Team AIPA blames others for poor showing at FWA
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Shark Patrol, forgive me if I have misinterpreted your post, however I have been trying to decipher just exactly what is irony in this case.
If I am to assume the reference of irony is related to the air of sarcasm regarding Transition Layers "handle" - with my "Rise above your name" statement - The irony you're implying is related to my handle "titan uranus" (your inference being best decribed by the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black"). The suggestion being, how ironic that I should be sarcastic of such an handle, when my handle is also open for ridicule.
If this is the case, then irony may not be the correct word:
Whilst a complex scenario in english to describe, it could in fact be a Tu Quoque .
Tu quoque (pronounced /tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/, from Latin for "You, too" or "You, also") is a Latin term that describes a kind of logical fallacy. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[1]
Tu Quoque: Legitimate use
Not all uses of tu quoque arguments involve logical fallacy. One convenient and not fallacious way [to use tu quoque] is by pointing out the similarities between the activity of the criticizer and the activity about which he is being questioned. To label one [something] and not the other is ... itself a fallacy [of equivocation]. [...] Tu quoque is only a fallacy when one uses it so as to divert attention from the issue at hand, or to avoid or fail to respond to an argument that non-fallaciously gave one the burden of proof.[3]
[edit]
As opposed to :
Irony (from the Ancient Greek εἰρωνεία eirōneía, meaning hypocrisy, deception, or feigned ignorance) is a situation, literary technique, or rhetorical device, in which there is an incongruity, discordance, or unintended connection with truth, that goes strikingly beyond the most simple and evident meaning of words or actions.
Verbal and situational irony is often intentionally used as emphasis in an assertion of a truth. The ironic form of simile, or the irony of sarcasm or litotes may involve the emphasis of one's meaning by deliberate use of language that states the direct opposite of the truth, or which drastically and obviously understates a factual connection.
In saying this however, it is possible your reference is more technically verbal irony.. As irony has an intrinsic meaning of something having to be "opposite", maybe your point is that I am oblivious to the pun intended by my handle titan uranus, suggesting that whilst there is room for ridicule in Transition Layers, there isn't in mine. For example, a statement; "you're very ugly, and fortunately I'm not" (when in fact I am ugly). This situation could be described as a form of verbal irony I guess?
If the latter is the case, and this is a meant as verbal irony as opposed to straight irony or a Tu Quoque, then I can lay the matter to rest by pointing out that I am aware my handle titan uranus is indeed a pun , and subsequently open for potential ridicule.
Edited to give credit to internet site "Wikipedia" for the definitions of Tu Quoque and Irony.
If I am to assume the reference of irony is related to the air of sarcasm regarding Transition Layers "handle" - with my "Rise above your name" statement - The irony you're implying is related to my handle "titan uranus" (your inference being best decribed by the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black"). The suggestion being, how ironic that I should be sarcastic of such an handle, when my handle is also open for ridicule.
If this is the case, then irony may not be the correct word:
Whilst a complex scenario in english to describe, it could in fact be a Tu Quoque .
Tu quoque (pronounced /tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/, from Latin for "You, too" or "You, also") is a Latin term that describes a kind of logical fallacy. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[1]
Tu Quoque: Legitimate use
Not all uses of tu quoque arguments involve logical fallacy. One convenient and not fallacious way [to use tu quoque] is by pointing out the similarities between the activity of the criticizer and the activity about which he is being questioned. To label one [something] and not the other is ... itself a fallacy [of equivocation]. [...] Tu quoque is only a fallacy when one uses it so as to divert attention from the issue at hand, or to avoid or fail to respond to an argument that non-fallaciously gave one the burden of proof.[3]
[edit]
As opposed to :
Irony (from the Ancient Greek εἰρωνεία eirōneía, meaning hypocrisy, deception, or feigned ignorance) is a situation, literary technique, or rhetorical device, in which there is an incongruity, discordance, or unintended connection with truth, that goes strikingly beyond the most simple and evident meaning of words or actions.
Verbal and situational irony is often intentionally used as emphasis in an assertion of a truth. The ironic form of simile, or the irony of sarcasm or litotes may involve the emphasis of one's meaning by deliberate use of language that states the direct opposite of the truth, or which drastically and obviously understates a factual connection.
In saying this however, it is possible your reference is more technically verbal irony.. As irony has an intrinsic meaning of something having to be "opposite", maybe your point is that I am oblivious to the pun intended by my handle titan uranus, suggesting that whilst there is room for ridicule in Transition Layers, there isn't in mine. For example, a statement; "you're very ugly, and fortunately I'm not" (when in fact I am ugly). This situation could be described as a form of verbal irony I guess?
If the latter is the case, and this is a meant as verbal irony as opposed to straight irony or a Tu Quoque, then I can lay the matter to rest by pointing out that I am aware my handle titan uranus is indeed a pun , and subsequently open for potential ridicule.
Edited to give credit to internet site "Wikipedia" for the definitions of Tu Quoque and Irony.
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Ahhh the "get a life" adage. Well worn and a tad 80's, but it definately struck me to the depths of my soul indamiddle.
I do apologise, as you're absolutely right. The thread, it's contents and participants are far more thought provoking, important and intelligent.
Please...carry on...
I do apologise, as you're absolutely right. The thread, it's contents and participants are far more thought provoking, important and intelligent.
Please...carry on...
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I commence with the admission that I am not an employee of either J* or Qantas nor am I a member of the AIPA or AFAP. What I am is a professional aviator who has worked in our industry for 25 years. In this period I have worked for 2 GA companies, 3 low capacity airlines and 6 high capacity airlines. I note that this thread revolves around the actions of AFAP in supporting some members who were apparently allocated promotions discordant with company “seniority lists”. This action has evidently caused anger within elements of the J*, QF and other pilot ranks, yet leaves me puzzled regarding why ‘seniority’ remains such a sacred cow within the airline industrial paradigm. There is no doubt that this post will result in some irrational responses, hopefully there will be some rational input and I welcome this, even where well thought out opinion contradicts my own argument.
It is time that promotion based on datal seniority is finally killed off. In an industry such as ours where lack of ability or knowledge can has calamitous consequences, the only appropriate promotional axiom is one that is based on merit. Promotions should and must be awarded to the best, most suitable and most experienced candidate. Datal seniority results in a triumph of the mediocre; whilst all candidates must meet a minimum standard, the result is simply the perpetuation of a minimum standard. Competition for promotion drives candidates to excel and better themselves and their knowledge base as their future prospects depend on it. The result is that we will have a more knowledgeable and professional industrial standard.
In the last 10 years our industry has simultaneously witnessed:
1. An explosion in PRKs/Hours flown/Types on register and
2. A decrease in terms and conditions
Under normalised economic circumstances, this should not happen. As demand for experienced pilots should generate better T&Cs as new or expanding companies seek to attract a competent, well qualified workforce and existing companies need to retain existing staff who may be lured by better conditions and opportunities elsewhere. This is Economics 101 and should be easily understandable. So why have the T&Cs generally declined (note use of generally)(1)? The economic theory expressed as the Laws of Supply and Demand apply in an unregulated environment. Supply and Demand is circumvented when regulation exists (economists often design regulation specifically to manipulate market forces). In our case, datal seniority is the regulatory factor that messes with the laws of S&D that should have resulted in enhanced conditions for pilots.
Seniority means that the supply of promotional opportunity is artificially decreased; pilots will not leave their existing company as they then have to start “at the bottom of the list” again. Promotional opportunities are effectively limited to those within your own company. Thus, employers have a captive, trapped workforce and they know it! They know that they don’t have to offer a better deal because pilots “don’t want to lose their seniority” if they move to another company. So essentially, the 90% of J* pilots who (according to Cox of the AFAP) voted for seniority also voted for a pay cut – for themselves and everybody else in the industry.
Over the years I have heard many arguments that support the concept of seniority based promotion and in the final analysis, I can find very little compelling reasons for its retention. The ‘pros’ for seniority are:
1. It is a ‘fair’ system.
2. It rewards longstanding employees for their loyalty.
3. Seniority prevents”brown nosing”.
4. Everybody knows where they stand in the scheme of things.
5.Everyone gets a chance at promotion when their turn comes.
6. Etc...
However against these points:
1. In what way is seniority “fair”? To whom is this fairness extended to?
2. True. It is good to reward longstanding employees. However this can still be accomplished in other ways, such as choice of basing, staff travel, act..
3.A dysfunctional management will always reward brown noses and find jobs for “mates” despite a seniority list (I’ve seen it happen...). Ethical management would ensure that company brown noses who expect a ‘reward’ are not promoted on this basis. At the same time, it should be recognised that some people have a legitimate desire to involve themselves in activities other than flying the aeroplane. However, this factor should not form part of an objective promotional paradigm.
4. True enough
5. Is an airline a commercial enterprise or an aero club? Not all pilots are suitable for a command and they should be mentored appropriately.
My argument is that Merit Based Promotion should form the basis of future Airline Pilot Industrial awards for the following reasons:
1.Allows us to find T&Cs that reflect our true market worth.
2. Would lead to an increase in promotional opportunities within the industry
3. Increases operational standards and expertise.
4. Ensures that the “best person for the job” gets it.
5. Prevents the loss of corporate/industrial knowledge when crews are laid off - many pilots simply leave the industtry when laid off as they dont want to be a SO again.
6. Provides a “safety net” with chance of re-employment on a similar status when pilots are laid off
7.Allows assignments for “political” reasons – sometimes these are commercially and/or operationally desirable
I have attempted to offer this argument objectively and with the aim of betterment of the pilot fraternity. I lack the time to respond fully to counter arguments and will probably not bother to respond to the inevitable flaming that I know I will receive from some quarters.
AIPA and AFAP are in this to protect the interests of their members, even at the expense of others. I think a unified pilot group is essential for our future but think, quite clearly, that datal seniority should not an element of our future industrial landscape.
(1) Many pilots have left 'seniority based companies for DE positions - resulting in increased terms and conditions for themselves, I suppose some would call this "Que Jumping".
It is time that promotion based on datal seniority is finally killed off. In an industry such as ours where lack of ability or knowledge can has calamitous consequences, the only appropriate promotional axiom is one that is based on merit. Promotions should and must be awarded to the best, most suitable and most experienced candidate. Datal seniority results in a triumph of the mediocre; whilst all candidates must meet a minimum standard, the result is simply the perpetuation of a minimum standard. Competition for promotion drives candidates to excel and better themselves and their knowledge base as their future prospects depend on it. The result is that we will have a more knowledgeable and professional industrial standard.
In the last 10 years our industry has simultaneously witnessed:
1. An explosion in PRKs/Hours flown/Types on register and
2. A decrease in terms and conditions
Under normalised economic circumstances, this should not happen. As demand for experienced pilots should generate better T&Cs as new or expanding companies seek to attract a competent, well qualified workforce and existing companies need to retain existing staff who may be lured by better conditions and opportunities elsewhere. This is Economics 101 and should be easily understandable. So why have the T&Cs generally declined (note use of generally)(1)? The economic theory expressed as the Laws of Supply and Demand apply in an unregulated environment. Supply and Demand is circumvented when regulation exists (economists often design regulation specifically to manipulate market forces). In our case, datal seniority is the regulatory factor that messes with the laws of S&D that should have resulted in enhanced conditions for pilots.
Seniority means that the supply of promotional opportunity is artificially decreased; pilots will not leave their existing company as they then have to start “at the bottom of the list” again. Promotional opportunities are effectively limited to those within your own company. Thus, employers have a captive, trapped workforce and they know it! They know that they don’t have to offer a better deal because pilots “don’t want to lose their seniority” if they move to another company. So essentially, the 90% of J* pilots who (according to Cox of the AFAP) voted for seniority also voted for a pay cut – for themselves and everybody else in the industry.
Over the years I have heard many arguments that support the concept of seniority based promotion and in the final analysis, I can find very little compelling reasons for its retention. The ‘pros’ for seniority are:
1. It is a ‘fair’ system.
2. It rewards longstanding employees for their loyalty.
3. Seniority prevents”brown nosing”.
4. Everybody knows where they stand in the scheme of things.
5.Everyone gets a chance at promotion when their turn comes.
6. Etc...
However against these points:
1. In what way is seniority “fair”? To whom is this fairness extended to?
2. True. It is good to reward longstanding employees. However this can still be accomplished in other ways, such as choice of basing, staff travel, act..
3.A dysfunctional management will always reward brown noses and find jobs for “mates” despite a seniority list (I’ve seen it happen...). Ethical management would ensure that company brown noses who expect a ‘reward’ are not promoted on this basis. At the same time, it should be recognised that some people have a legitimate desire to involve themselves in activities other than flying the aeroplane. However, this factor should not form part of an objective promotional paradigm.
4. True enough
5. Is an airline a commercial enterprise or an aero club? Not all pilots are suitable for a command and they should be mentored appropriately.
My argument is that Merit Based Promotion should form the basis of future Airline Pilot Industrial awards for the following reasons:
1.Allows us to find T&Cs that reflect our true market worth.
2. Would lead to an increase in promotional opportunities within the industry
3. Increases operational standards and expertise.
4. Ensures that the “best person for the job” gets it.
5. Prevents the loss of corporate/industrial knowledge when crews are laid off - many pilots simply leave the industtry when laid off as they dont want to be a SO again.
6. Provides a “safety net” with chance of re-employment on a similar status when pilots are laid off
7.Allows assignments for “political” reasons – sometimes these are commercially and/or operationally desirable
I have attempted to offer this argument objectively and with the aim of betterment of the pilot fraternity. I lack the time to respond fully to counter arguments and will probably not bother to respond to the inevitable flaming that I know I will receive from some quarters.
AIPA and AFAP are in this to protect the interests of their members, even at the expense of others. I think a unified pilot group is essential for our future but think, quite clearly, that datal seniority should not an element of our future industrial landscape.
(1) Many pilots have left 'seniority based companies for DE positions - resulting in increased terms and conditions for themselves, I suppose some would call this "Que Jumping".
Last edited by Anthill; 23rd Jan 2010 at 03:53.
titan,
That's brilliant, coming from a bloke called titan uranus. Your pseudonym is about as funny as my Cox/Balls joke anyway.
Moving onto more important things, you bring up an interesting and valid point. There is definitely a generational change underway amongst Australian pilots and yes it is apparent on pprune and elsewhere.
Some of the older generation (those who went through '89, the collapse of AN etc) have in the past 5 years been very keen to secure work back in Australia, whether that be with Virgin/Jetstar/Tiger/V Aus whatever. Many of them did very well overseas, with very nice pay packets, free endorsements and probably a pretty good retirement fund set-up.
Of course they want to spend the twilight of their lives back in Australia (don't we all), their kids probably just starting high school or uni. However, in the process, they were willing to negotiate or accept conditions lower than what they may have previously consider reasonable, simply because they could afford to do so. And who would blame them really?
Enter the new generation, ex-GA, regionals, military whatever. We also want to work in Australia and fly jets, but many are now faced with the prospect of paying for endorsements and much lower terms and conditions. Whilst that has been the general trend of the industry overseas for a while, I can't help but think it has been accelerated here in Australia because of the abundance of ex-foreign pilots keen to get back home.
These days, most young pilots have the choice of which airline to apply to, and we all have mates flying for the competition, who we worked with in a past life. There is no bitterness amongst us about who screwed who in '89, or who was to blame for the collapse of AN. We respect history, but many of us played no part in it.
I believe a unified Australian pilot body will become much easier to achieve as time goes on, once the old guard with long memories have moved on. I just hope by the time it happens it's not too late.
Don't panic mate, I giggle when someone farts, or says penis too
Moving onto more important things, you bring up an interesting and valid point. There is definitely a generational change underway amongst Australian pilots and yes it is apparent on pprune and elsewhere.
Some of the older generation (those who went through '89, the collapse of AN etc) have in the past 5 years been very keen to secure work back in Australia, whether that be with Virgin/Jetstar/Tiger/V Aus whatever. Many of them did very well overseas, with very nice pay packets, free endorsements and probably a pretty good retirement fund set-up.
Of course they want to spend the twilight of their lives back in Australia (don't we all), their kids probably just starting high school or uni. However, in the process, they were willing to negotiate or accept conditions lower than what they may have previously consider reasonable, simply because they could afford to do so. And who would blame them really?
Enter the new generation, ex-GA, regionals, military whatever. We also want to work in Australia and fly jets, but many are now faced with the prospect of paying for endorsements and much lower terms and conditions. Whilst that has been the general trend of the industry overseas for a while, I can't help but think it has been accelerated here in Australia because of the abundance of ex-foreign pilots keen to get back home.
These days, most young pilots have the choice of which airline to apply to, and we all have mates flying for the competition, who we worked with in a past life. There is no bitterness amongst us about who screwed who in '89, or who was to blame for the collapse of AN. We respect history, but many of us played no part in it.
I believe a unified Australian pilot body will become much easier to achieve as time goes on, once the old guard with long memories have moved on. I just hope by the time it happens it's not too late.
The AFAP seem to be increasingly struggling for relevance in the workplace. Its interesting to note that in the J* Mel crew room under the AIPA sign is plenty of info on what is going on. Under the AFAP sign (which is upside down) is just brown corkboard as they have nothing to say.
TL- I had to laugh at your reference to pilots coming back with retirement funds set up. Since when have pilots ever been financially responsible? Look at all the over 60's. I don't think they are still flying because they love the early morning starts and BOC.
TL- I had to laugh at your reference to pilots coming back with retirement funds set up. Since when have pilots ever been financially responsible? Look at all the over 60's. I don't think they are still flying because they love the early morning starts and BOC.
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Delightful prose Titan Uranus. Joyful reading 
Anthill's ideas are likewise enlightened. Gelly spined GA puppie pilots are terrified of an industry with reduced seniority privilege. The only thing they own, their only credit, is start date. And dont they squawk under pressure.
The real irony here is that youth advocates stutus quo?? What a screwed up industry.
Command should never be a RIGHT, other airlines regard it RESPONSIBLITY. Responsibility for everything. And command should not be handed out like a three year retention bonus.
Instead of opening ones mouth in anticipation of the expected chocolate, I would be impressed (amazed) if one day I witnessed a Australian GA Airbus Astronaut open his FCOM or enroute chart instead.
Mostly, all I see and hear, are noisy seagulls.
Anthill's ideas are likewise enlightened. Gelly spined GA puppie pilots are terrified of an industry with reduced seniority privilege. The only thing they own, their only credit, is start date. And dont they squawk under pressure.
The real irony here is that youth advocates stutus quo?? What a screwed up industry.
Command should never be a RIGHT, other airlines regard it RESPONSIBLITY. Responsibility for everything. And command should not be handed out like a three year retention bonus.
Instead of opening ones mouth in anticipation of the expected chocolate, I would be impressed (amazed) if one day I witnessed a Australian GA Airbus Astronaut open his FCOM or enroute chart instead.
Mostly, all I see and hear, are noisy seagulls.
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Walter E. Kurtz
Your self-righteous posts are really becoming a pain in the arse - so much so as to force one out of posting retirement.
What a self loving bore you are.
Oh, and get your own name next time.
From THE REAL COL. WALTER E. KURTZ
Your self-righteous posts are really becoming a pain in the arse - so much so as to force one out of posting retirement.
What a self loving bore you are.
Oh, and get your own name next time.
From THE REAL COL. WALTER E. KURTZ
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TL - great post as per usual.
Because people are from another generation, why do you talk down to them Walter?
Anthill, Seniority and sound training standards will cover all your hoodoos over promoting through seniority.
Seniority stiffling conditions - thats crap. If you throw away seniority, you'll have pilots from overseas screaming for DEC and will do it at any price to get out of ****holes and raise their families in our great country. I'll bet the QF, Jetstars and VB would love that. The race to the bottom would well and truly be on should seniority be bypassed at infinitum!
Because people are from another generation, why do you talk down to them Walter?
Anthill, Seniority and sound training standards will cover all your hoodoos over promoting through seniority.
Seniority stiffling conditions - thats crap. If you throw away seniority, you'll have pilots from overseas screaming for DEC and will do it at any price to get out of ****holes and raise their families in our great country. I'll bet the QF, Jetstars and VB would love that. The race to the bottom would well and truly be on should seniority be bypassed at infinitum!
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FOR THE RECORD
AT NO TIME IN THE HISTORY OF JQ AND RECRUITMENT OF DEC'S HAS THERE BEEN ANY ORGANISED INDUSTRIAL MOVEMENT TO PREVENT IT HAPPENING. NO IFALPA BACKED RECRUITMENT BAN HAS EVER BEEN PUT IN PLACE.
Anyone with any industrial know-how will understand the significance of this point.
RAMBO and TL; You are trying to retrospectively alienate the DEC. You have no grounds for your allegation that they have done anything wrong in joining JQ. It may seem safe to mouth off anonymously on this forum, but be really cautious where else you try it on.
JQ would not have had the ability to grow to its current size without them.
If you are both as "senior" as you make out, then it all happened on your watch.
Transition Layer; Yes, my endorsement was paid for by my employer, as well as all the other trappings that come with expatriate lifestyle.
If I may be so bold, that may be perceived as being quite savvy about how one has approached one's career...no?
Thanks Walter E..
...and as for Col. Walter, posting retirement suited you better.
And Drshmoo; I can tell you why Walter E has talk down to some of these cretins...based on the diatribe of disrespectful garbage I read from the children of GEN Y on this site, talking "down" to one of them is actually remarkably restrained. And by the way, no-one suggests seniority should entirely be disregarded, just not a form of stoic datal seniority.
I suspect some of you are just scared of having to step up to the plate, and retreat behind datal seniority as a defence mechanism perhaps?
Put yourself in our shoes:
Half the FO's I fly with either came directly from GA, or spent no more than a year in a regional carrier. Some have the demeanour that they've now somehow served their apprenticeship and are on sites like this complaining not actually about not getting a jet command under 30, but the fact they may have to move to Darwin to get it!
I'm sorry if I don't feel overly concerned for their plight. Now I do generalise, some are great and I will do all I can to help those with a reasonable attitude, those without I simply couldn't care less about.
One FO brags about how he was requested to "update" his hours for command consideration - he is a well know trouble maker - he has 5,000 hours total time - has never left the same postcode throughout his aviation career - hates the company - won't move to Darwin - hates the concept of RoR - stoically and proudly states he will never leave Melbourne for a command - claims to be an industrial expert - is a whining pain in the arse to fly with.
My heart.. and many other hearts - naturally bleed with sympathy.
Mind you, half the check and training department, whom he shall need on side, are of course vastly more experienced DEC's. I'm sure his persona will be nothing shy of total sweetness for that month and a half...
For perspective, I came from a time when you needed about 3,000 hours to get a RHS in a regional turbo prop - with an average of 8 years to command in that same turbo prop - and let's not even start talking about what it took to get to fly a jet (especially in Australia).
AT NO TIME IN THE HISTORY OF JQ AND RECRUITMENT OF DEC'S HAS THERE BEEN ANY ORGANISED INDUSTRIAL MOVEMENT TO PREVENT IT HAPPENING. NO IFALPA BACKED RECRUITMENT BAN HAS EVER BEEN PUT IN PLACE.
Anyone with any industrial know-how will understand the significance of this point.
RAMBO and TL; You are trying to retrospectively alienate the DEC. You have no grounds for your allegation that they have done anything wrong in joining JQ. It may seem safe to mouth off anonymously on this forum, but be really cautious where else you try it on.
JQ would not have had the ability to grow to its current size without them.
If you are both as "senior" as you make out, then it all happened on your watch.
Transition Layer; Yes, my endorsement was paid for by my employer, as well as all the other trappings that come with expatriate lifestyle.
If I may be so bold, that may be perceived as being quite savvy about how one has approached one's career...no?
Thanks Walter E..
...and as for Col. Walter, posting retirement suited you better.
And Drshmoo; I can tell you why Walter E has talk down to some of these cretins...based on the diatribe of disrespectful garbage I read from the children of GEN Y on this site, talking "down" to one of them is actually remarkably restrained. And by the way, no-one suggests seniority should entirely be disregarded, just not a form of stoic datal seniority.
I suspect some of you are just scared of having to step up to the plate, and retreat behind datal seniority as a defence mechanism perhaps?
Put yourself in our shoes:
Half the FO's I fly with either came directly from GA, or spent no more than a year in a regional carrier. Some have the demeanour that they've now somehow served their apprenticeship and are on sites like this complaining not actually about not getting a jet command under 30, but the fact they may have to move to Darwin to get it!
I'm sorry if I don't feel overly concerned for their plight. Now I do generalise, some are great and I will do all I can to help those with a reasonable attitude, those without I simply couldn't care less about.
One FO brags about how he was requested to "update" his hours for command consideration - he is a well know trouble maker - he has 5,000 hours total time - has never left the same postcode throughout his aviation career - hates the company - won't move to Darwin - hates the concept of RoR - stoically and proudly states he will never leave Melbourne for a command - claims to be an industrial expert - is a whining pain in the arse to fly with.
My heart.. and many other hearts - naturally bleed with sympathy.
Mind you, half the check and training department, whom he shall need on side, are of course vastly more experienced DEC's. I'm sure his persona will be nothing shy of total sweetness for that month and a half...
For perspective, I came from a time when you needed about 3,000 hours to get a RHS in a regional turbo prop - with an average of 8 years to command in that same turbo prop - and let's not even start talking about what it took to get to fly a jet (especially in Australia).
Last edited by titan uranus; 23rd Jan 2010 at 07:51.
For perspective, I came from a time when you needed about 3,000 hours to get a RHS in a regional turbo prop - with an average of 8 years to command in that same turbo prop
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Goodonya,
Those days Titan mentioned may be over, But I for one won't get over it particularly when you tell me to - in those days I used to get on any Australian airline as a pax and feel very confident that the guys up front knew what they were doing based on many hours of training and experience. These days, I fly with a deal of concern over the low experience levels and immaturity (aptly demonstarted on this forum) of some of those up front. By the way, I have been flying up front myself for 35 years, so I do know what I am talking about.
Those days Titan mentioned may be over, But I for one won't get over it particularly when you tell me to - in those days I used to get on any Australian airline as a pax and feel very confident that the guys up front knew what they were doing based on many hours of training and experience. These days, I fly with a deal of concern over the low experience levels and immaturity (aptly demonstarted on this forum) of some of those up front. By the way, I have been flying up front myself for 35 years, so I do know what I am talking about.
Culture
Early in the piece when Qantas set up Jetstar, AJ stated he didn't want QF pilots coming over.
Something about polluting the JQ culture.
From these posts, he's appears to have done a pretty good job himself!
Something about polluting the JQ culture.
From these posts, he's appears to have done a pretty good job himself!
Titan,
Gen X actually...
However I am sick of listening to those in 'early' Gen x crap on about how all Gen Yers are ' i want it now' people... you're probably sick of hearing some Gen Yers crap on about how they should be given a command after 6 months. (for the record, i dont agree with that either...)
I do believe its time some of these guys got over 'how it was done in their day' Fact is, times have changed, Transition Layer raises an interesting point as to one of the roots of these changes....
Enjoy
Gen X actually...
However I am sick of listening to those in 'early' Gen x crap on about how all Gen Yers are ' i want it now' people... you're probably sick of hearing some Gen Yers crap on about how they should be given a command after 6 months. (for the record, i dont agree with that either...)
I do believe its time some of these guys got over 'how it was done in their day' Fact is, times have changed, Transition Layer raises an interesting point as to one of the roots of these changes....
Enjoy
Titan Uranus
Gee, all that stuff just because i dared to use the word "irony" to describe part of your post!!
You must be a pain-in-the-butt to fly with. Maybe that's how you got your handle
Gee, all that stuff just because i dared to use the word "irony" to describe part of your post!!
You must be a pain-in-the-butt to fly with. Maybe that's how you got your handle
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Drshmoo, thank you for responding. However, I respectfully feel that there are some aspects to your statements that need a response:
In a perfect training world this statement would be true. The statement also assumes that all of us are created as equals. Clearly we are not.
This is partly correct. DEC will mean that you will have to compete for positions with people who have greater qualifications and experience than you do. For reasons that I have already described this is reasonable. Many pilots have returned from overseas to J*, VB and VA as DECs. These people have made a significant contribution to the industry over the years and have wealth of experience to offer. On the other hand, the company may well see an advantage in internal promotion based on merit.
Immigration laws prohibit the senario you describe, so you do not have to worry about this in reality. If there were such opportunity, the overseas employers would have to lift T&Cs for their nationals to retain a proficient workforce.
sound training standards will cover all your hoodoos over promoting through seniority.
If you throw away seniority, you'll have pilots from overseas screaming for DEC and will do it at any price to get out of ****holes and raise their families in our great country. I'll bet the QF, Jetstars and VB would love that. The race to the bottom would well and truly be on should seniority be bypassed at infinitum!
Immigration laws prohibit the senario you describe, so you do not have to worry about this in reality. If there were such opportunity, the overseas employers would have to lift T&Cs for their nationals to retain a proficient workforce.
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For the record I had about 2500 total, with 1000 IFR PA31 time before I even sniffed a turbo prop F/O slot. Was lucky enough to get a command on a metro after about 500 hours after that. Then was lucky enough after 1000 turbine to jag a B737 F/O slot at VB prior to the first big intake but chose to be an S/O at QF instead because of a variety of reasons. My opportunities at VB would now be well in the rear vision mirror as far as EMB commands go, but Im all about waiting my turn. You hark on about hard yards but I know there are are plenty at Jetstar that have lots of GA and Regional experience. Let the self ritious idiots that the world owes them a command get hammered by the old guard if they don't meet standards but the ones that meet company mins and are approved cause they meet the standard should have first right of command training. I know plenty of Jetstar F/Os that study under my own roof that study hard and with enthusiasm without this Gen Y crap that the old guard go on about. These "the world owes me types" are known to any training establishment worth their salt and will be checked accordingly. If they step up and pass too bad for you. You should be excited for the future of aviation in this country. The future Jetstar commands are sitting there waiting their turn eager (experienced - no moon landings given) and already giving blood sweat and tears for the company.
The realities of my company are a tad different.
12 years to domestic command prior to massive growth of lower paid carrier. Now 767 has gone maybe 20 years to international command on a A330. Dont you lecture my generation about paying ones dues. Transiton Layer and myself did remote piston GA then Regional Airline careers prior to QF and we aren't beating our chest for commands now, even though we have been sitting there waiting our turns for 3 and 5 years respectfully for an F/O slot. This Gen Y crap you dribble on about is indicative of individuals that transend generations. Get off you Zimmer frame and drop the generalisations.
Seniority stops the sychophants that want to go in on days off for free doing company jepp ammendments etc, sucking appendages or nepatism etc to get ahead from usurping seniority for promotion.
AFAP sold out the majority of the Jetstar pilots, whether or not it sold out the majority of its membership at Jetstar (must be at least 10 people) is another thing altogether.
The realities of my company are a tad different.
12 years to domestic command prior to massive growth of lower paid carrier. Now 767 has gone maybe 20 years to international command on a A330. Dont you lecture my generation about paying ones dues. Transiton Layer and myself did remote piston GA then Regional Airline careers prior to QF and we aren't beating our chest for commands now, even though we have been sitting there waiting our turns for 3 and 5 years respectfully for an F/O slot. This Gen Y crap you dribble on about is indicative of individuals that transend generations. Get off you Zimmer frame and drop the generalisations.
Seniority stops the sychophants that want to go in on days off for free doing company jepp ammendments etc, sucking appendages or nepatism etc to get ahead from usurping seniority for promotion.
AFAP sold out the majority of the Jetstar pilots, whether or not it sold out the majority of its membership at Jetstar (must be at least 10 people) is another thing altogether.
