Unions Join Forces Against V Australia
There seems to be a few posts here aimed at the divide and conquer angle.. AIPA and VIPA should work together, what argument could there be against this? unless you try to run an airline based on minimising crewing costs! Stop the crap about motives, stop and think whether it is realistic first, what is to be gained from improving terms at v aus other than preserving our own jobs and conditions?
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High Bypass
"all found jobs elsewhere”
Where elsewhere. If you’re a 777 rated skipper at Korean/Emirates/Etihad/Singapore etc and you want to relocate back home to oz, where is the “elsewhere” job?
“My point is, if you are offered a **** sandwich, and you agree to eat it, then don't complain about the taste.”
And my point is that, for the group of people I mentioned above, there is only one sandwich on the menu in oz right now. If you don’t eat it, you go hungry. Or you stay put. Great!!!
The folks I know who took the job at Voz (and the ones I know who are keen to get in) are working crap jobs in crap places of the world and will jump into a Voz 777 in oz because there is no other 777 job on offer at home.
Welcome to the world of capitalism.
"all found jobs elsewhere”
Where elsewhere. If you’re a 777 rated skipper at Korean/Emirates/Etihad/Singapore etc and you want to relocate back home to oz, where is the “elsewhere” job?
“My point is, if you are offered a **** sandwich, and you agree to eat it, then don't complain about the taste.”
And my point is that, for the group of people I mentioned above, there is only one sandwich on the menu in oz right now. If you don’t eat it, you go hungry. Or you stay put. Great!!!
The folks I know who took the job at Voz (and the ones I know who are keen to get in) are working crap jobs in crap places of the world and will jump into a Voz 777 in oz because there is no other 777 job on offer at home.
Welcome to the world of capitalism.
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A much better explanation of unions..
Milton Friedman PBS Free to Choose 1980 Vol 8 of 10 Who Protects the Worker
Milton Friedman PBS Free to Choose 1980 Vol 8 of 10 Who Protects the Worker
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The folks I know who took the job at Voz (and the ones I know who are keen to get in) are working crap jobs in crap places of the world and will jump into a Voz 777 in oz because there is no other 777 job on offer at home.
While people are knocking down their door on the current conditions - why would they?? I don't think the current contract includes any pay rises at all. Maybe someone can confirm this with the exact wording from the contract?
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Hey P.A.F I've missed ya. Where ya been? I was looking forward to your commentary on the recent financial sh1t-fight.
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I Can't Believe I'm Having This Conversation
I Can't Believe I'm Having This Conversation 
OICUR12, where do I start?? Have you passed YR 12 English? If your friends want to fly B777 for an AUS based carrier, than V Australia is their only option, if they agree to their skit house terms and conditions.
The T & C's are the equivalent to their teenage children flipping burgers @ MCDonalds, the only difference is Dad is responsible for the welfare of 300 ppls lives everytime he goes to work and teenage son/daughter might only upset 1 or 2 customers everytime they go to work.
As i said, If you are not happy with the **** sandwiches, STAY OVERSEAS or come home to V Australia, accept whats on offer and STFU !!
If your mates want to return home, then they will have to fly something other than B777, or accept a **** sandwich.
I had to find a pre-school teacher to put this post in simple terms for you and your friends who were daydreaming of returning to OZ with B777 commands, B737 commands, tax free dollar signs etc in their eyes
OICUR12, where do I start?? Have you passed YR 12 English? If your friends want to fly B777 for an AUS based carrier, than V Australia is their only option, if they agree to their skit house terms and conditions.
The T & C's are the equivalent to their teenage children flipping burgers @ MCDonalds, the only difference is Dad is responsible for the welfare of 300 ppls lives everytime he goes to work and teenage son/daughter might only upset 1 or 2 customers everytime they go to work.
As i said, If you are not happy with the **** sandwiches, STAY OVERSEAS or come home to V Australia, accept whats on offer and STFU !!
If your mates want to return home, then they will have to fly something other than B777, or accept a **** sandwich.
I had to find a pre-school teacher to put this post in simple terms for you and your friends who were daydreaming of returning to OZ with B777 commands, B737 commands, tax free dollar signs etc in their eyes
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There is of course also the option of trying to get in with a new 777 operator from the get-go with a realistic expectation of a reasonably quick progression, join a union and work diligently towards improving the T&C's.
I find the lack of comprehension of the market forces, on behalf of some of the posters on this forum simply astounding!
VA's management will only pay as little as they can get away with, while attracting the caliber of pilots they need to operate the aircraft safely. If they payed MORE than that, they wouldn't be looking after the shareholders best interest. There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between QF,SQ CX etc. and VA in this regard. THE ONLY difference is that VA don't have to deal with several decades worth of accumulated collective bargaining power from the employee organisations, but is a greenfield operation with ample access to qualified pilots wanting a sea-change. The job ahead for those of us who have imbibed on the "**** sandwich" is to stick together to improve the quality and texture!!
But please, at the same time put all this in the RIGHT perspective - a Captain with VA currently has a salary in excess of 200K - and it will only improve as we are all coming off individual contracts onto an EBA. I'd imagine you'd have to flip A LOT of burgers at Macca's, to make that kind of money.....
Meanwhile, VA is a great place to come to work, - we're not all out of the same sausage factory - and with the new routes and aircraft coming on line over the coming years, offers an attractive alternative for those of us who have had enough of expat-life.
I find the lack of comprehension of the market forces, on behalf of some of the posters on this forum simply astounding!
VA's management will only pay as little as they can get away with, while attracting the caliber of pilots they need to operate the aircraft safely. If they payed MORE than that, they wouldn't be looking after the shareholders best interest. There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between QF,SQ CX etc. and VA in this regard. THE ONLY difference is that VA don't have to deal with several decades worth of accumulated collective bargaining power from the employee organisations, but is a greenfield operation with ample access to qualified pilots wanting a sea-change. The job ahead for those of us who have imbibed on the "**** sandwich" is to stick together to improve the quality and texture!!
But please, at the same time put all this in the RIGHT perspective - a Captain with VA currently has a salary in excess of 200K - and it will only improve as we are all coming off individual contracts onto an EBA. I'd imagine you'd have to flip A LOT of burgers at Macca's, to make that kind of money.....
Meanwhile, VA is a great place to come to work, - we're not all out of the same sausage factory - and with the new routes and aircraft coming on line over the coming years, offers an attractive alternative for those of us who have had enough of expat-life.
Last edited by Red Jet; 11th Mar 2010 at 01:32.
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Actually P.A.F I was thinking on more of a global scale. However I must agree with you, this fool and his troupe of labotomised baboons have been an absolute disaster. Anyway I digress.
I wouldn't be so quick to shoot him down Mr Buzzy V have individual contracts so if you were a Emirates 777 driver you might have been able to negotiate something in your favour at the beginning as CASA would have wanted a certain percentage of folk with time on type. However I agree the average V Captain is nowhere near that sort of salary.
However these market 'forces' are somewhat skewed by those who are independently wealthy from working at foreign airlines or those who will accept any contract just to escape the country they are currently living in.
I find the lack of comprehension of the market forces, on behalf of some of the posters on this forum simply astounding!
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However I agree the average V Captain is nowhere near that sort of salary.
Current VA Captain - (and that goes for ALL, except C&T & Training Captains who have the current industry standard additions) - base salary incl Super is AUD 201.830.
In addition to this is Loss of License Insurance, VB Group Profit Share Plan (up to 3% on top of Base Salary) and Individual Incentive Plan (Up to 5% of base salary). Allowances are payed according to local cost factor at slip port.
So - it's not great, but it's not as bad as some are making it out to be.
Those of you who have decided VA is not for you - great, enjoy whatever you're doing!
However these market 'forces' are somewhat skewed by those who are independently wealthy from working at foreign airlines or those who will accept any contract just to escape the country they are currently living in.
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Current VA Captain - (and that goes for ALL, except C&T & Training Captains who have the current industry standard additions) - base salary incl Super is AUD 201.830.
Super aside, the base salary is less than that of a B737 Skipper.
It is. V people just add super to make their salary sound higher than what it is. The reality is somewhere near 175K for a skipper. No overtime, No payment for working on a day off. At the setup stage with minimal routes it's not that bad a deal. The problem will be as it expands and you start working more and more you would want to tidy a few things in those contracts up.
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Even if it's 205k (which might sound good from a distance) the reality of living in Australia, paying tax in that bracket and trying to achieve just a little bit more than you would driving a bus or working as an accountant means this salary just doesn't go anywhere near far enough if you have kids at other than a public school and a mortgage.
The aspiration at minimum should be the Qantas salary of the mid-300's and even this by a global standard (currency variations aside) is not notable. Saying we should be happy with 205k by comparing salaries with a bus driver or shelf-stacker is irrelevant and emotive.
I might boldly predict however that as the global economy improves, disgruntled VA staff may well simply up-stumps and leave for greener/sandier pastures abroad - that was already happening at VB before the GFC. Why not work 1 year overseas for every 4 you need in Australia just to provide your family with the type of developmental possibilities we had ourselves as kids?
The aspiration at minimum should be the Qantas salary of the mid-300's and even this by a global standard (currency variations aside) is not notable. Saying we should be happy with 205k by comparing salaries with a bus driver or shelf-stacker is irrelevant and emotive.
I might boldly predict however that as the global economy improves, disgruntled VA staff may well simply up-stumps and leave for greener/sandier pastures abroad - that was already happening at VB before the GFC. Why not work 1 year overseas for every 4 you need in Australia just to provide your family with the type of developmental possibilities we had ourselves as kids?
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[QUOTE][you would want to tidy a few things in those contracts up./QUOTE]
That's precisely my point.
And the best place to do that is from the inside, rather than sitting overseas, whinging about how bad things are back home (unless that's what suits you - of course....)
And I agree that QF Long haul Agreement is the yard stick - that's what we aspire to, but again - it would be completely unrealistic to expect to achieve that sort of package from the start.
And sorry Neville Nobody - I wasn't trying to paint the picture prettier than what it is (re the super). Just giving the facts to illustrate that it is in fact slightly better than Macca's.
Cheers - RJ
That's precisely my point.
And the best place to do that is from the inside, rather than sitting overseas, whinging about how bad things are back home (unless that's what suits you - of course....)And I agree that QF Long haul Agreement is the yard stick - that's what we aspire to, but again - it would be completely unrealistic to expect to achieve that sort of package from the start.
And sorry Neville Nobody - I wasn't trying to paint the picture prettier than what it is (re the super). Just giving the facts to illustrate that it is in fact slightly better than Macca's.
Cheers - RJ