Unions Join Forces Against V Australia
A. Le Rhone,
I'm a bit confused by your post. Did you even consider that the vast majority of QF SOs (or VA Crz FOs) were flying Single Pilot IFR or Multi-Crew Regional ops before starting with QF? Sure they're sitting in the back seat now but it's not where they've always been.
I'm glad you don't work for QF, cause it would be bloody hard work sitting next to you if you don't respect your crew.
I'm a bit confused by your post. Did you even consider that the vast majority of QF SOs (or VA Crz FOs) were flying Single Pilot IFR or Multi-Crew Regional ops before starting with QF? Sure they're sitting in the back seat now but it's not where they've always been.
I'm glad you don't work for QF, cause it would be bloody hard work sitting next to you if you don't respect your crew.
..except I as a recruiter for a 'proper' airline won't even look sideways at a QF S/O or VA Crz FO.
A Le Rhone,
Your lack of knowledge on what exactly a S/O or Crz F/O is, and more importantly where they have come from, shows without a doubt that you are not a recruiter for a 'proper airline' as you say.
That having been said, if you are actually a recruiter for an airline, I would be surprised if a S/O or Crz F/O would look sideways at your airline for work once they had been offered a position 'back home'.
FYI, on my S/O course (a long time ago now), we had 2 ex military instructors, 2 experienced regional airline drivers, 2 experienced flight instructors and 2 cadets.
Your lack of knowledge on what exactly a S/O or Crz F/O is, and more importantly where they have come from, shows without a doubt that you are not a recruiter for a 'proper airline' as you say.
That having been said, if you are actually a recruiter for an airline, I would be surprised if a S/O or Crz F/O would look sideways at your airline for work once they had been offered a position 'back home'.
FYI, on my S/O course (a long time ago now), we had 2 ex military instructors, 2 experienced regional airline drivers, 2 experienced flight instructors and 2 cadets.
I think the point is not so much the value of the S/O or CFO, but the incredable shortsightedness and ignorance of VA management in exploiting their crew for what amounts to nothing more than short term gain.
But then again they (the crew) did accept a truely pathetic package. Ouch! I'm getting a headache.
But then again they (the crew) did accept a truely pathetic package. Ouch! I'm getting a headache.
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Muff Hunter's comments re the latest AIPA / Jetstar foray show a total lack of understanding of what AIPA is really about.
For a start, they are not respondents to the current EBA and should fall over at this hurdle on the basis of jurisdiction.
Secondly, Jetstar pilots would be well advised to think seriously about AIPA's motives and following them blindly .
AIPA's so called "support" for Jetstar pilots is a thinly veiled smokescreen for the real motive of getting Qantas mainline pilots command slots in Jetstar outside of seniority.
Something about herd mentality........
For a start, they are not respondents to the current EBA and should fall over at this hurdle on the basis of jurisdiction.
Secondly, Jetstar pilots would be well advised to think seriously about AIPA's motives and following them blindly .
AIPA's so called "support" for Jetstar pilots is a thinly veiled smokescreen for the real motive of getting Qantas mainline pilots command slots in Jetstar outside of seniority.
Something about herd mentality........
Nunc est bibendum
Queue jumping cadet pilots, with a head full of class room theory in my experience dont carry the same work or team ethos of a hard working GA pilot who's proved himself in the field.
However, after 15 years in QF- two of them as an S/O, ten plus as an F/O and just under two years as a Captain (those latter 12 years spent flying often with former cadets, the 'hard working GA pilot' types and even ex military types- what would I know.
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I used 'proper' airline in parenthases for a reason (after all what is a proper airline?) but yeah don't mean to denegrate any S/O or Crz F/O!
TL & One Dot - If they're good guys (most are) and try hard then the'll get everybody's respect, regardless of whether they've flown F18's, F27's or C152's. If however they've just sat by choice for 14 years in the back seat, pinch the good sandwiches and moan about the company all day then they don't!
Sorry if it's offensive but right or wrong I have found that guys fresh from banging about in C402's are usually way more suitable/capable than somebody who has been idling along (I know often not by choice) in the back seat. Similarly offensive perhaps but airlines like Emirates and Ethihad currently airlines that are recruiting, don't pay much due to SO time - it's pretty meaningless unfortunately.
With everything that's happened at QF (farming all their ops off to Jetstar) would any new SO ever get a go at a LHS? Similarly VA's career path seems even less certain. So whilst the shiny new jet syndrome may seem a good idea after years in Karratha or the circuit area at Parafield (and possibly a pay rise!!!) it may in the future be a one-way road to oblivion. Not because the SO/Crz FO is no good but because he has no value to his management - a management not interested in upgrading his skills but only interested in their own appeal to the sharemarket.
As I say, hopefully shortly most of this will be academic. Not enough bums to fill the many cockpit seats being rolled out in Toulouse and Seattle means that there should be jobs everywhere.
TL & One Dot - If they're good guys (most are) and try hard then the'll get everybody's respect, regardless of whether they've flown F18's, F27's or C152's. If however they've just sat by choice for 14 years in the back seat, pinch the good sandwiches and moan about the company all day then they don't!
Sorry if it's offensive but right or wrong I have found that guys fresh from banging about in C402's are usually way more suitable/capable than somebody who has been idling along (I know often not by choice) in the back seat. Similarly offensive perhaps but airlines like Emirates and Ethihad currently airlines that are recruiting, don't pay much due to SO time - it's pretty meaningless unfortunately.
With everything that's happened at QF (farming all their ops off to Jetstar) would any new SO ever get a go at a LHS? Similarly VA's career path seems even less certain. So whilst the shiny new jet syndrome may seem a good idea after years in Karratha or the circuit area at Parafield (and possibly a pay rise!!!) it may in the future be a one-way road to oblivion. Not because the SO/Crz FO is no good but because he has no value to his management - a management not interested in upgrading his skills but only interested in their own appeal to the sharemarket.
As I say, hopefully shortly most of this will be academic. Not enough bums to fill the many cockpit seats being rolled out in Toulouse and Seattle means that there should be jobs everywhere.
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Well Keg,
Your experiences and mine are obviously slightly different then. We're all entitled to an opinion, yours and mine happen to be different on this issue. If you are able to offer some balance to an opinion that has likewise taken me some years to form as well, then thats great.
Nothing further to add, your honour.
Your experiences and mine are obviously slightly different then. We're all entitled to an opinion, yours and mine happen to be different on this issue. If you are able to offer some balance to an opinion that has likewise taken me some years to form as well, then thats great.
Nothing further to add, your honour.
Nunc est bibendum
waren, fair enough. We'll agree to disagree. Can I ask what your background and experiences are based upon? What types of operations? What sort of time frames? What sort of cadets? Are you talking QF cadets? Rex? Others?
To take my comments further, I've often found that many ex cadets have a harder work ethic than others of different backgrounds. Many of them put more into their preparation, more effort into their review and they tend to work pretty hard in the aircraft to stay in front of it. In all cases I suspect they're well aware of their lessor experience base and are working hard to ensure that they can broaden that base as much as possible and as quickly as possible. I've seen this work ethic provide dividends when the cadet's operation runs rings around the supposedly harder working GA driver or ex military types. To sum it up, I can only think of a single cadet who I've worked with in QF who I would classify as having had a poor work ethic. I reckon that's not a bad rate when compared to the other crew that I've operated with over the years who I would put in the same basket.
Anyway, back to VIPA and AIPA working together.
To take my comments further, I've often found that many ex cadets have a harder work ethic than others of different backgrounds. Many of them put more into their preparation, more effort into their review and they tend to work pretty hard in the aircraft to stay in front of it. In all cases I suspect they're well aware of their lessor experience base and are working hard to ensure that they can broaden that base as much as possible and as quickly as possible. I've seen this work ethic provide dividends when the cadet's operation runs rings around the supposedly harder working GA driver or ex military types. To sum it up, I can only think of a single cadet who I've worked with in QF who I would classify as having had a poor work ethic. I reckon that's not a bad rate when compared to the other crew that I've operated with over the years who I would put in the same basket.
Anyway, back to VIPA and AIPA working together.
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Arctaurus and The Bolter
AIPA is doing nothing more than trying to improve job security for its members. One of the ways it can do that is by trying to enforce the provisions of the MOU on both JQ and QF management.
There is nothing "out of seniority" about a QF pilot who comes across under the MOU to JQ for a command.
If you are unhappy about the existence of the MOU then either;
1. It was voted in by a majority of your peers in 2004, or;
2. You joined JQ after that magic date in which case you signed up knowing (or should have known) the existence of the MOU.
No one has ever denied that from time to time there could be a conflict of interest between the 2 pilot groups for AIPA.
In the interests of pilot group unity, from time to time there may or may not be one side that does better than the other in some situations.
Cost of doing business and achieving a higher goal.
If you AFAP guys are going to run to the hills every time something gets a bit hard then:
1. Pilot unity and AusALPA will never happen in this country.
2. AIPA will eventually capture about 75% of all JQ pilots, rendering AFAP a redundant dinosaur because it will not be able to achieve anything with its doors closed to 2500 other very close knit and unified QF mainline pilots.
AFAP's choice.
And just because you bought it up,
If you lot are that concerned about things happening on seniority, how come AFAP showed up at FWA and defended the company position on the Right of Return dispute AIPA has regarding the DRW pilots taking commands elsewhere in the network outside of seniority?
AIPA is doing nothing more than trying to improve job security for its members. One of the ways it can do that is by trying to enforce the provisions of the MOU on both JQ and QF management.
There is nothing "out of seniority" about a QF pilot who comes across under the MOU to JQ for a command.
If you are unhappy about the existence of the MOU then either;
1. It was voted in by a majority of your peers in 2004, or;
2. You joined JQ after that magic date in which case you signed up knowing (or should have known) the existence of the MOU.
No one has ever denied that from time to time there could be a conflict of interest between the 2 pilot groups for AIPA.
In the interests of pilot group unity, from time to time there may or may not be one side that does better than the other in some situations.
Cost of doing business and achieving a higher goal.
If you AFAP guys are going to run to the hills every time something gets a bit hard then:
1. Pilot unity and AusALPA will never happen in this country.
2. AIPA will eventually capture about 75% of all JQ pilots, rendering AFAP a redundant dinosaur because it will not be able to achieve anything with its doors closed to 2500 other very close knit and unified QF mainline pilots.
AFAP's choice.
And just because you bought it up,
If you lot are that concerned about things happening on seniority, how come AFAP showed up at FWA and defended the company position on the Right of Return dispute AIPA has regarding the DRW pilots taking commands elsewhere in the network outside of seniority?
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Jetstar Airbus jobs for Qantas mainline pilots now.
Jetstar 787 jobs for Qantas mainline pilots into the future.
That's the reality of AIPA's intentions in "looking after" the Jetstar pilot group.
When AIPA's previous executive attempts to denigrate and ridicule the Jetstar pilots failed, the new executive decided that a "softly softly" approach to achieve the goal of Jetstar jobs for Qantas pilots would be more successful.
The Jetstar pilots are being hoodwinked with this "takeover by stealth" action.
There are huge industrial issues with JQ, VA etc etc and we need a "BALPA like" umbrella organisation in Australia that does not have the political agendas that AIPA and AFAP have now.
Jetstar 787 jobs for Qantas mainline pilots into the future.
That's the reality of AIPA's intentions in "looking after" the Jetstar pilot group.
When AIPA's previous executive attempts to denigrate and ridicule the Jetstar pilots failed, the new executive decided that a "softly softly" approach to achieve the goal of Jetstar jobs for Qantas pilots would be more successful.
The Jetstar pilots are being hoodwinked with this "takeover by stealth" action.
There are huge industrial issues with JQ, VA etc etc and we need a "BALPA like" umbrella organisation in Australia that does not have the political agendas that AIPA and AFAP have now.
Many of my colleagues aren't that motivated (strangely, I don't know why?
) to forego conditions and gain added responsibility so they can be paid less, just to swap three gold for four silver. How much is a strip of metal fabric worth? Consequently, we are encouraged by VIPA and AIPA and don't see it as some political subterfuge but a way forward where we can all share in better terms and conditions. If we become united we become market makers not market takers, quite simple really.
) to forego conditions and gain added responsibility so they can be paid less, just to swap three gold for four silver. How much is a strip of metal fabric worth? Consequently, we are encouraged by VIPA and AIPA and don't see it as some political subterfuge but a way forward where we can all share in better terms and conditions. If we become united we become market makers not market takers, quite simple really.
Last edited by maggotdriver; 24th Feb 2010 at 21:42.
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I think this sums it up.....
FRANCIS: Once in the sewer, timing will be of the essence. There is a management feast later in the evening, so we must move fast, and don't wear your best flying boots. Turning left here, we enter the Oldmeadow-Farrough memorial sewer and from there, proceed directly to the hypocaust. This has just been re-tiled, so pilots, careful with those weapons. We will now be directly beneath FWA audience chamber itself. This is the moment for Habbakuk to get out his prong.
[chink chink chink]
[thuk thuk chink chink chink chink chink]
[thump thump thump thump]
[suspenseful music]
[heartbeat]
AIPA: Shhh! Shh. Shhh. Shh.
DEADLY DIRK: Australian and International Pilots Association!!
FRANCIS: Oh. Uh, Australian Federation of Air Pilots. Officials.
DEADLY DIRK: Oh.
FRANCIS: What's your group doing here?
DEADLY DIRK: We're going to kidnap uncommitted pilots, take them back, issue demands.
FRANCIS: So are we.
DEADLY DIRK: What?
FRANCIS: That's our plan!
DEADLY DIRK: We were here first!
FRANCIS: What do you mean?!
DEADLY DIRK: We thought of it first!
WARRIS: Oh, yeah?
DEADLY DIRK: Yes, a couple of years ago!
AFAP.: Ha. Heh. Ha ha.
DEADLY DIRK: We did!
FRANCIS: Okay, c-- co-- come on. You got all your demands worked out, then?
DEADLY DIRK: 'Course we have.
FRANCIS: What are they?
DEADLY DIRK: Well, I'm not telling you.
AFAP.: Aghhh...
FRANCIS: Oh, come on. Pull the other one.
AIPA.: Shh!
DEADLY DIRK: That's not the point! We thought of it before you!
WARRIS: Did not.
DEADLY DIRK: We did!
FRANCIS: You didn't.
AFAP.: We bloody did!
BRIAN: Shhhh!
AIPA.: Shhhhh! Shh.
DEADLY DIRK: You bastards! We've been planning this for months.
FRANCIS: Well, tough titty for you, Fish Face. Oh! Oh.
RANDOM: All right.
WARRIS: Clever. You sly...
BRIAN: Brothers! Brothers! We should be struggling together!
FRANCIS: We are! Ohh.
BRIAN: We mustn't fight each other! Surely we should be united against the common enemy!
EVERYONE: The Virgin Pilots Association?!?!!?
BRIAN: No, no! Airline management!
EVERYONE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
FRANCIS: Yeah. He's right.
RANDOM: Look out!
RANDOM: Careful.
[footsteps]
DEADLY DIRK: Right! Where were we?
FRANCIS: Uhh, you were going to punch me.
DEADLY DIRK: Oh, yeah.
[AIPA and AFAP fight]
BRIAN: Brothers! [whop] Oof!
Nothing changes...........
FRANCIS: Once in the sewer, timing will be of the essence. There is a management feast later in the evening, so we must move fast, and don't wear your best flying boots. Turning left here, we enter the Oldmeadow-Farrough memorial sewer and from there, proceed directly to the hypocaust. This has just been re-tiled, so pilots, careful with those weapons. We will now be directly beneath FWA audience chamber itself. This is the moment for Habbakuk to get out his prong.
[chink chink chink]
[thuk thuk chink chink chink chink chink]
[thump thump thump thump]
[suspenseful music]
[heartbeat]
AIPA: Shhh! Shh. Shhh. Shh.
DEADLY DIRK: Australian and International Pilots Association!!
FRANCIS: Oh. Uh, Australian Federation of Air Pilots. Officials.
DEADLY DIRK: Oh.
FRANCIS: What's your group doing here?
DEADLY DIRK: We're going to kidnap uncommitted pilots, take them back, issue demands.
FRANCIS: So are we.
DEADLY DIRK: What?
FRANCIS: That's our plan!
DEADLY DIRK: We were here first!
FRANCIS: What do you mean?!
DEADLY DIRK: We thought of it first!
WARRIS: Oh, yeah?
DEADLY DIRK: Yes, a couple of years ago!
AFAP.: Ha. Heh. Ha ha.
DEADLY DIRK: We did!
FRANCIS: Okay, c-- co-- come on. You got all your demands worked out, then?
DEADLY DIRK: 'Course we have.
FRANCIS: What are they?
DEADLY DIRK: Well, I'm not telling you.
AFAP.: Aghhh...
FRANCIS: Oh, come on. Pull the other one.
AIPA.: Shh!
DEADLY DIRK: That's not the point! We thought of it before you!
WARRIS: Did not.
DEADLY DIRK: We did!
FRANCIS: You didn't.
AFAP.: We bloody did!
BRIAN: Shhhh!
AIPA.: Shhhhh! Shh.
DEADLY DIRK: You bastards! We've been planning this for months.
FRANCIS: Well, tough titty for you, Fish Face. Oh! Oh.
RANDOM: All right.
WARRIS: Clever. You sly...
BRIAN: Brothers! Brothers! We should be struggling together!
FRANCIS: We are! Ohh.
BRIAN: We mustn't fight each other! Surely we should be united against the common enemy!
EVERYONE: The Virgin Pilots Association?!?!!?
BRIAN: No, no! Airline management!
EVERYONE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
FRANCIS: Yeah. He's right.
RANDOM: Look out!
RANDOM: Careful.
[footsteps]
DEADLY DIRK: Right! Where were we?
FRANCIS: Uhh, you were going to punch me.
DEADLY DIRK: Oh, yeah.
[AIPA and AFAP fight]
BRIAN: Brothers! [whop] Oof!
Nothing changes...........