Mutiny on the QF12 ????
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ditch handle
You are full of crap, true it is different culture I believe BUT certainly not what you are referring to in your posts. I have heard nothing about this event therefore in the eyes of the A380 crew it is clearly a non event and only interests the crew living in the fantasy land of the 747.
When you are prepared to be more specific come back to us with your rumoured information and maybe someone may be able to comment. So far it just sounds like someone has their big nose out of joint over the A380 crew. You werent on board but im sure you have a friend of a friend who is related to the cousin of someone working on the BOS desk.
As for the CC Managers they are extremely supportive and pro-active in dealing with A380 crew thats their job.
The experience level of crew has risen greatly over the past 6 months and think this is clearly evident on board the aircraft. The A380 at times suffers significant delays from time to time and crew are more than happy to assist the company where ever possible.
You are full of crap, true it is different culture I believe BUT certainly not what you are referring to in your posts. I have heard nothing about this event therefore in the eyes of the A380 crew it is clearly a non event and only interests the crew living in the fantasy land of the 747.
When you are prepared to be more specific come back to us with your rumoured information and maybe someone may be able to comment. So far it just sounds like someone has their big nose out of joint over the A380 crew. You werent on board but im sure you have a friend of a friend who is related to the cousin of someone working on the BOS desk.
As for the CC Managers they are extremely supportive and pro-active in dealing with A380 crew thats their job.
The experience level of crew has risen greatly over the past 6 months and think this is clearly evident on board the aircraft. The A380 at times suffers significant delays from time to time and crew are more than happy to assist the company where ever possible.
When you are prepared to be more specific come back to us with your rumoured information and maybe someone may be able to comment.
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rumor definition
ru·mor (ro̵̅o̅′mər)
noun
ru·mor (ro̵̅o̅′mər)
noun
- general talk not based on definite knowledge; mere gossip; hearsay.
- an unconfirmed report, story, or statement in general circulation.
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correct, 20 hours is
the official limit as per industrial agreement but there is also an out clause. in plain english that means "if the individual crew member feels ok then they can go on". and sanctioned by the union. would the resident union chaps confirm this here. A few month ago in brisbane i believe it went along those lines....
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Perspective from the ground
It was Saturday Morning the 13th March Brisbane time.
At about 0400 local (no daylight savings in the dumb state), I was working (ATC) and my supervisor came over and advised that QF12 was about 4hrs late getting away due to tug and other problems at LAX, and that presently they were going to arrive in YSSY with less than 1hr duty time left.
He asked if they could have as much direct tracking as possible to avoid a BNE diversion (now that would have been news hey, just like UAL839 a few weeks ago!), and that other QF aircraft would get out of the way to facilitate this...
I finished at 0600 local and passed the info onto my relief...
At about 0400 local (no daylight savings in the dumb state), I was working (ATC) and my supervisor came over and advised that QF12 was about 4hrs late getting away due to tug and other problems at LAX, and that presently they were going to arrive in YSSY with less than 1hr duty time left.
He asked if they could have as much direct tracking as possible to avoid a BNE diversion (now that would have been news hey, just like UAL839 a few weeks ago!), and that other QF aircraft would get out of the way to facilitate this...
I finished at 0600 local and passed the info onto my relief...
Now that there are a few more facts flowing, this is from the Qantas Flight Info site:
So 3hrs 23mins late fits in with a 19hr + tour of duty. The close to on-time departure from LAX would have been triggered with the initial release of the parking brake before the trouble with the tug began!
Los Angeles to Sydney on Saturday 13 March 2010
Flight No. QF12
From To
Los Angeles Sydney
Scheduled Departure Actual Departure
22:30 (Thu) 22:35 (Thu)
Scheduled Arrival Actual Arrival Status
08:25 11:48 Landed
Flight No. QF12
From To
Los Angeles Sydney
Scheduled Departure Actual Departure
22:30 (Thu) 22:35 (Thu)
Scheduled Arrival Actual Arrival Status
08:25 11:48 Landed
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Well,it looks like the rumour has just been substantiated and is credible.
It also looks like this is not always the case.
The problem in a case like this is like the old cliche
'How long is a piece of string'.In other words how long is the delay because people are making educated guesses as to how long the delay will be and an guesstimate on an arrival time.In this case if correct 15 minutes was all that was left so it was fairly close call and could have gone either way.What if it had turned out to be 21 hours or 19.The problem is that CC are not always given informed and impartial information to make a decision and if the OBM's are not good at communicating or have their own agenda the rest of the crew can feel isolated.
You have a long tour of duty and there is a significant delay.The airline obviously wants to get the aircraft away and the tech crew do not always think of it from a CC point of view.
That does not excuse anyone from calling the flight deck during the no contact period or for questioning the Capt.You might not agree with his/her decision but they are in command.You should be able to say that you are not happy with the decision and that you will take it up later in the office but not when you are about to take off or the Capt/tech crew are obviously busy.
However,there should be a mechanism so that in cases like this if you think you have been given a snow job by the airline or the Capt or anyone once you get home you have an avenue to address the situation.
The A380 at times suffers significant delays from time to time and crew are more than happy to assist the company where ever possible.
The problem in a case like this is like the old cliche
'How long is a piece of string'.In other words how long is the delay because people are making educated guesses as to how long the delay will be and an guesstimate on an arrival time.In this case if correct 15 minutes was all that was left so it was fairly close call and could have gone either way.What if it had turned out to be 21 hours or 19.The problem is that CC are not always given informed and impartial information to make a decision and if the OBM's are not good at communicating or have their own agenda the rest of the crew can feel isolated.
You have a long tour of duty and there is a significant delay.The airline obviously wants to get the aircraft away and the tech crew do not always think of it from a CC point of view.
That does not excuse anyone from calling the flight deck during the no contact period or for questioning the Capt.You might not agree with his/her decision but they are in command.You should be able to say that you are not happy with the decision and that you will take it up later in the office but not when you are about to take off or the Capt/tech crew are obviously busy.
However,there should be a mechanism so that in cases like this if you think you have been given a snow job by the airline or the Capt or anyone once you get home you have an avenue to address the situation.
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What snow job? If the QCCA contract specifies extending to 20 hours with no question, why was there a problem going to 19:45?
Cabin crew should be aware that Tech Crew will not go past 20 hours on a four pilot crew as it is against the CAO's and hence is against the law, and a consequence the aircraft ceases to be insured in the event of an accident. I am guessing that is why a diversion to BNE was being considered. 20 hours is it.
Maybe that should be more widely disseminated.
Cabin crew should be aware that Tech Crew will not go past 20 hours on a four pilot crew as it is against the CAO's and hence is against the law, and a consequence the aircraft ceases to be insured in the event of an accident. I am guessing that is why a diversion to BNE was being considered. 20 hours is it.
Maybe that should be more widely disseminated.
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Charlie Fly Away- You had me until
Because I've looked and looked and I'm buggered if I can see a tug attachment point on the wings. 
edit
post 35 Pegasus747
At best 92.30769% correct, because no A380 has ever been towed anywhere by its wings. AND THAT'S A FACT JACK
2 more tugs pulled the aircraft back by the wings - yep, true.
edit
post 35 Pegasus747
charlie fly away is 100% correct based on the info i have recieved (sic)
Last edited by Back Seat Driver; 15th Mar 2010 at 05:15.
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Ahhh the CC would have been so disappointed they ended up getting away, oh would they have loved to walk and handball all the furious pax to the ground staff and quickly disappeared out the back exit for another over night.
Unfortunately so many of the crew really hope for a cancellation because it means another night in LA or wherever they maybe with no care of how it will impact the operation or the ground staff who have to pick up the pieces....
I know its not all crew there are many dedicated ones but unfortunately its all to common.
Unfortunately so many of the crew really hope for a cancellation because it means another night in LA or wherever they maybe with no care of how it will impact the operation or the ground staff who have to pick up the pieces....
I know its not all crew there are many dedicated ones but unfortunately its all to common.
I'm sure they just hooked up a couple of snatch straps to the handles in the top of the body gear wheel wells and pulled it out.
And I'm with the captain on this one,floggings, and public floggings at that!
And I'm with the captain on this one,floggings, and public floggings at that!
This just shouldn't have been an issue. Pilots cannot go past 20 hours. Departure was obviously looking tight, but still worth a look. And that's with Sydney as the destination. You can always go to Brisbane and save 45 minutes or so, or perhaps go to Fiji and save a couple of hours, but still have the jet within reasonably easy recovery range.
I suspect the Captain would have been stunned by the lack of thought from the back end, and can only hope that if the story as told here is true that a couple of CC are looking for other employment.
I suspect the Captain would have been stunned by the lack of thought from the back end, and can only hope that if the story as told here is true that a couple of CC are looking for other employment.
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Just a point on RedTBar's "could have gone either way."
Once 20 hours Tour of Duty [TOD] is passed, it's the feeling of most pundits that neither the company [in this case QF] nor the PIC have a leg to stand on should there be a problem resulting in litigation.
Having dealt with this for over 40 years, they'd have been in BNE or elsewhere before breaking the 20hr limit and continuing to SYD.
Finally, yes, you can be that accurate once underway!!
G'day
Once 20 hours Tour of Duty [TOD] is passed, it's the feeling of most pundits that neither the company [in this case QF] nor the PIC have a leg to stand on should there be a problem resulting in litigation.
Having dealt with this for over 40 years, they'd have been in BNE or elsewhere before breaking the 20hr limit and continuing to SYD.
Finally, yes, you can be that accurate once underway!!
G'day
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Feather #3,I know exactly what you mean however the crux of the matter is when you said
.Thats the kicker.
The problem is when you finally get away.
once underway!!
The problem is when you finally get away.
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The problem is when you finally get away.
I get the feeling here that this CC began to get into their minds early in the piece that they were not going anywhere, were well into planning a night in LA and got a shock when the eventually aircraft departed.
Where to? Well SYD was the plan but like all good operations there were other options if getting to SYD inside of 20 hours wasn't going to happen.
Brisbane, Fiji, Auckland.... Cairns even. Anywhere reasonably close to destination where a standby crew could be expeditiously sent to get the aircraft to Sydney.
If the posts are true about the CC arguing that the aircraft had every right to depart even if they were not going to eventually end up in SYD, then it highlights the fact that they either haven't read the contract they operate under and/or have little idea of how a modern airline works.