Air North Brasilia Crash in Darwin (Merged)
I don't see anything wrong with training in the aircraft, surely it must be safer doing it in an emb than a chieftain?
There is absolutely no comparison. It is simply impossible to practice most scenarios in an aircraft.
The difference between a cheiftan and a larger aircraft is that there are no cheiftan sims, and we aren't talking about those flight sims.
I don't see anything wrong with training in the aircraft, surely it must be safer doing it in an emb than a chieftain?
The simulator if used correctly will prove how critical some of these failures can be and is invaluable in training crews.
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Fact: the Emb120 sim in Tullamarine is available (I'm happy to be stand corrected... is it U/S?) for ballpark (I'm aware of the pricing) $750 per hour; JQ DRW-MEL return $400? And a night at the 'Not so Quality Inn' $90 (....all facts)...
Why why why why why why... whyyyy do operators continue assy training in the aircraft when a SAFE alternative is available? No judgement to AN at all, it's legal still, right? Wasn't anything learnt from the Brasilia incident at Skippers (god bless 170% Tq hey?) I know the ATSB forwarded said final report to all Oz Emb120 operators.
And why x 1000 does this industry insist on savings today....
Why why why why why why... whyyyy do operators continue assy training in the aircraft when a SAFE alternative is available? No judgement to AN at all, it's legal still, right? Wasn't anything learnt from the Brasilia incident at Skippers (god bless 170% Tq hey?) I know the ATSB forwarded said final report to all Oz Emb120 operators.
And why x 1000 does this industry insist on savings today....
Spending more is usually the cheapest option.
The ATSB investigation will give us the real cause of this accident.I think I am right to say from the CAO's,for training flights the FDR/CVR's have to be serviceable.So they should tell the full story when the investigation is complete.Hopefully they were serviceable to make the flight legal.
Yup, irrespective of the final outcome to the causes of this accident, there are a number of people that still have to understand that just because the regs permit something does not make it safe or sensible - especially when there are other options.
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There is nothing inappropriate about remoak's posts. We should feel grateful that a person of his wisdom and experience is contributing to this discussion.
The "big picture"? That is all about the causes of the crash and what the lessons are for safety. Spoilher, you are confusing the big picture with the small picture.
As far as costs are concerned, it is actually cheaper to do this sort of training in the simulator. So, no, the operator is not doing it in the aircraft to save money!
I have had discussions with a couple of fellow turboprop pilots about this crash. When speculating about whether the engine-out performance of the aircraft was a factor, they both made statements similar to:
This view is alarming. I have also heard a King Air pilot say the same about his aircraft.
Where do these guys get these views? Do these ideas start as bar talk that then spread via the younger and more impressionable pilots? Just how entrenched is this view?
Something for the ATSB to think about ...
The "big picture"? That is all about the causes of the crash and what the lessons are for safety. Spoilher, you are confusing the big picture with the small picture.
As far as costs are concerned, it is actually cheaper to do this sort of training in the simulator. So, no, the operator is not doing it in the aircraft to save money!
I have had discussions with a couple of fellow turboprop pilots about this crash. When speculating about whether the engine-out performance of the aircraft was a factor, they both made statements similar to:
The Braz has got so much power it could fly away with gear down and propeller windmilling.
Where do these guys get these views? Do these ideas start as bar talk that then spread via the younger and more impressionable pilots? Just how entrenched is this view?
Something for the ATSB to think about ...
Last edited by FGD135; 23rd Mar 2010 at 00:12.
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We never know the HOUR or DAY
Tribute from todays NT Newspaper to two great AUSTRALIANS tragically taken from us.
I am sure they are in a better place than us.
Crash pair a part of NT community | Northern Territory News | Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia | ntnews.com.au
I am sure they are in a better place than us.
Crash pair a part of NT community | Northern Territory News | Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia | ntnews.com.au
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FGD,
I think you are missing the point with those two statements:
In the case of the EMB120, it is an aircraft that has to be able to do exactly that to meet the requirements of CAO 20.7.1B.
In the case of the B200, whilst it is not required to meet 20.7.1B, it more than likely can, surely someone has ran the numbers on this statement.
They were making a statement on the single engine performance of the aircraft.
IMHO the same can not be said for say, a PA39 or C402B, (from personal experience). i.e. A PA39 on one engine can not climb away with gear down and the failed windmilling.
I do not believe they were displaying an over confidence or arrogance in those cases, statement of opinion/fact.
I think you are missing the point with those two statements:
The Braz has got so much power it could fly away with gear down and propeller windmilling.
I have also heard a King Air pilot say the same about his aircraft.
In the case of the B200, whilst it is not required to meet 20.7.1B, it more than likely can, surely someone has ran the numbers on this statement.
They were making a statement on the single engine performance of the aircraft.
IMHO the same can not be said for say, a PA39 or C402B, (from personal experience). i.e. A PA39 on one engine can not climb away with gear down and the failed windmilling.
I do not believe they were displaying an over confidence or arrogance in those cases, statement of opinion/fact.
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Had a chat to one of the deceased only a month ago at the Ansett sim centre, ironically he was there trying to organise the Brasillia sim training program for A/N. He was also heading to greener pastures in the near future. A terrible tragedy at any time.RIP.
The Braz has got so much power it could fly away with gear down and propeller windmilling.
In the case of the EMB120, it is an aircraft that has to be able to do exactly that to meet the requirements of CAO 20.7.1B.
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Do you know what "Segment One" is ?.
Reference CAO 20.7.1B section 7.1
recognised at V
Note: I am not buying into discussion of this horrible event, thought FGD was mistakenly suprised by what he/she was told/overheard, wanted to share an objective explaination.
Reference CAO 20.7.1B section 7.1
7.1 In the take-off configuration assuming failure of the critical engine so that it is
recognised at V
1, an aeroplane must be able to climb without ground effect at
the speed established as the speed at which the aeroplane becomes airborne and
in this configuration, without landing gear retraction, achieve a gross gradient
in this configuration, without landing gear retraction, achieve a gross gradient
of climb which is positive for two-engined aeroplanes.
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Josh,
Your statements are causing me some alarm - and affirming my view that this dangerous perception is widespread.
No twin engined aircraft can climb with one propeller windmilling. You should know that instinctively!
Your statements are causing me some alarm - and affirming my view that this dangerous perception is widespread.
No twin engined aircraft can climb with one propeller windmilling. You should know that instinctively!
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Really ?, are all twin engine aircraft equipped with operational auto feather ?, are you expected to rely on that auto feather, you know, with your life ?.
In two crew, when do you run your "Phase One Drill" ?, before or after the acceleration altitude ?, how then do you get to acceleration altitude ?.
In two crew, when do you run your "Phase One Drill" ?, before or after the acceleration altitude ?, how then do you get to acceleration altitude ?.
I have had discussions with a couple of fellow turboprop pilots about this crash. When speculating about whether the engine-out performance of the aircraft was a factor, they both made statements similar to:
Quote:
The Braz has got so much power it could fly away with gear down and propeller windmilling.
This view is alarming. I have also heard a King Air pilot say the same about his aircraft.
Where do these guys get these views?
Quote:
The Braz has got so much power it could fly away with gear down and propeller windmilling.
This view is alarming. I have also heard a King Air pilot say the same about his aircraft.
Where do these guys get these views?
When you live....
Peter you missed my point; My argument is if there's a sim it should be law that it's used and not done in the aircraft (for example there's no F50 sim in oz so well they have no other choice)
Either it's not legal to train in a real a/c in which case it doesn't matter where the sim is - you have to use it; or it is legal to train in the sim. Putting distances from the sim in legislation?
Sensible to use an aircraft - not going there.....
UTR.
Bottums Up
No twin engined aircraft can climb with one propeller windmilling. You should know that instinctively!
A colleague with my current employer was also a colleague in a former life. He was flying a Nord out of Sydney for Tamworth when a blade separated from the 5 bladed prop, and in doing so damaged the hub preventing feathering of the prop. With a load of pax, they continued flight back to Sydney with the remnants of the prop windmilling happily.
--------------------------------------
One must agree that Stallie's comment above is right on the money. Legal isn't necessarily best.
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No twin engined aircraft can climb with one propeller windmilling. You should know that instinctively!
To use just one example - both Clarrie and I have a few hours on the Dash from previous lives. The 1/2/300 series ALL have MEL's for dispatch with autofeather inop. Yes, there is a weight penalty, which will guarantee compliance with 20.7.1b.
Most operators (as did the one I worked for) covered training for such situations in the simulator during the cyclic program on a very regular basis. All fairly routine, as I'm sure Clarrie will attest to. These exercises were conducted with the aircraft configured in the assumption that autofeather was operating (ie no weight penalty). The aircraft still climbed prior to the condition lever being moved to Start/Feather during the recall actions.
I'm sure there are other aircraft which can dispatch with inop autofeather/NTS.
To make a broad sweeping statement that an aircraft will not climb with a windmilling prop shows a lack of understanding (or experience) on propeller driven aeroplanes. Particularly turboprops.
I'm sure the guys involved in this crash were doing what was a fairly routine training exercise, only conducted in the aircraft. I'm not going to express an opinion on the merit or otherwise of what happened yesterday. I'll leave that to the experts.
Forgot to add that at reduced weight aircraft which require a functional autofeather (or equivelent) may depart in compliance with the CAO;
(Very simply) To climb Thrust and Lift must balance or exceed Weight and Drag. Assuming power is limited then if drag dramatically increases (windmilling prop) then by reducing weight you can get the required performance. But the weight penalty is usually quite large.
Engine failure with the failure of an autofeather system at high weight soon after V1 and some large turbo-props may even struggle to get airborne at all let alone climb after lift off. Quick action by the crew to manually feather the prop is required.
Most twin engined aircraft could reduce weight to a level where able to climb in various high drag situations. But are these statements still true at normal operating weights? Most likely no, and configuration becomes critical.
(Very simply) To climb Thrust and Lift must balance or exceed Weight and Drag. Assuming power is limited then if drag dramatically increases (windmilling prop) then by reducing weight you can get the required performance. But the weight penalty is usually quite large.
Engine failure with the failure of an autofeather system at high weight soon after V1 and some large turbo-props may even struggle to get airborne at all let alone climb after lift off. Quick action by the crew to manually feather the prop is required.
Most twin engined aircraft could reduce weight to a level where able to climb in various high drag situations. But are these statements still true at normal operating weights? Most likely no, and configuration becomes critical.