Unions Join Forces Against V Australia

[TurbTool]

A. Le Rhone you make excellent points and discuss the situation objectively which is all great to read.

I question though about moving on and urging the AFAP etc.

When this situation has been created and continues to grow now because VIPA is born of people who were not willing to pitch in and assist the AFAP but whinged that the AFAP could not perform miracles for them,

and

AIPA has stated publicly (in a recent Australian) that it can no longer work with the AFAP and will instead turn its attention to VIPA,

and

while both of these are de-unifying acts and are in the present not in the past,

How would you expect people to move on and become united?

I agree that it would be desirable but cannot for the life of me see how it will ever happen while VIPA continues to attempt tp split the VB pilots and AIPA continues to attempt to lure AFAP members from the QF regionals and Jetstar, instead of working together.

[maggotdriver]

Prior to that year, I have read that the AFAP were the most powerful union in Australia's history. This needs to be read in the context that there were mistakes made, but what can be learned? United and legal but even more importantly not fighting a government owned entity we have considerable power. Ask the management of QF how much the engineers cost them. How much are the management of Lufthansa about to piss away in four days? 98 million $AUS. AIPA is the biggest aviation union at the moment, the best resourced and QANTAS have an EBA coming up with significant flying being outsourced. When time and time again management have made hollow promises - surely, just a meeting (well advertised to stop any problems with business and the government) and stamped by FWA as legal, must be on the cards. Just one, to begin with and let's see what happens then. I know the history so I don't need a lecture. The way the future is headed we're in the same place at any rate. I just prefer once that instead of being hoodwinked again for the 27000th time, we held their stare and didn't blink. We did everything legally and had it stamped as such by the government, not in arrogant defiance of it.
Good on you AIPA and VIPA we may have a chance.

[somewhereat1l]

Please do not reply to this email. Send all correspondence to [email protected]

22 February 2010
Attention All V Australia Cabin Crew

FAAA LODGES DISPUTE WITH FWA OVER DUTY HOUR LIMITATIONS

Further to our newsletter to members dated 15 February 2010, I wish to advise members that VAustralia management finally responded to the FAAA by letter dated 12 February 2010, that in their opinion they are not in breach of the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award 2010, particularly its provisions relating to duty hour limitations.
In these circumstances the FAAA had no option but to lodge a dispute application in Fair Work Australia (the industrial umpire), last Friday 19 February 2010. We now await a date from FWA as to when the matter will be heard. We anticipate that the hearing will occur fairly soon. Once we get these details we will advise members and the FAAA would urge interested members to attend the hearing and hear firsthand how V Australia justifies the creation of patterns which exceed the limits allowed by the Award.
The FAAA is disappointed that management continue to obfuscate, delay and generally be as difficult as possible on the issue of commencing EBA (Enterprise Bargaining Agreement) negotiations with the FAAA.
We (the FAAA) have been crystal clear with them in relation to this issue. We have indicated to management that we do not propose to negotiate an EBA that would cover pilots as well as cabin crew in one EBA or indeed any other occupational grouping.
In their letter to the FAAA of 12 February, the Company persists with the notion that it wants pilots and cabin crew to be covered by one EBA. This is despite the relevant Pilot's unions also being opposed to the idea.
We will shortly advise members as to the next step that the FAAA will take to attempt to "persuade" the Company to cease its nonsense and commence EBA negotiations with the FAAA.
Finally, reprinted below is an article that appeared in The Australian on 19 February 2010.
Unions join forces against V Australia: maximum duty hour limitations

• Steve Creedy
• From: The Australian
• February 19, 2010 12:00AM

V AUSTRALIA is facing legal action and possible industrial turmoil as unions representing flight attendants and pilots lobby for new agreements.
The Flight Attendants Association of Australia is preparing to launch legal action with Fair Work Australia, alleging breaches of maximum duty hour limitations defining how long crew can work under the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award.
And the Qantas-based Australian International Pilots Association has moved to help its fledgling Virgin counterpart, VIPA, with negotiations on an enterprise agreement.
Both groups are opposed to a Virgin move to bring pilots and cabin crew under one enterprise agreement.
FAAA International Division Secretary Michael Mijatov said the union had written to V Australia several times about the flight limitation issue.
Mr Mijatov said the union, which had recruited 75 per cent of the airline's flight attendants, wanted to discuss the issue in the context of wider enterprise bargaining negotiations.
"They are just being very, very difficult," he said.
"They pretend to their employees that they're friendly and they care about them, but when you meet with them they are just totally arrogant and dismissive."
Mr Mijatov said the association expected to lodge its duty hour claim today and he was seeking legal advice on how to get the airline to the bargaining table.
"One of the things I will be raising will actually be the option of notifying a bargaining period and that would be the first step in the potential use of industrial action."
A spokeswoman for Virgin Blue confirmed that the FAAA had raised a concern with management and said V Australia had responded.
She said the airline had already agreed to start discussions on an EBA for the airline.
"Currently we're simply awaiting the nomination of EBA representatives so we can proceed with that intention," she said.
But Mr Mijatov said a letter was received this week indicating the airline believed it was not breaking flight limitations and indicating it still wanted to keep all crew under one agreement.
He had spoken to both VIPA and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots and was aware that neither wanted an agreement involving cabin crew.
VIPA, which was set up last year, and AIPA said they were working together on ways to increase membership of V Australia pilots with the aim of negotiating a new collective agreement.
AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said the current V Australia contract was capped at levels below those of most airlines. "We're a bit worried where that contract's going to go ultimately and I gather they're coming up for EBA negotiations, so we felt it was time to offer assistance unless they plumb the depths of pilot contracts in Australia, let alone the world," he said.

Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov - Secretary International Division

20 Ewan Street Mascot NSW 2020 Tel [phone] Fax [phone] Emergency Contact 0414 894 192 www.faaa.net

[psycho joe]

When this situation has been created and continues to grow now because VIPA is born of people who were not willing to pitch in and assist the AFAP but whinged that the AFAP could not perform miracles for them,

Ah, the mantra of the diehard supporter.

Time & time & time again the failings of the AFAP are blamed on its constituency.

Like it or not the AFAP is increasingly becoming irrelevant & isolationist; And when the last of the dispute pilots die out, the last remnants of its die hard support base will be gone.

The only way that the AFAP can survive is by pointing the finger internally, seriously reviewing their core business and embracing the other unions.

I think it's universally agreed that no pilot thinks well of VA t & C's, but the fact is that the airline does exist; So any cohesive effort to improve conditions must be encouraged & can only be beneficial to the industry as a whole. And if by some genius/miracle/black magic the Vaus pilots achieve a favourable outcome where does that leave the AFAP? Isolationist? Irrelevant? Looking like a petulant child?

[struggling]

Untimately disengaged pilots, tough management and the inability to come up with a lateral solution, results in:

A Strike
The pilots' union of Lufthansa began a strike Monday after a last-ditch effort at negotiations over pay and job security failed, a spokeswoman for the airline told CNN. The four-day work stoppage by the pilots' union of one of the world's largest airlines threatened to disrupt travel on more than two dozen partner airlines later on Monday.[/font]

• The union is also concerned with the airline's recent buying spree of small regional carriers, such as BMI and Austrian Airlines which, it says, is cannibalizing flights away from union-flown routes.

"We fly less hours and have less potential for (performance-related bonuses)," Handwerg said. "We want to have the opportunity to grow, but instead it shrinks."

In a statement, Lufthansa said: "In addition to demands on job security, however, the union also insisted on a greater say on fundamental entrepreneurial issues, equating to intervention in business management at the airline. That demand cannot be accepted."

Video Report available at:
Lufthansa pilots will strike | Video | Reuters.com

Can only hope that those flying and managing V Australia know what's best for managment, staff and shareholders.

[busdriver007]

Germany is unique in that the unions already have a seat on the board(on Lufthansa)...by law...interesting concept....

[Cactusjack]

Desperate for flair

I am shocked,in fact I am in disbelief.Where has all the Virgin flair gone ? This thread is incredibly 'unflairish'.
Where has the dream gone. Richard's group came in to save Australia from predators like Qantas and Ansett and set up low fare's for us, yes us - the poorly treated public who have ( or were ) held to ransome from the naughty duopoly for so long. Low fairs = jobs, cheap flights for the public as well as fun, flair and excitement.
Is this why poor Brett is leaving ? Nobody in the company any longer believes in the dream ? Surely not. After all, Virgin empire's profits and self wealth have never been the goal of the corporation or individuals - it has always been staff first, passengers second and profits last !
And to think that so many who work for the flairish airline are now so disgruntled, bitter and twisted. I dont understand it. Truly a sad day to see such angst, frustration, bitterness and hatred !

Oh, what I meant to say is it has taken all these years for the staff to wake up has it ???

[TurbTool]

Psycho,

I doubt VIPA will survive without the the support of its constituency (if it actually has one) and should it fail that will be the main reason.

Interesting that the head honcho of the AFAP is a VB captain and VB still has an active council, so I still believe the formation of VIPA is as I suggested.

The AFAP is surviving very well, as AIPA don't care about anyone but the Qantas group pilots, and very few of those are leaving to join AIPA, as it is not able to deliver on its promises.

I would be delighted to see VIPA negotiate a better deal for VA, that is not what my post was about, it was aimed more at the suggestion that the new AIPA/VIPA alliance will bring "UNITY" to the pilot profession in Australia, which clearly, it won't.

[Van Gough]

why would you ever want to be a pilot..

Gorgon workers to get pay bonanza - The West Australian

Have a look and see what the CFMEU union negotiated for unskilled labourers (admittedly for a 70 hour week)

$150000 as a labourer! Thats what happens when workers stick together...

[High-Bypass]

and if Gorgon paid less than the industry standard, people wouldnt apply.

VA, TT, et al offer below standard conditions and ppl can't wait to join.

[laut]

Well said High-Bypass !

I'm watching the rush begin again. You are all aware of the pay and conditions of the LCC's you run for to say you fly a jet. That's great, but when you are there don't complain about the guys and girls that sat back and waited for a job that actually offered fair terms. A job that gave you a parking space, a job where you didn't have to pay for your uniform. a job where you were paid a training wage, a job where you had a chance of real progression, a job where you felt that you were getting treated and paid in a way that reflected the hard yards you have done where ever you flew and studied over the years.
Oh wait ! Alot of you haven't done much flying and really don't know what hard yards are do you ?! Alot of you jumped at cadetships with Qlink and Rex etc and now realise you maybe stuck for quite a while. A long while... Well no surprises there, they wanted you to stay !!! For the Crz F/O's at VOZ, well I don't even want to begin. It is sickening.
I hope this latest batch of people running for JQ and VB don't start complaining after the first few months on the pretty jets wear off but history indicates other wise.
I also hope for pilots to stop being such a selfish bunch and look out for the future conditions of fellow aviators. It has been said to death but it is SO simple. If you don't apply or show interest in these positions that offer pay and conditions that would be more suited to the unskilled labour market then the operators have to improve their game. We still need pilots (or monkeys) to "fly" these machines.
Wouldn't it be nice if your child one day showed an interest in aviation and you were able to encourage that interest ? Well I know most of us that have watched what has happened (especially over the last 10 years) would tell the little one to forget it.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Thanks Laut,
some terrific pearls of wisdom there. You make so many new and original points in your post.
Tell me, do the midgets serve full strength or only light beer in your dreamland?

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[A. Le Rhone]

...and do you and your childish bbbzz stuff ever post anything mature? I do lament for my profession when when somebody thinks their contribution to their peers is snide cynicism. Whenever I see you've posted I know it will be something stupid and again you have proved that.

Good points laut.

[laut]

Thanks A Le Rhone. Buzz - I am not claiming originality. But maybe when it is written as simply and often as I attempted here (and by others before) it may slowly sink in. I thought after the lessons learnt since the last boom people might do some more research before jumping at these jobs.
I made these points as politely as I could as this is a "professional" forum.
I have been disgusted for over ten years now that educated people still work for this garbage and others continue to buy their jobs . Not trying to be wise here Buzz, just seems that common sense isn't that common.

[psycho joe]

I thought after the lessons learnt since the last boom people might do some more research before jumping at these jobs.

What boom are you refering to?

Has there ever been a period in Australian airline history, whereby pilots were in such short supply that the airline actually and significantly in real dollar terms increased pay & conditions across the entire airline?

I would be delighted to see VIPA negotiate a better deal for VA, that is not what my post was about, it was aimed more at the suggestion that the new AIPA/VIPA alliance will bring "UNITY" to the pilot profession in Australia, which clearly, it won't

What unity has the AFAP acheived? The AFAP is only interested in itself.

Small steps. Today a couple of unions are working together If they are successful then VIPA will have proven their worth & finally a precedent of unity will have been set for future negotiations.

[novice110]

"I hope this latest batch of people running for JQ and VB don't start complaining after the first few months on the pretty jets wear off but history indicates other wise."

Could you please elaborate on this?

[neville_nobody]

If you don't apply or show interest in these positions that offer pay and conditions that would be more suited to the unskilled labour market then the operators have to improve their game

And who then is going to stay flying a busted arse 402/Metro/PA31 etc when they can get a pay rise and ride around in a flash jet?? Your argument is probably correct if you are already in a reasonable airline, however if you are suggesting that people should stay in GA vs getting into a 777 I'd be suprised if you would turn down a Crz FO job given that option.

[A. Le Rhone]

...except I as a recruiter for a 'proper' airline won't even look sideways at a QF S/O or VA Crz FO. Sorry, but those positions are irrelevant and basically amount to nothing. They may temporarily give the recipients access to pretty girls and the pretence of importance but that's all (although at QF you may have the possibility of advancing to F/O one day (???).
On the other hand if I'm recruiting somebody whose been flying around single pilot IFR in a 'busted arse 402/Metro/PA31' I will look most favourably on them. There are fewer more difficult jobs out there and no better training ground for a subsequent LHS in a jet.
If you can handle delicate piston-engine handling and Single Pilot IFR procedures in thunderstorms simultaneously tiptoeing around dubious employers you are almost a dead-set certainty for employment in my crowd.
If however you've opted for a back seat in a shiny jet I'm worried that you've become fat, lazy ans indoctrinated to avarice (especially at QF) and sorry but that's not so appealing.
I know it's a generalization but Beware the shiny jet syndrome.

[coaldemon]

So you don't look at Multi Crew background people for your " Proper" airline? Amazing. Single Pilot IFR is difficult but doesn't prove diddly when you have to work in a team and usually it is a steping stone to Multi Crew. Each to their own but I think that the rose coloured glasses are well and truly on.

[waren9]

coaldemon

You've missed the point. And, I disagree most heartliy.

Good single pilot ifr types almost always make very good team players. A Le Rhone is right.

The very fact that that they are out on their own making it happen, loading their own planes in the pissing rain at 3 in the morning, means they're already part of a small dedicated team. Just 'cause the rest of the team isnt all in the cockpit with him at the time doesnt change that fact.

Queue jumping cadet pilots, with a head full of class room theory in my experience dont carry the same work or team ethos of a hard working GA pilot who's proved himself in the field.