Taking on Emirates in their own background
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Taking on Emirates in their own Backyard
Emirates seems to be the only airline that is confident about the future and is not risk averse.
Qantas just sits back and cops it while complaining about the uneven playing field.
Get some hulls to start flying to Dubai and take these guys on.
The kangaroo route is losing money.Travellers are sick of Deathrow and having to backtrack to reach their European destinations.
Dubai is a fantastic launchpad to Europe...no Deathrow and no backtracking
Qantas used to be an innovator..now its just a shrinking whiner
Qantas just sits back and cops it while complaining about the uneven playing field.
Get some hulls to start flying to Dubai and take these guys on.
The kangaroo route is losing money.Travellers are sick of Deathrow and having to backtrack to reach their European destinations.
Dubai is a fantastic launchpad to Europe...no Deathrow and no backtracking
Qantas used to be an innovator..now its just a shrinking whiner
Last edited by Ka.Boom; 10th Jun 2010 at 07:24. Reason: oops!
Ka,
Not to be pedantic (OK, yes I am!!) but the phrase you're looking for is "Taking on Emirates in their own backYARD"
The porblem with what you are saying is, well, exactley what you are saying. Dubai is a great Hub, not a destination in itself. Something like 80% of EKs traffic through DXB is transit pax going on the different destinations.
There would be no point QF flying there unless it was tied up with other carriers going on to popular destinations in Europe, Africa and the Sub-Continent,.
Even then, you can't match the seamlessness and consistency of product of flying with one carrier through a hub which it basically owns. This has always been the strength of the likes of Singair and Thai, and EK has taken it to a new level.
Australia simply is where it is, and Qantas has the restraints that implys. It also has the advantage that it can reach some of it's biggest markets (notably North America) non-stop, and is thus able to shut fifth-freedom competition out on those routes.
If THAT ever changes, QF would be in REAL trouble!
Not to be pedantic (OK, yes I am!!) but the phrase you're looking for is "Taking on Emirates in their own backYARD"
The porblem with what you are saying is, well, exactley what you are saying. Dubai is a great Hub, not a destination in itself. Something like 80% of EKs traffic through DXB is transit pax going on the different destinations.
There would be no point QF flying there unless it was tied up with other carriers going on to popular destinations in Europe, Africa and the Sub-Continent,.
Even then, you can't match the seamlessness and consistency of product of flying with one carrier through a hub which it basically owns. This has always been the strength of the likes of Singair and Thai, and EK has taken it to a new level.
Australia simply is where it is, and Qantas has the restraints that implys. It also has the advantage that it can reach some of it's biggest markets (notably North America) non-stop, and is thus able to shut fifth-freedom competition out on those routes.
If THAT ever changes, QF would be in REAL trouble!
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slight thread drift
Wizofoz,
Your entire argument is not only correct, but exactly the reason Singapore, Emirates and any other carrier should not be given rights to fly across the Pacific.
Australia is simply where it is. We need some advantage over the rest of the world. Everything down here is all to hard for the rest of the world, UNLESS there is a dollar in for someone.
Back on topic. No matter where Qantas hub through, people going to Europe want to go to Europe. A stop in Dubai, Singapore, Bangkok is still a stop. Ka does have a point.
Your entire argument is not only correct, but exactly the reason Singapore, Emirates and any other carrier should not be given rights to fly across the Pacific.
Australia is simply where it is. We need some advantage over the rest of the world. Everything down here is all to hard for the rest of the world, UNLESS there is a dollar in for someone.
Back on topic. No matter where Qantas hub through, people going to Europe want to go to Europe. A stop in Dubai, Singapore, Bangkok is still a stop. Ka does have a point.
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correct,there
was a plan to go to abu dhabi a while ago but it looks like being shelved. there is no clear strategy at the moment for QF. They pin their hopes on 7 million FF, J* expansion and Qf using A380 to Lax & Lhr. sad story indeed!
A good post. QFs problems in my opinion are twofold. 1) The product has slipped, however the A380 is an excellent improvement however it only makes up a small part of the network at the moment. 2) Thanks to Dickson we never purchased the 777 and this has created a major problem in that Qf cant hub into Singapore from Brisbane and Perth with these aircraft and then send them on thinner routes to Europe with paxs that have come from Syd/Mel on the A380. I believe the failure to purchase the 777 will go down in history as one of the worst mistakes management have made in the airlines history. It will haunt Qf for many many years to come. I think they are now so far behind the power curve re competing with Emirates that they will never get in front of them. Witness the Tasman where they have basically capitulated and are competing with 737s against Emirates wide bodies. I know whose aircraft id be on if i was paying for the ticket.
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Abu Dhabi
What about operating the A380 as QF1 and QF2 through Abu Dhabi to LHR and return. QF already codeshare with Etihad and they have a fairly substantial network into Europe. This would at least put a QF presence in the Middle East with connections through to the UK and Europe. They could then leave Bangkok/Thailand to JQ.
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Solution
A380 into Dubai
Base 3 or 4 A330 in Dubai
Zurich Copenhagen and Paris all within reach
But wait...I forgot JetStar will be doing that.
Therein lies the problem...no growth for mainline while Jetstar is around
Base 3 or 4 A330 in Dubai
Zurich Copenhagen and Paris all within reach
But wait...I forgot JetStar will be doing that.
Therein lies the problem...no growth for mainline while Jetstar is around
Basically, exactly as Wizofoz says. Emirates offers CONNECTIONS, QF would need to fly into Dubai from SYD/MEL/PER/BNE and then tie up connecting flights with other airlines or operate those flights themselves.
They would have the problems of coordinating timetables, code shares, baggage transfers and revenue sharing just to start with.
Emirates can offer Birmingham UK to Perth with one stop via Dubai. QF would only attract passengers going to Australia where as EK can offer them Africa, Far East, Asia and South America, possibly North America if the price made up for the extra travel time. A seamless, easy way to travel with all the ease of staying on one carrier.
With modern aircraft it is possible to fly from Dubai to any point in the world non stop. With its central location it covers a huge chunk of the travel market.
QF don't have the aircraft or product to compete. B744s are too big for frequency on the thinner routes, and who wants to fly long range on a B767 ? EK enjoy considerable cost savings with Dubai based non unionized labour, and don't have to follow Australian workplace laws.ie they don't have to pay inflated wages to non performing personnel who can't be sacked.
Had QF bought B777s and operated a hub through Singapore it could have had a much more extensive European network and competed on the major city routes to Australia. EK now have a huge lead which will be difficult to catch even with the B787.
They would have the problems of coordinating timetables, code shares, baggage transfers and revenue sharing just to start with.
Emirates can offer Birmingham UK to Perth with one stop via Dubai. QF would only attract passengers going to Australia where as EK can offer them Africa, Far East, Asia and South America, possibly North America if the price made up for the extra travel time. A seamless, easy way to travel with all the ease of staying on one carrier.
With modern aircraft it is possible to fly from Dubai to any point in the world non stop. With its central location it covers a huge chunk of the travel market.
QF don't have the aircraft or product to compete. B744s are too big for frequency on the thinner routes, and who wants to fly long range on a B767 ? EK enjoy considerable cost savings with Dubai based non unionized labour, and don't have to follow Australian workplace laws.ie they don't have to pay inflated wages to non performing personnel who can't be sacked.
Had QF bought B777s and operated a hub through Singapore it could have had a much more extensive European network and competed on the major city routes to Australia. EK now have a huge lead which will be difficult to catch even with the B787.
Bugger Dubai, just go to twice a day with Etihad out of the ports the currently serve to Abu Dhabi. One Etihad flight, one QANATS flight. They codeshare already, and Etihad connections are pretty good to Europe. Could it be a possibility?
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B744s are too big for frequency on the thinner routes, and who wants to fly long range on a B767 ?
EK enjoy considerable cost savings with Dubai based non unionized labour, and don't have to follow Australian workplace laws.ie they don't have to pay inflated wages to non performing personnel who can't be sacked.
Originally Posted by The Green Goblin
Qantas and Emirates merger
However if you were to spin off a lot of your airline growth into an airline that sits somewhere between a full service carrier and a LCC, it would be as good as, if not better than what airlines like EK offer as a regional product.
That airline would not be subject to the Qantas Sales Act, and could be taken over.
Originally Posted by A380-800 driver
Not being biased (I am an Aussie), but EK has a much better product than QF
......Seemed to be okay for B707's back in the day.
You're welcome to come work here in Australia for free
In the latest Skytrax awards QF come in at number seven THE WORLD AIRLINE AWARDS™ - the Passenger's Choice all of the other airlines in the top ten, except Air New Zealand, compete directly on the Australia - Europe run.
Whilst QF did well in the premium economy category, BA didn't win a single award, are bleeding money and beset by strikes. QF could be in the same position in a few years time.
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Why get so worked up about it?
It's beyond your control.
........let it go.
It's beyond your control.
........let it go.
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but EK has a much better product than QF. In my opinion, EK offers a better level of service on board than QF
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You all seem to be forgetting the underlying issue with operating via the Middle East; it would only be viable if Qantas secured rights to fly onwards to Europe. Qantas needs daily services from the Middle East and beyond for the market to work. Flying only to the Middle East does not offer value for Qantas. The traffic would primarily be VFR.
The majority of traffic that actually goes to the Middle East is European traffic. It's not a destination, but simply a transit. People are not specifically going to the Middle East for holidays, they're simply transiting onwards to Europe.
Qantas cannot get traffic rights onwards to London on other preferred European cities.
That is the bottom line. The same applies to China. Qantas has been lobbying to allow travel to China and on to Europe, however has been denied access onwards.
Qantas needs access (and frequent) to London to enable onward European travel for customers, otherwise why would a customer fly Qantas via the Middle East to Europe when they can fly a Middle Eastern airline with a minimum potential two stops to get to a European city?
On Qantas you'd have to fly i.e. MEL/DXB (if an aircraft can make it)LHR/ATH for example or potential MEL/SIN/DXB/LHR/ATH to keep it all QF metal.
That is why Qantas code-shares with Etihad. But for Qantas to operate just to the Middle East - not viable. Also consider that the Middle East market is heavily saturated with capacity. The yields would be relatively poor.
The majority of traffic that actually goes to the Middle East is European traffic. It's not a destination, but simply a transit. People are not specifically going to the Middle East for holidays, they're simply transiting onwards to Europe.
Qantas cannot get traffic rights onwards to London on other preferred European cities.
That is the bottom line. The same applies to China. Qantas has been lobbying to allow travel to China and on to Europe, however has been denied access onwards.
Qantas needs access (and frequent) to London to enable onward European travel for customers, otherwise why would a customer fly Qantas via the Middle East to Europe when they can fly a Middle Eastern airline with a minimum potential two stops to get to a European city?
On Qantas you'd have to fly i.e. MEL/DXB (if an aircraft can make it)LHR/ATH for example or potential MEL/SIN/DXB/LHR/ATH to keep it all QF metal.
That is why Qantas code-shares with Etihad. But for Qantas to operate just to the Middle East - not viable. Also consider that the Middle East market is heavily saturated with capacity. The yields would be relatively poor.
But for Qantas to operate just to the Middle East - not viable. Also consider that the Middle East market is heavily saturated with capacity