Unions Join Forces Against V Australia
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: BAO
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
201,830 Gross inclusive of Super
For what it's worth- doing wages (non Aviation) here at the minute and have the gear in front of me, so a fast and dirty breakdown............ of $201,830 Gross inclusive of Super:
$201,830.00 less Super of $16,664.86 (being 9%) = $185,165.14 Gross before Tax.
Tax on $185,165.14 p.a. claiming the Tax-Free Threshold/ No Leave Loading = $60,996.00 p.a. for 09/10.
Therefore after Tax = $124,169.14 nett
Have a good weekend all
Rgds
S28- BE
.
(No warranty given or implied as to accuracy of calculations/information, in any shape or form.)
$201,830.00 less Super of $16,664.86 (being 9%) = $185,165.14 Gross before Tax.
Tax on $185,165.14 p.a. claiming the Tax-Free Threshold/ No Leave Loading = $60,996.00 p.a. for 09/10.
Therefore after Tax = $124,169.14 nett
Have a good weekend all
Rgds
S28- BE
.
(No warranty given or implied as to accuracy of calculations/information, in any shape or form.)
Zapata...If those numbers are correct, and I havent heard of any change from the original 175k, then the BASE is a couple of grand more than the 737. But, if you consider overtime above 71hrs (approx 220/hr), and day off payments of over 1k a piece if you do not need the extra 3 days off a month that you get on the 737 and would like to sell them, then the difference is quite significant. But we're not comparing apples with apples, the 777 should be significanly more.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
High Bypass,
“STAY OVERSEAS or come home to V Australia, accept whats on offer and STFU !!”
I think that’s pretty much what has happened. Its twits like you doing the moaning.
Basil
“While people are knocking down their door on the current conditions - why would they??”
Ahhh, precisely. You are doing a fine job of arguing with yourself here, no input required.
Red Jet
“I find the lack of comprehension of the market forces, on behalf of some of the posters on this forum simply astounding!”
So do I.
Neville,
“However these market 'forces' are somewhat skewed by those who are independently wealthy from working at foreign airlines or those who will accept any contract just to escape the country they are currently living in.”
Sorry, but you don’t get to decide who can participate in the market and who cannot. If a bunch of wealthy type rated soon to retire folk sans mortgage return to oz to work for a startup carrier then that’s life my friend. Deal with it.
Rhone
“The aspiration at minimum should be the Qantas salary”
Why.
Flamingmoe,
“..the 777 should be significanly more.”
Why?
“STAY OVERSEAS or come home to V Australia, accept whats on offer and STFU !!”
I think that’s pretty much what has happened. Its twits like you doing the moaning.
Basil
“While people are knocking down their door on the current conditions - why would they??”
Ahhh, precisely. You are doing a fine job of arguing with yourself here, no input required.
Red Jet
“I find the lack of comprehension of the market forces, on behalf of some of the posters on this forum simply astounding!”
So do I.
Neville,
“However these market 'forces' are somewhat skewed by those who are independently wealthy from working at foreign airlines or those who will accept any contract just to escape the country they are currently living in.”
Sorry, but you don’t get to decide who can participate in the market and who cannot. If a bunch of wealthy type rated soon to retire folk sans mortgage return to oz to work for a startup carrier then that’s life my friend. Deal with it.
Rhone
“The aspiration at minimum should be the Qantas salary”
Why.
Flamingmoe,
“..the 777 should be significanly more.”
Why?
ZB, am not so sure the 777 skipper salary is higher than the 737... isn't the super at VA 12% (anyone confirm?) On Section 28's figures,that would put the base closer to $179,000. Current VB 737 base is $179,408, going to $184,791 on July 1 2010. Then with overtime and callouts, the 737 drivers are certainly better off. Hope the V guys can negotiate significant improvement in the EBA... with current management, that will be a difficult task.
Last edited by air command; 13th Mar 2010 at 00:31.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bolivia
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hope the V guys can negotiate significant improvement in the EBA... with current management, that will be a difficult task.
If nothing changes, then I would suggest that there may well be a few more positions opening up at V for the returning expats, and aspiring newbies, than is currently anticipated.
Just to clarify recent postings about salary. At present the base pay (excluding super) for 737 and 777 pilots is approx the same (within a couple of K). The significant difference is that the 737 pay is for 71 hours in a roster period, and 777 pay is for 100 hours in a roster period. That is a 41% productivity increase that 777 pilots are providing, which should put 777 pay around 254k if we were comparing apples with apples. Add to this the fact that Ejet drivers get 20% less than 737 drivers because it is a smaller aircraft, and combine it with the fact that to get the workforce to agree to that little gem they promised the pilots that the trippler would be 20% more than a 737, we find that there are some serious pay discrepancies within the Virgin Group.
If you were to combine the productivity with the promised 20%, 777 pilots at V should be on 303k for 100hours per month, if we were comparing apples with apples.......... but we're not.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out there will be a retention problem as the world economy ramps up in the coming years, if the disparate pay across the group is not addressed in a reasonable time frame.
Another interesting point is that recent CC promotions have shown that the new CL's are on a base pay that does not include the recent CPI increase that everyone received. Therefore it is plausible, at this stage, that new joiners may well be on a lower salary than current employees, but we will have to wait and see. I will be interested to hear what the recent batch of CRFO's earn.
V
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oicur...as usual you seem to know everything about everything.
Why should the QF salaries be the aspirational minimum? What would you have instead? The Jetstar. Pacific Blue or Tiger wages?
Fortunately, shortly there will be too few pilots for too many aircraft and market forces will rule so we may achieve some improvements to our lot in spite of and not because of ourselves. Too many of us over the past few years have been too willing to undermine our peers and abuse them on PPRuNe. A most unsatisfactory state of affairs. If my knackered old memory serves me well enough oicur I think you have been one of those on PPRuNe over the years all too willing to criticise and undermine.
My own career was irreversably altered as a young guy when during a large dispute many years ago a bunch of opportunistic pilots undermined us to take jobs at domestic airlines that previously they would never have had a shot at. That sort of undermining continues to this day and whilst I am probably naieve hoping some of my peers may be able to consider others than themselves I am distressed that a few are so stupid as to not understand that their short-term gain in undermining colleagues also serves themselves poorly in the long run. Ironically for example, many of the opportunistic pilots in the abovementioned dispute, were by virtue of their reputations unable to gain employment elsewhere after one of those airlines collapsed. The karma of undermining?
At the moment QF A380/744 captains have the highest salaries in Australia. Globally those salaries aren't too much to crow about but they sure are better than Tiger or Jetstar salaries.
Consequently the QF salaries should be the yardstick for the rest of us and instead of doing everything we can to undermine those QF pilots we should be reinforcing those salary levels and using them as a yardstick.
As long as we undermine each other that will never happen.
Why should the QF salaries be the aspirational minimum? What would you have instead? The Jetstar. Pacific Blue or Tiger wages?
Fortunately, shortly there will be too few pilots for too many aircraft and market forces will rule so we may achieve some improvements to our lot in spite of and not because of ourselves. Too many of us over the past few years have been too willing to undermine our peers and abuse them on PPRuNe. A most unsatisfactory state of affairs. If my knackered old memory serves me well enough oicur I think you have been one of those on PPRuNe over the years all too willing to criticise and undermine.
My own career was irreversably altered as a young guy when during a large dispute many years ago a bunch of opportunistic pilots undermined us to take jobs at domestic airlines that previously they would never have had a shot at. That sort of undermining continues to this day and whilst I am probably naieve hoping some of my peers may be able to consider others than themselves I am distressed that a few are so stupid as to not understand that their short-term gain in undermining colleagues also serves themselves poorly in the long run. Ironically for example, many of the opportunistic pilots in the abovementioned dispute, were by virtue of their reputations unable to gain employment elsewhere after one of those airlines collapsed. The karma of undermining?
At the moment QF A380/744 captains have the highest salaries in Australia. Globally those salaries aren't too much to crow about but they sure are better than Tiger or Jetstar salaries.
Consequently the QF salaries should be the yardstick for the rest of us and instead of doing everything we can to undermine those QF pilots we should be reinforcing those salary levels and using them as a yardstick.
As long as we undermine each other that will never happen.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“Why should the QF salaries be the aspirational minimum?”
Because QF conditions are way above the average “basket” of conditions within the region for similar job roles. A startup carrier like VOZ is never going to benchmark conditions against an incumbent like QF.
“What would you have instead? The Jetstar. Pacific Blue or Tiger wages?”
And any other jet operator in the region too. The average of these is a good place to start.
“fortunately, shortly there will be too few pilots for too many aircraft….”
Never the case in oz. You mean too few pilots with the perceived required experience for the number of aircraft. It’s a very different thing.
“…. and market forces will rule……”
Precisely the point being made by myself, and some others too. Market forces work both ways. They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn. VOZ conditions are sufficient to attract the required headcount to operate their fleet, so apparently the market has spoken.
I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD. I guess I am buying.
Because QF conditions are way above the average “basket” of conditions within the region for similar job roles. A startup carrier like VOZ is never going to benchmark conditions against an incumbent like QF.
“What would you have instead? The Jetstar. Pacific Blue or Tiger wages?”
And any other jet operator in the region too. The average of these is a good place to start.
“fortunately, shortly there will be too few pilots for too many aircraft….”
Never the case in oz. You mean too few pilots with the perceived required experience for the number of aircraft. It’s a very different thing.
“…. and market forces will rule……”
Precisely the point being made by myself, and some others too. Market forces work both ways. They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn. VOZ conditions are sufficient to attract the required headcount to operate their fleet, so apparently the market has spoken.
I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD. I guess I am buying.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: shivering in the cold dark shadow of my own magnificence.
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“Why should the QF salaries be the aspirational minimum?”
Because QF conditions are way above the average “basket” of conditions within the region for similar job roles. A startup carrier like VOZ is never going to benchmark conditions against an incumbent like QF.
Because QF conditions are way above the average “basket” of conditions within the region for similar job roles. A startup carrier like VOZ is never going to benchmark conditions against an incumbent like QF.
I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD. I guess I am buying.
Why stop there? Lets find some other tenuous link. I'm sure there are rickshaw drivers in Bangladesh earning less than a US dollar a day.
I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD. I guess I am buying
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hooray neville and psycho - some awareness of reality prevails at last!
oicur, you should come to HK and see what a 744 Captain earns in comparison to his 'lowly' QF counterpart (whom you erroneously seem to believe earns "way above average"). The likes of CX and Fedex are the yardsticks we should be aiming for with our salaries not crummy operators like Tiger. Why aim low? Unless of course your sympathies lie purely with management and thus you will happily screw every last penny from us overpaid glorified bus drivers into your own pocket. Some of your posts seem to lean this way.
And "never the case in Oz" for pilot shortage? Ask Rex about that! Have you actually been awake over the last 10 years? VB also had a mini-exodus some time back and this will resume as the GFC abates and overseas airlines become increasingly desperate.
And finally, your last point 'Market forces work both ways. They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn'. Why the hell not? Management have screwed pilots for years using this principal, why shouldn't professional pilots do the same? Particularly when the same management repeatedly cry poor (Dixon) then make tens/hundreds of millions in profits and pocket obscene amount in bonuses. What a farce.
I can only assume/hope oicur you are not a professional pilot because with attitudes like yours who needs enemies? Our own are all too willing to undercut us and thereby damage our collective fortunes. Your previous posts illustrate this point far more clearly than my words ever could.
oicur, you should come to HK and see what a 744 Captain earns in comparison to his 'lowly' QF counterpart (whom you erroneously seem to believe earns "way above average"). The likes of CX and Fedex are the yardsticks we should be aiming for with our salaries not crummy operators like Tiger. Why aim low? Unless of course your sympathies lie purely with management and thus you will happily screw every last penny from us overpaid glorified bus drivers into your own pocket. Some of your posts seem to lean this way.
And "never the case in Oz" for pilot shortage? Ask Rex about that! Have you actually been awake over the last 10 years? VB also had a mini-exodus some time back and this will resume as the GFC abates and overseas airlines become increasingly desperate.
And finally, your last point 'Market forces work both ways. They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn'. Why the hell not? Management have screwed pilots for years using this principal, why shouldn't professional pilots do the same? Particularly when the same management repeatedly cry poor (Dixon) then make tens/hundreds of millions in profits and pocket obscene amount in bonuses. What a farce.
I can only assume/hope oicur you are not a professional pilot because with attitudes like yours who needs enemies? Our own are all too willing to undercut us and thereby damage our collective fortunes. Your previous posts illustrate this point far more clearly than my words ever could.
I am off to have a beer with a US based 747 cargo captain. He earns about $100,000 USD.
V OZ are an international airline operating modern equipment in a first world country so the bench mark for comparison should be similar. I'm sure their conditions look good compared to Air Atlanta Icelandic or MK Airlines but they aren't the competition.
How does V OZ compare to their competitors on the same routes operating similar equipment ? Surely that's a better yard stick.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can "aspire" to anything you like. The point being that, devoid of any industrial baggage like QF, a startup like VOZ will be guided largely by market forces. Your personal aspirations have little to do with it.
“Well if he works for Fedex or UPS…..”
No, he doesn’t. And you are correct, these 2 outfits compensate significantly above average. The majority of widebody cargo pilots in the US earn a similar income as my friend.
“ The likes of CX and Fedex are the yardsticks we should be aiming for with our salaries not crummy operators like Tiger. Why aim low?”
Again, you can “aim” for whatever salary you would like to. In a competitive market, the employees will be paid no more than what the market determines is suitable.
“They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn'. Why the hell not?”
As silly as saying why can’t the sun rise in west. You appear to believe that you can influence the forces of supply and demand to suit yourself. Interesting theory. How is it working so far?
“I can only assume/hope oicur you are not a professional pilot because with attitudes like yours who needs enemies?”
Yes, I am a professional pilot. Does it make you uncomfortable that a different viewpoint is held by one of your own? Perhaps I should just follow the rest of the tribe and bitch and moan about how unfair it is to earn 200 grand.
“How does V OZ compare to their competitors on the same routes operating similar equipment ? Surely that's a better yard stick.”
Should VOZ crew aspire to the salary of a TG pilot when flying to Thailand. What about Fiji?
“Well if he works for Fedex or UPS…..”
No, he doesn’t. And you are correct, these 2 outfits compensate significantly above average. The majority of widebody cargo pilots in the US earn a similar income as my friend.
“ The likes of CX and Fedex are the yardsticks we should be aiming for with our salaries not crummy operators like Tiger. Why aim low?”
Again, you can “aim” for whatever salary you would like to. In a competitive market, the employees will be paid no more than what the market determines is suitable.
“They cannot be embraced during a labor shortage to improve conditions but ignored during a downturn'. Why the hell not?”
As silly as saying why can’t the sun rise in west. You appear to believe that you can influence the forces of supply and demand to suit yourself. Interesting theory. How is it working so far?
“I can only assume/hope oicur you are not a professional pilot because with attitudes like yours who needs enemies?”
Yes, I am a professional pilot. Does it make you uncomfortable that a different viewpoint is held by one of your own? Perhaps I should just follow the rest of the tribe and bitch and moan about how unfair it is to earn 200 grand.
“How does V OZ compare to their competitors on the same routes operating similar equipment ? Surely that's a better yard stick.”
Should VOZ crew aspire to the salary of a TG pilot when flying to Thailand. What about Fiji?
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: shivering in the cold dark shadow of my own magnificence.
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a competitive market, the employees will be paid no more than what the market determines is suitable.
The only answer is strong unions working together with a long term view of gaining real improvement for its constituency.
"Market forces" be damned. As it stands Vaus is making a profit; so there is no good reason for conditions to not improve. But only as long as the employee groups stay smart & work together.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oicur12, I believe an economist would call the "pilot market" a market failure. There is a great deal of asymmetry in the relative powers of the the two sides, on the one hand, there are really only two or three buyers and many many sellers. informal collusion or tacit agreement between the employers is possible to ensure the "pilot market" is effectively rigged. Exec's even boast of this.
Of course this suits everyone, except the pilots. When the wage component isn't even equivalent to the GST on the airport charge's component (for a domestic airfare), you know something is not right. You could argue the "pilot cost" component that may have existed in the past, has been appropriated by the airports monopoly game. MacBank is harder to push around than the pilots, said another way, its easier to take from crew than pick a real fight with the airports.
You proffer TG or Fiji salaries to compare, but not the living costs in those countries, why is that? It is what your pay packet will purchase that's important, not it's quanta.
Market forces, you must be kidding, there's no such thing, its a rigged game.
Of course this suits everyone, except the pilots. When the wage component isn't even equivalent to the GST on the airport charge's component (for a domestic airfare), you know something is not right. You could argue the "pilot cost" component that may have existed in the past, has been appropriated by the airports monopoly game. MacBank is harder to push around than the pilots, said another way, its easier to take from crew than pick a real fight with the airports.
You proffer TG or Fiji salaries to compare, but not the living costs in those countries, why is that? It is what your pay packet will purchase that's important, not it's quanta.
Market forces, you must be kidding, there's no such thing, its a rigged game.
