Jetstar Hiring.... Cadets?!?!
At least the bloke on the far left looks like a realist.
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Does anyone find this ironic that the entire airline was founded on a Pay-For-Training program and that those who paid to work there, now find themselves threatened by others that would "dare" pay for a job?!!
Where's Mr Buzzy and all of them who saw it as an "investment"?
We all knew this would happen, and the guys who paid for a type rating in the first place facilitated this.
Where's Mr Buzzy and all of them who saw it as an "investment"?
We all knew this would happen, and the guys who paid for a type rating in the first place facilitated this.
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Listen, I'm happy to be corrected here by those that know better:
I can see why people are pretty pissed off about the thin end of the wedge with pay and conditions getting affected by new cadets at lower wages etc.
It seems to me there's a lot of malice directed towards people taking who take a cadet program? Is it really deserved?
It is airline management that presents these contracts. Realistically, how are you going to get every aspiring pilot together bargain for better conditions/wages etc.? What are they actually going to do?
Maybe some misdirected management anger is spilling over at these cadet "scabs"?
Or maybe I'm off the mark?
I can see why people are pretty pissed off about the thin end of the wedge with pay and conditions getting affected by new cadets at lower wages etc.
It seems to me there's a lot of malice directed towards people taking who take a cadet program? Is it really deserved?
It is airline management that presents these contracts. Realistically, how are you going to get every aspiring pilot together bargain for better conditions/wages etc.? What are they actually going to do?
Maybe some misdirected management anger is spilling over at these cadet "scabs"?
Or maybe I'm off the mark?
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If this is really selling yourself and contributing to the demise of this industry, do you also think that the REX cadetship is also the same?
REX is a lower start and does't cost as much, do you still think it is just as 'bad' as the j* one?
REX is a lower start and does't cost as much, do you still think it is just as 'bad' as the j* one?
Originally Posted by Breakfast Burrito
His view was that flying an airliner was a slightly more sophisticated train driver style job and said, bluntly, that some train drivers now earned more than pilots, which was as it should be in his view, especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution.
First year as a trainee train driver, $45K, second year $55K, third year $95K, and now I'm going into a company that pays $140K for working only 6 months of the year driving trains, 2 weeks on-2 weeks off. I'm going to have to learn how to fish for my off fortnights.
Why anyone would want to spend megabucks to get their CPL and a bunch of other tickets, to then get a job that pays bugger all out the back of bumphuck for upto 5 years is beyond me.
Flying is meant to be fun, and while I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from those who have done the hard yards, and are driving the heavy metal, I wouldn't recommend anyone pursue a career in flying in this day and age anymore than I would recommend a career in the military. I've got the opportunity and the $$ to do so and I can't see the sense in it. There are jobs out there with half the stress, hours to suit and that pay much more than a lot of airline jobs, thus allowing you to fly on your terms, and to me at least, that's what its' all about.
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Bruce buchanen is seriously biggining to be the boil on the arse of this industry! The one airline that is leading the charge to screw over pilots T&C's is J* led by buchanen. He is sitting there laughing his tits off with tears rolling down his face wondering how he got this all through the local authorities!!
Surely it's time to start playing buchanen and his management team at his own game??!! Stop bloody whinging on here and let's do something about this!
Go to your unions and ask the question how they are getting away with letting a 300hour pilot fly an A320?? Once it has been put to government on paper as a safety issue then it is set in stone. If there is ever an accident or incident involving a low timed FO from this "cadet scheme" then the minister that approved it is for the high jump and the general public will want answers. The US has just upped their minimum hours for right hand seat of RPT operation haven't they? What the US does, most follow!!
This "cadet scheme" is plain and simple revenue generating and nothing more. Accounting at it's best. There is no need for it as there is no shortage in Australia! The airlines have been selling this story of pending pilot shortage for years and now they have their way!
Get your unions to set minimum hour requirements for FO's and Capt's on aircraft over a certain weight cat and protect it!
Surely it's time to start playing buchanen and his management team at his own game??!! Stop bloody whinging on here and let's do something about this!
Go to your unions and ask the question how they are getting away with letting a 300hour pilot fly an A320?? Once it has been put to government on paper as a safety issue then it is set in stone. If there is ever an accident or incident involving a low timed FO from this "cadet scheme" then the minister that approved it is for the high jump and the general public will want answers. The US has just upped their minimum hours for right hand seat of RPT operation haven't they? What the US does, most follow!!
This "cadet scheme" is plain and simple revenue generating and nothing more. Accounting at it's best. There is no need for it as there is no shortage in Australia! The airlines have been selling this story of pending pilot shortage for years and now they have their way!
Get your unions to set minimum hour requirements for FO's and Capt's on aircraft over a certain weight cat and protect it!
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You need to be an aviation 'insider' to understand how this scheme really works. Let put ourselves in the shoes of a potential cadet. Go to the j* cadet info. Did you get confused looking at that site? I did.
We have no experience, so the course looks like its going to cost AUD$172,000 for the Oxford Moorabbin course. Hidden right there in plain sight, is the fine print. If you know what to look for, you will notice the the additional 'board' charge of AUD $19,500. Then the FEE-HELP has a 20% fee, an additional $17012. So, now the base cost is AUD $208,512, from Ab Initio to line FO.
So our financially fearless cadet is checked to line, as a 'junior FO' on 55K. How long will they be a junior FO? Well, an insider knows that that it takes 1500 hours 'aeronautical experience' to gain an ATPL & become a real FO. 1500 hour mean 1500 hours in the jet right?
Not so fast. Buried in the CAR's is a 50% experience discount when not acting as ICUS (In Command Under Supervision) ie PF (pilot Flying). Theoretically every second leg is PF, therefore we end up with a real world multiplier ratio of 0.75 AeroExperience:Hours.
- are you still with me? Hang on, where not there yet. During initial training a cadet will come out with around 200 Aero experience, so will need another 1300 hours @0.75. So we get around 1733 hours on line doing the supposedly doing the job of a Captain (remember what ICUS stands for) for half the time.
How many hours will we fly a year? about 800~900. Therefore, lets not split hairs and call it two years on 55K.
Meanwhile j* are taking their cut of your bond repaymentr. In addition the guvment is charging you the FEE-HELP repayment through the tax system.
ecovictim, did you know all that? The architects of this scheme certainly did. If you did, I apologise for insulting your intelligence. It's not as simple as it looks is it, and we haven't even examined the fine print on the actual cadetship agreement. Assymetric knowledge is a very powerful tool.
Do I think its a scam? The best con is the one where the mark isn't even aware of the manipulation.
So in essence, the cadet cannot save enough to "buy out" the 6 year bond ( I couldn't work out how much the bond actually was). Therefore our cadet is at the mercy of their employer. Zero industrial power, promotion & basing for those that "play the game". In short, total management prerogative. This exerts total control (Pwned) of any individual with a significant bond remaining.
No job means that the balance of the bond would most likely to be paid out. What happens if there is a significant downturn in the industry (again!)? In the UK the CTC cadets were threatened with bankruptcy as a result of this "credit" scheme when they didn't gain employment.
As for the REX scheme, it is even worse, check out this link
We have no experience, so the course looks like its going to cost AUD$172,000 for the Oxford Moorabbin course. Hidden right there in plain sight, is the fine print. If you know what to look for, you will notice the the additional 'board' charge of AUD $19,500. Then the FEE-HELP has a 20% fee, an additional $17012. So, now the base cost is AUD $208,512, from Ab Initio to line FO.
So our financially fearless cadet is checked to line, as a 'junior FO' on 55K. How long will they be a junior FO? Well, an insider knows that that it takes 1500 hours 'aeronautical experience' to gain an ATPL & become a real FO. 1500 hour mean 1500 hours in the jet right?
Not so fast. Buried in the CAR's is a 50% experience discount when not acting as ICUS (In Command Under Supervision) ie PF (pilot Flying). Theoretically every second leg is PF, therefore we end up with a real world multiplier ratio of 0.75 AeroExperience:Hours.
- are you still with me? Hang on, where not there yet. During initial training a cadet will come out with around 200 Aero experience, so will need another 1300 hours @0.75. So we get around 1733 hours on line doing the supposedly doing the job of a Captain (remember what ICUS stands for) for half the time.
How many hours will we fly a year? about 800~900. Therefore, lets not split hairs and call it two years on 55K.
Meanwhile j* are taking their cut of your bond repaymentr. In addition the guvment is charging you the FEE-HELP repayment through the tax system.
ecovictim, did you know all that? The architects of this scheme certainly did. If you did, I apologise for insulting your intelligence. It's not as simple as it looks is it, and we haven't even examined the fine print on the actual cadetship agreement. Assymetric knowledge is a very powerful tool.
Do I think its a scam? The best con is the one where the mark isn't even aware of the manipulation.
So in essence, the cadet cannot save enough to "buy out" the 6 year bond ( I couldn't work out how much the bond actually was). Therefore our cadet is at the mercy of their employer. Zero industrial power, promotion & basing for those that "play the game". In short, total management prerogative. This exerts total control (Pwned) of any individual with a significant bond remaining.
No job means that the balance of the bond would most likely to be paid out. What happens if there is a significant downturn in the industry (again!)? In the UK the CTC cadets were threatened with bankruptcy as a result of this "credit" scheme when they didn't gain employment.
As for the REX scheme, it is even worse, check out this link
Whispering "T" Jet
Fruet Mich
What unions would they be and how will they achieve
What unions would they be and how will they achieve
.......setting minimum hour requirements for FO's and Capt's on aircraft over a certain weight cat and protect it!
Originally Posted by Fruet Mich
Go to your unions and ask the question how they are getting away with letting a 300hour pilot fly an A320?? Once it has been put to government on paper as a safety issue then it is set in stone.
Except their cadets end up in the RHS of something a little bigger like the 777 or A340.
What's Jetstar's rationale behind the cadetship anyway? Are they saying the hours you do in GA on clapped out C210 and PA31s have little relevance to flying an A320? Even their direct entry requirements hints at preferring someone with multi-crew and EFIS experience over those slogging it out on GA aircraft.
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As we appear to be going down the European route to an airline seat (as I have thought we would for some years) it is instructive to have a look at the "Terms and Endearments" thread, especially on Ryanair, for a look at the future. 
It is not a pretty site (pun intended) and may make those who think a cadetship is a good idea think again.
It is not a pretty site (pun intended) and may make those who think a cadetship is a good idea think again.
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Really smiling monkey?? I've never heard of Singapore airlines or any other legacy carrier ever putting a cadet into a direct entry FO position? I must have been asleep for the past 20years??!! I've only ever heard of Ryanair and easyjet and you might just like to take a little time to read some posts on their forums.
Obviously nothing will be done here because of guys like yourself and 3 holer that won't stand up and protect an industry that's being flushed down the toilet by a CEO in his thirties with "years" of industry experience.
Guys I'm not trying to argue but if you make a reply post, how about having a little substance instead of asking how you can contact a union?? You have a computer, google it!!
Low cost carriers equals low cost base.
Obviously nothing will be done here because of guys like yourself and 3 holer that won't stand up and protect an industry that's being flushed down the toilet by a CEO in his thirties with "years" of industry experience.
Guys I'm not trying to argue but if you make a reply post, how about having a little substance instead of asking how you can contact a union?? You have a computer, google it!!
Low cost carriers equals low cost base.
I don't know whether you're being sarcastic or not, but to answer your question, yes, Singapore Airlines cadets do end up as F/O's. They don't have S/O's like we know it on Qantas. And their cadets don't pay a cent for their training either.
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Actually a lot of legacy carriers put cadets in the right hand seat. British Airways does not have the position of Second Officer so all cadets go straight into the right hand seat of a jet. I have flown with many Captains who started at BA as a 180 hour cadet in the right hand seat of the 747 classic, DC10, 757, 767, A320. With most being under 20, can't really fault their safety record either.
You may not agree with the cadet scheme from a 'terms and conditions' point of view but please don't suggest for one moment that someone with such low hours is incapable of flying a heavy jet.
You may not agree with the cadet scheme from a 'terms and conditions' point of view but please don't suggest for one moment that someone with such low hours is incapable of flying a heavy jet.