Jetstar Hiring.... Cadets?!?!
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Experience
It’s funny how those that denigrate the value of experience are generally those that don’t have any.
The whole ‘experience’ thing is not about skill comparisons of the physical differences between flying an Airbus and landing a 207 on a goat track lit by car headlights. It’s not about the relevance of bringing the physical skills of one across to the other either. It’s about developing the mind set and thought processes to go about a task, analyse risks, make sound decisions and not paint yourself into a corner. This is what a GA or Military Pilot brings with them when they start on day one with an Airline. They still have to learn a new job but they have base survival skills already there that can be applied. This can’t be taught at a flying school but is acquired, often by scaring yourself and then analysing the event afterwards.
Ten years or so down the track and the differences between all candidates becomes less and less and there is absolutely no reason why a Cadet with the right attitude won’t be as good an Airline Pilot as his/her counterpart.
I agree with 404 Titan that the reason Jetstar's Cadetship has been set up is reduce Terms and Conditions to a new low, particularly when other pilots in the same group company are being put on forced leave, demoted and taking reduced flying lines to avoid retrenchment. And as for an earlier poster that mentioned ‘impending pilot shortage’. That old chestnut has been bandied around for the last 20+ years that I’ve been flying(And I bet long before then!) and other than a tiny little blip a couple of years back it still hasn’t eventuated and I doubt ever will. (Paradoxically it allowed Jetstar to recruit foreign Direct Entry Captains on 457 Visas and further divide the pilot community to lower conditions.)
For those of you looking at embarking on a flying career I’d recommend the following website setup by an American Pilot. Whilst things are done slightly different in The States it does seem we tend to follow and I think it provides a pretty good insight to the direction the industry is taking here.
The Truth About the Profession - Home
The whole ‘experience’ thing is not about skill comparisons of the physical differences between flying an Airbus and landing a 207 on a goat track lit by car headlights. It’s not about the relevance of bringing the physical skills of one across to the other either. It’s about developing the mind set and thought processes to go about a task, analyse risks, make sound decisions and not paint yourself into a corner. This is what a GA or Military Pilot brings with them when they start on day one with an Airline. They still have to learn a new job but they have base survival skills already there that can be applied. This can’t be taught at a flying school but is acquired, often by scaring yourself and then analysing the event afterwards.
Ten years or so down the track and the differences between all candidates becomes less and less and there is absolutely no reason why a Cadet with the right attitude won’t be as good an Airline Pilot as his/her counterpart.
I agree with 404 Titan that the reason Jetstar's Cadetship has been set up is reduce Terms and Conditions to a new low, particularly when other pilots in the same group company are being put on forced leave, demoted and taking reduced flying lines to avoid retrenchment. And as for an earlier poster that mentioned ‘impending pilot shortage’. That old chestnut has been bandied around for the last 20+ years that I’ve been flying(And I bet long before then!) and other than a tiny little blip a couple of years back it still hasn’t eventuated and I doubt ever will. (Paradoxically it allowed Jetstar to recruit foreign Direct Entry Captains on 457 Visas and further divide the pilot community to lower conditions.)
For those of you looking at embarking on a flying career I’d recommend the following website setup by an American Pilot. Whilst things are done slightly different in The States it does seem we tend to follow and I think it provides a pretty good insight to the direction the industry is taking here.
The Truth About the Profession - Home
Last edited by Nuthinondaclock; 4th Jun 2010 at 05:00.
Nuthinondoclock 
Bang on.
It takes a long time and a lot of supervision before they are cleared. Also, Mil aircrew are taught to fly in three dimensions, with aerobatics, formation, LL and lots of command decisions and planning early in their training. The experience is similar to that gained by GA pilots during their training and early career. I don't fly RPT but I am a nervous passenger when sitting in the back of an airliner and would prefer GA/Mil experience up the front when I fly.
Good luck to the cadets. It is a good oportunity if you only want to fly an airliner and have the cash. But I have only flown Jetstar once, and never will again.
Bang on.
Whilst I don't have first hand experience of the military system, I'd also suggest that the supervision that the Bloggs is under when they get type rated and into a SQN is far more stringent than a Bloggs who has been cleared to the line in the RHS of an RPT jet.
Good luck to the cadets. It is a good oportunity if you only want to fly an airliner and have the cash. But I have only flown Jetstar once, and never will again.
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Nuthinondaclock +1000
The Truth About the Profession
The Truth About the Profession
The Truth About the Profession
Every single person thinking of a pilot cadetship should read every single word of that site.
When you have done that, then consider if the airline industry is for you.
The design of these cadetship are to in-debt, you become an indentured serf. This is a deal with the devil if taken on credit.
Unless you can afford to buy your way out before you start the course, you will be trapped, with no escape, a plaything of the airline.
You only need to look at the financial crisis, bailouts & (ongoing) bonuses situation to see how indebtedness has been used as a tool to exploit the weak to favour the strong. Trust me you will be the weak.
You may also want to check the Easyjet cadet experience here on PPRuNE & how many cadets face bankruptcy as a result of their training expenses. Easyjet Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract, and the follow-up CTC Wings Cadets part 2
If you then decide the industry is for you, please, never complain & tell us you weren't warned.
The Truth About the Profession
The Truth About the Profession
The Truth About the Profession
Every single person thinking of a pilot cadetship should read every single word of that site.
When you have done that, then consider if the airline industry is for you.
The design of these cadetship are to in-debt, you become an indentured serf. This is a deal with the devil if taken on credit.
Unless you can afford to buy your way out before you start the course, you will be trapped, with no escape, a plaything of the airline.
You only need to look at the financial crisis, bailouts & (ongoing) bonuses situation to see how indebtedness has been used as a tool to exploit the weak to favour the strong. Trust me you will be the weak.
You may also want to check the Easyjet cadet experience here on PPRuNE & how many cadets face bankruptcy as a result of their training expenses. Easyjet Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract, and the follow-up CTC Wings Cadets part 2
If you then decide the industry is for you, please, never complain & tell us you weren't warned.
Last edited by breakfastburrito; 4th Jun 2010 at 02:31.
I don't fly RPT but I am a nervous passenger when sitting in the back of an airliner and would prefer GA/Mil experience up the front when I fly.
But I have only flown Jetstar once, and never will again.
Also, Mil aircrew are taught to fly in three dimensions, with aerobatics, formation, LL and lots of command decisions and planning early in their training.
M
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I'm a cadet
I'm a cadet and I can see why cadets make GA pilots angry.
The way I see it is that there is a sense of entitlement because you've slogged it out in the bush and now its your turn to fly big jets. These cadets come in "off the street" and are living the dream. Through my course there were cadets that were some of the smartest people I know that can fly and others that failed multiple CPL exams and flying tests.
Good Luck to both the cadets and GA pilots, there is nothing we can do to stop this, so lets embrace it and allow everyone a fair chance to enjoy the profession that I love so much.
Peace
The way I see it is that there is a sense of entitlement because you've slogged it out in the bush and now its your turn to fly big jets. These cadets come in "off the street" and are living the dream. Through my course there were cadets that were some of the smartest people I know that can fly and others that failed multiple CPL exams and flying tests.
Good Luck to both the cadets and GA pilots, there is nothing we can do to stop this, so lets embrace it and allow everyone a fair chance to enjoy the profession that I love so much.
Peace
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I think many have lost the point with the "Mil better than GA, better than Cadet" argument.
A well trained Cadet course followed by 5 years in GA and THEN 5 years in the military would be a better training course to be my F/O or [S/O]
The issue is that all the airlines are starting cadet courses because there are not enough suitable applicants from both the military and GA.
The reason is that there are not enough trainees, because THEY WILL NOT PAY ENOUGH!!!!!!
While we are accepting the crap that these airlines dish out this will not change.
Once upon a time Pilots would accept crap on the way up to an Airline job [holy grail] because there was that Qantas,Ansett or TAA job up there.
Now, starting perhaps with Virgin and Impulse and continued with Jetstar and Tiger the jet jobs are more like "GA in Jets" and there is no moving up the food chain [QF all that is left and not growing] WE now have a situation where there is no future in Airlines in Australia so the pricks need to have cadet courses to supply them with low paid labour!
If conditions improved sufficiently they would not NEED cadet courses.
How to achieve this? - I don't know.
A well trained Cadet course followed by 5 years in GA and THEN 5 years in the military would be a better training course to be my F/O or [S/O]
The issue is that all the airlines are starting cadet courses because there are not enough suitable applicants from both the military and GA.
The reason is that there are not enough trainees, because THEY WILL NOT PAY ENOUGH!!!!!!
While we are accepting the crap that these airlines dish out this will not change.
Once upon a time Pilots would accept crap on the way up to an Airline job [holy grail] because there was that Qantas,Ansett or TAA job up there.
Now, starting perhaps with Virgin and Impulse and continued with Jetstar and Tiger the jet jobs are more like "GA in Jets" and there is no moving up the food chain [QF all that is left and not growing] WE now have a situation where there is no future in Airlines in Australia so the pricks need to have cadet courses to supply them with low paid labour!
If conditions improved sufficiently they would not NEED cadet courses.
How to achieve this? - I don't know.
Cadets also do aerobatics, and are encouraged to form command decision thinking processes early too. When the VAST majority of military pilots graduate from their initial training in Pearce, how many do you think continue with their aerobatics? Yep, those P3 & Herc pilots must be having a ball..... They end up the same as a cadet - been there done that, but now I'm doing this.
). I realise there are useless pilots on both sides, however, when it comes to mindset, decision making and raw handling skills I believe an experienced GA or mil pilot would outperform a cadet.You sound a little bitter. I take it you are not ex-mil.
I don't fly Jetstar for a number of reasons: Work providers are Qantas and Strategic, Jetstar passenger cabins are full of bogans, Jetstar has low airfares because they charge for job interviews and drive wages down.
Hardly ignorant big fella, just don't easily trust strangers with my life, especially inexperienced ones. When one-two-go crashed in Thailand a couple of years ago, I remember seeing footage of the burning jet off to the side of the runway. As it burned, a surviving Scottish passenger passed in front of the camera and said "I would fly with them again, definately". With this sort of travelling public out there, I'm am sure it will be a success.
I have nothing against those who apply, not at all, but I have reservations.
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Successful cadets will have done in 100 weeks, what GA drivers will have taken twice that long to do...
Also, someone who has been flying commercially for 7+ years is probably a Saab captain or similar, not a 210 bush pilot. This brings with it years of CRM experience, decision making experience, weather flying experience, etc, etc. You learn the theory in the classroom, but you can only become good at it by doing it over and over and learning some tough lessons along the way.
I was told when I got my CPL that it was a ticket to START learning. Looking back, how true that was. You don't know what you don't know. Why do you think Qantas send their cadets to GA for two years before employing them as cruise pilots, where they will spend more years watching and learning before being put in the seat?
Another thought is the cockpit gradient. Australia is not used to such a steep gradient. There have been many accidents overseas where the low time FO literally watches the Captain crash the aircraft.
I would encourage anyone coming through the scheme, but I just think it's a real shame that the position is being devalued (i.e. We will not increase conditions to attract and retain good First Officers, we will just lower the bar to entry and increase supply thereby reducing conditions). It makes the industry increasingly less attractive to "bright" people.
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because you've slogged it out in the bush and now its your turn to fly big jets
Give me a new hire FO with 2,000 hours GA hauling clapped-out Apaches and trashed 421s around the backblocks of the never-never anyday. The flying skills, safety-awareness, atitude and airmanship are all there, and in so having naturaly enhances CRM to its fullest (both on the same page).
Last edited by Slasher; 4th Jun 2010 at 03:18.
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Experience
At the end of the day, cadets DO NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE! 
Sitting on 11 type ratings, a hard earned B-CAT and both aerobatic and taildragger time I would like to think I have a rough idea about this flying stuff.... but a cadet with 400 hours in a A320!?!??!?!?
It has been said before, experience. Reading Neil Williams aerobatic book at present and he says people doing aerobatics need to give it time. TIME IS EXPERIENCE.
18 months isn't a long time
Sitting on 11 type ratings, a hard earned B-CAT and both aerobatic and taildragger time I would like to think I have a rough idea about this flying stuff.... but a cadet with 400 hours in a A320!?!??!?!?
It has been said before, experience. Reading Neil Williams aerobatic book at present and he says people doing aerobatics need to give it time. TIME IS EXPERIENCE.
18 months isn't a long time
bmarly wrote
Its that sort of attitude and mindset that is füçk1n9 up the industry and everyone elses terms and conditions. The industry has always raped young, dedicated pilots by making them pay for training and offering low wages in return for that dream job in the end. They slog it out up north, on a station or in some hell hole 3rd word country to get the experience and have a crack at a regional with less pay than GA for the experience and hours for the next step. Now the airlines are jumping on the bandwagon following GA's lead because idiots like you with that attitude are willing to bypass the traditional system, pay more for training, get paid less in return just so you can wear a uniform an brag to your mates you fly a jet.
The one thing you don't think about is the life experiece you miss out on by not working in a crappy place with horrible pay. Everybody is in the same boat and helping eachother get by, all chipping in for a car, groceries and cases of beer. Thats real CRM building right there.
The cadets I fly with are borng as bat sh1t, don't go out usually because they have no personalitiy and also through lack of money. But hey lets embrace it.
well said. 
Good Luck to both the cadets and GA pilots, there is nothing we can do to stop this, so lets embrace it and allow everyone a fair chance to enjoy the profession that I love so much.
The one thing you don't think about is the life experiece you miss out on by not working in a crappy place with horrible pay. Everybody is in the same boat and helping eachother get by, all chipping in for a car, groceries and cases of beer. Thats real CRM building right there.
The cadets I fly with are borng as bat sh1t, don't go out usually because they have no personalitiy and also through lack of money. But hey lets embrace it.
I would encourage anyone coming through the scheme, but I just think it's a real shame that the position is being devalued (i.e. We will not increase conditions to attract and retain good First Officers, we will just lower the bar to entry and increase supply thereby reducing conditions). It makes the industry increasingly less attractive to "bright" people.
You sound a little bitter. I take it you are not ex-mil
I'm just pointing out assumptions/statements that are incorrect.
Your argument
I don't fly Jetstar for a number of reasons: Work providers are Qantas and Strategic, Jetstar passenger cabins are full of bogans, Jetstar has low airfares because they charge for job interviews and drive wages down.
But I have only flown Jetstar once, and never will again.
M
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so lets embrace it and allow everyone a fair chance to enjoy the profession that I love so much.
After me and a few consoling mates met up with the experienced guy at the pub that evening, who should walk in but the little pr!ck! The snot-nose brat gave an uncomfortable look at us since he was heaviley outnumbered. The experienced guy walked up and politely asked him to leave, because this was a PILOT bar.
He said he wouldnt leave and that he had every right to drink here under the law.
The kid had no idea about GA drinking rules (or the fact the local cops were mates of ours) so he received a Panawonnica punch by the experienced guy and the
'd out brat rapidley picked up the message and left. As far as we know he went crying and blubbering back South a little more experienced ....And our deserving mate got his job back!
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Slasher, you are a tw*t.
Well done on ganging up on a young in-experienced colleague
you are a big man
Slasher,
You talk about CRM, yet you appear to have a bit of a superiority complex. Great for CRM. And safety. Im pretty sure most of the CRM texts these days will suggest a link between a superiority complex, unnecessary risk taking, and smoking holes in the ground
Your 'feel good' story about your extensive 'experience'
was a real treat. After that your mate really 'deserved' his job.
Lets face it folks, as has been said, it doesnt matter what background you have, you're all still a chance of being a knob in someone elses eyes. This whole arrangement stinks, but trying the age old argument of how 'GA and MIL are better than cadets' on here really does nothing.
You talk about CRM, yet you appear to have a bit of a superiority complex. Great for CRM. And safety. Im pretty sure most of the CRM texts these days will suggest a link between a superiority complex, unnecessary risk taking, and smoking holes in the ground
Your 'feel good' story about your extensive 'experience'
was a real treat. After that your mate really 'deserved' his job. Lets face it folks, as has been said, it doesnt matter what background you have, you're all still a chance of being a knob in someone elses eyes. This whole arrangement stinks, but trying the age old
argument of how 'GA and MIL are better than cadets' on here really does nothing.
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If JQ intends to send its cadets bushbashing it is acceptable, if most of their flying is sim time it is not. Simple. Airmanship cannot be learnt in a sim, pilots have to frighten the sh%t out of themselves on more than one occasion, during their training, to become good pilots, if for no other reason to see for themselves how they handle a dicey situation. A sim does not put you into hospital or even worse into a box if you fail, perhaps you might think this is old school, and perhaps it is, but a aeroplane is still a aeroplane no matter how many bells and whistles, and if you want good pilots, (not systems managers) then they must do the hard yards for all concerned.