas callsigns, qantas uniforms, less pay. This rot has to be stopped!!
AUS registered, Qantas uniform, sold as QF product, white rat on tail, less pay.
Icarus2001
The drivers on the 73 are on a different pay to the guys on the 767, to the 330, the 400 the 80... Different fleet, different pays. I dont agree with it but its the way it is.
The difference with QLink and Zitconit and others is that the QLink aircraft are crewed by Australian licenced pilots, not foreigners flying QF look-a-likes.
The drivers on the 73 are on a different pay to the guys on the 767, to the 330, the 400 the 80... Different fleet, different pays. I dont agree with it but its the way it is.
The difference with QLink and Zitconit and others is that the QLink aircraft are crewed by Australian licenced pilots, not foreigners flying QF look-a-likes.
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If the Yanks can see how it ought to be done-
· American Airlines has received yet another endorsement of its Flight Plan 2020. Key to its success, according to Airlinefinancials.com is massive change in labour-management relations. Without that, said Founder Bob Herbst, American will not be able to compete. American Airline's single largest obstacle to long-term success – profits and growth – is finding a solution which resolves their decades of contentious and on-going battles between labour and management.
Is there any reason why the airlines down under should continue to slug it out in the trenches?
Looks to me like it’s time those who lead this industry came up with something else other than cost cutting and offshoring.Is absolutely no reason why the employees of Qantas & Jetstar should suffer while the wheel is reinvented.
· American Airlines has received yet another endorsement of its Flight Plan 2020. Key to its success, according to Airlinefinancials.com is massive change in labour-management relations. Without that, said Founder Bob Herbst, American will not be able to compete. American Airline's single largest obstacle to long-term success – profits and growth – is finding a solution which resolves their decades of contentious and on-going battles between labour and management.
Is there any reason why the airlines down under should continue to slug it out in the trenches?
Looks to me like it’s time those who lead this industry came up with something else other than cost cutting and offshoring.Is absolutely no reason why the employees of Qantas & Jetstar should suffer while the wheel is reinvented.
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From the OP
Just semantics really. These ships will be part of the Australian fleet and its only a case of 2 airfames overnighting in SIN.
Only difference is JQ exploiting the lack of jurisdiction of AU labour laws over "SIN employees". No different to what they have done with JQ NZ and QF has with JetConnect.
The result of the AIPA court case for equal conditions for the Jetconnect pilots will determine all our futures.
Better hope AIPA wins.
These aircraft will be registered under an Australian AOC, carrying an Australian registration, so therefore should be overseen by the Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA). How CASA will be able to effectively control and have oversight of the maintenance of these aircraft is yet to be answered. What seems to be clear is that these jobs will be under Singaporean terms and conditions
Just semantics really. These ships will be part of the Australian fleet and its only a case of 2 airfames overnighting in SIN.
Only difference is JQ exploiting the lack of jurisdiction of AU labour laws over "SIN employees". No different to what they have done with JQ NZ and QF has with JetConnect.
The result of the AIPA court case for equal conditions for the Jetconnect pilots will determine all our futures.
Better hope AIPA wins.
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Jetstar will be soon employing all pilots through the JQNZ operation and then offering them LWOP to work for a new contract company run by the ex chief pilot based wherever they want.
Of course, the pay will be a lot less and NO SENIORITY LIST.
The plan is just to slot them into the rostering system on the 320 and 330 and go about business as usual.
How far does the piece of excrement who runs this airline want to go before the ****e really hits the fan!
Of course, the pay will be a lot less and NO SENIORITY LIST.
The plan is just to slot them into the rostering system on the 320 and 330 and go about business as usual.
How far does the piece of excrement who runs this airline want to go before the ****e really hits the fan!
Sow a thought you reap an act. Sow an act, you reap a habit. Sow a habit, you reap a character. Sow a character, you reap a consequence.
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A similar arrangement is in place today with Jetstar's PER-SIN service. The VH-registered aircraft arrives in SIN at dawn, does SIN-PEN-SIN and SIN-BKK-SIN (Jetstar Asia wetleases the aircraft from Jetstar Australia) then the aircraft does SIN-PER at 1735.
the SIN-MEL service will be operated as a JQ service, while the SIN-AKL service will be operated as a 3K service, since Australian carriers can't fly from SIN to NZ under the current SIN-NZ bilateral.
SIN has very attractive bilateral agreements with many countries, including unlimited 5th and 7th freedoms to and through the UK. I am sure the QF Group will exploit these rights to the fullest. They could fly SIN-STN 20 times a day if they so wished! And anywhere-in-the-UK to the USA 20 times a day too!
I wonder when countries will start to challenge the fact that Jetstar Asia is not a Singaporean carrier. Malaysia initially wanted to recognise Jetstar Asia as an Aussie carrier in the allocation of rights for SIN-KUL, but in the end after lobbying by the Singaporean authorities, they decided to recognise 3K as a Singaporean carrier.
As a Singaporean I am fine with Jetstar enhancing the connectivity through SIN as an airport, but if I were SIA I would be super pissed that the QF Group gets access to the rights that SIA has gained and fought for, for the past 3 decades. I am sure once 3K starts FCO and ATH, SQ will just withdraw!
the SIN-MEL service will be operated as a JQ service, while the SIN-AKL service will be operated as a 3K service, since Australian carriers can't fly from SIN to NZ under the current SIN-NZ bilateral.
SIN has very attractive bilateral agreements with many countries, including unlimited 5th and 7th freedoms to and through the UK. I am sure the QF Group will exploit these rights to the fullest. They could fly SIN-STN 20 times a day if they so wished! And anywhere-in-the-UK to the USA 20 times a day too!
I wonder when countries will start to challenge the fact that Jetstar Asia is not a Singaporean carrier. Malaysia initially wanted to recognise Jetstar Asia as an Aussie carrier in the allocation of rights for SIN-KUL, but in the end after lobbying by the Singaporean authorities, they decided to recognise 3K as a Singaporean carrier.
As a Singaporean I am fine with Jetstar enhancing the connectivity through SIN as an airport, but if I were SIA I would be super pissed that the QF Group gets access to the rights that SIA has gained and fought for, for the past 3 decades. I am sure once 3K starts FCO and ATH, SQ will just withdraw!
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Very insightful Dr P. The operating flexibility you describe is indeed ingenious.
Nonetheless, Jetstar Asia & Jetstar Australia are not one and the same. As things stand, the difference in % Australian ownership of each is both necessary and problematic, but without legislative change, it will become increasingly tricky to reconcile ownership with open skies opportunity.
Don’t know what bought about the massive change in labour-management relations @ AA, but do know that US aviation unions work hard to influence US aviation policy and necessity is the mother of invention.
Nonetheless, Jetstar Asia & Jetstar Australia are not one and the same. As things stand, the difference in % Australian ownership of each is both necessary and problematic, but without legislative change, it will become increasingly tricky to reconcile ownership with open skies opportunity.
Don’t know what bought about the massive change in labour-management relations @ AA, but do know that US aviation unions work hard to influence US aviation policy and necessity is the mother of invention.
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The chatter boxes up here have been all but silenced by the very public execution of your PM.
Talk of splitting off Jetstar and merging BA with Qantas has gone ice cold. Would seem your Welsh born new PM is not keen on policy that upsets the unions.
Is a shame really. Associated game changing legislation probably does have the ability to force massive change in the labour-management relationships of antipodean aviation.
Talk of splitting off Jetstar and merging BA with Qantas has gone ice cold. Would seem your Welsh born new PM is not keen on policy that upsets the unions.
Is a shame really. Associated game changing legislation probably does have the ability to force massive change in the labour-management relationships of antipodean aviation.
The real issue is whose AOC this will be operated from. You can't have VH rego aircraft operating on a foreign AOC.
So assuming that it is Jetstar Australia's AOC I don't see how they can run VH aircraft with foreign pilots. CASA has no jurisdiction over that check and training organisation if they are foreign licensed pilots. So therefore how do CASA regulate that AOC? If a GA outfit tried such a stunt CASA would have them in court tomorrow trying to shut them down. Since it is QF though they will just sit idly by and let it all happen and let the coroner sort the legal mess left by an accident.
So assuming that it is Jetstar Australia's AOC I don't see how they can run VH aircraft with foreign pilots. CASA has no jurisdiction over that check and training organisation if they are foreign licensed pilots. So therefore how do CASA regulate that AOC? If a GA outfit tried such a stunt CASA would have them in court tomorrow trying to shut them down. Since it is QF though they will just sit idly by and let it all happen and let the coroner sort the legal mess left by an accident.
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Neville
Just look at the NZ operation.
VH planes, pilots with Australian licences and medicals all under the Australian AOC.
Sounds like atleast some of the SIN operation will do likewise.
CASA does not care who pays the salaries.
Australian labour laws also do not address this rather big loophole, and thats the crux of the biscuit.
Just look at the NZ operation.
VH planes, pilots with Australian licences and medicals all under the Australian AOC.
Sounds like atleast some of the SIN operation will do likewise.
CASA does not care who pays the salaries.
Australian labour laws also do not address this rather big loophole, and thats the crux of the biscuit.
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Regulatory barriers aside, the core issue is that globalisation initiatives keep running into the same old, rigid doctrine cobbled together in an era of parochial labour relations.
Global initiatives by their very nature are tricky. They have to be pitched to foreign affiliates and considered in good faith by Australian Legislators, Regulators, Management & Unions.
All of which is unlikely to bear fruit unless management and labour are in it together. More of the same old same old will only get us sidelined and take aviation the same way shipping has gone.
Global initiatives by their very nature are tricky. They have to be pitched to foreign affiliates and considered in good faith by Australian Legislators, Regulators, Management & Unions.
All of which is unlikely to bear fruit unless management and labour are in it together. More of the same old same old will only get us sidelined and take aviation the same way shipping has gone.
More of the same old same old will only get us sidelined and take aviation the same way shipping has gone.
The difference with NZ is there are government agreements to operate RPT in each others country.
I assuming here they will be Australian licensed pilots, in VH rego aircraft on Singapore work contracts?
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nev:
"I assuming here they will be Australian licensed pilots, in VH rego aircraft on Singapore work contracts?"
I think the important precursor to the statement is the word ......'initially'.........!
No doubt in my mind that the original Joyce JQ franchise-like vision ("any aircraft, anywhere with any crew"*)....will be the norm in the future.
Open skies are not necessarily safer skies especially when the regulatory system is used primarily to rationalise costs, but it will as you correctly highlighted, take a few coroner's reports before the pollies and their flunkies get the message.
AT
* quote from AJ in BNE in the early days of JQ - goes well with his other quotes at the same time regarding legacy carriers' [QF?????] 'failures' to control the unions and make pilots work for their outragous pay packets........
"I assuming here they will be Australian licensed pilots, in VH rego aircraft on Singapore work contracts?"
I think the important precursor to the statement is the word ......'initially'.........!
No doubt in my mind that the original Joyce JQ franchise-like vision ("any aircraft, anywhere with any crew"*)....will be the norm in the future.
Open skies are not necessarily safer skies especially when the regulatory system is used primarily to rationalise costs, but it will as you correctly highlighted, take a few coroner's reports before the pollies and their flunkies get the message.
AT
* quote from AJ in BNE in the early days of JQ - goes well with his other quotes at the same time regarding legacy carriers' [QF?????] 'failures' to control the unions and make pilots work for their outragous pay packets........
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Now we can see why Management and those seen to be in bed with them were so keen to kill off the one impediment to this form of globalisation, namely the killing off, of the "Qantas Sale Act " case.
No wonder Buchanan is now crowing that Jetstar isn't Qantas and therefore isn't constrained by restrictions in the QF Sale Act with regard to the Australian content of the business and can therefore do as he pleases with regard to offshoring !
No wonder Buchanan is now crowing that Jetstar isn't Qantas and therefore isn't constrained by restrictions in the QF Sale Act with regard to the Australian content of the business and can therefore do as he pleases with regard to offshoring !
Looks like Ben Sandilands of Crikey fame agrees with you Blown n...
From his article 13th May
It should now be apparent that under President Woods stewardship at least AIPA was to put up a fight.
From his article 13th May
Jetstar as a Qantas subsidiary doesn’t face all of the Qantas Sale Act restrictions on foreign equity, or Australian domiciled control.
In Jetstar Qantas has a true, cross-border franchising strategy that makes a nonsense of the legislative restrictions on Qantas equity and business conduct in the longer run, since nothing in the Qantas Sale Act prevents it from making as much money as possible from offshore investments.
The president of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Captain Barry Jackson, says his immediate concern is for the loss of pilots and engineering jobs from Australia to Singapore, now and as the momentum of long-haul Jetstar flights grows.
