Abysmal Journalism concerning Aviation
WOD
Please let me know what airline you fly for and preferably your flight schedule, because any pilot that considers running low on fuel for any reason is a NON EVENT, is a pilot that I dont want to fly with.
You too Charlie
Please let me know what airline you fly for and preferably your flight schedule, because any pilot that considers running low on fuel for any reason is a NON EVENT, is a pilot that I dont want to fly with.
You too Charlie
Last edited by Arnold E; 16th Jan 2010 at 10:07.
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WOD
Please let me know what airline you fly for and preferably your flight schedule, because any pilot that considers running low on fuel for any reason is a NON EVENT, is a pilot that I dont want to fly with.
You too Charlie
Please let me know what airline you fly for and preferably your flight schedule, because any pilot that considers running low on fuel for any reason is a NON EVENT, is a pilot that I dont want to fly with.
You too Charlie
Anyone who has ever operated USA - AUS direct knows the fuel/payload limitations, and the fact that forecast winds can change dramatically over such a long flight. They also know that if the winds are stronger than predicted, the various places to stop for fuel enroute.
If an aircraft lands in Brisbane with low fuel, then it is something to think about. But if an aircraft lands in Brisbane to AVOID a low fuel state, we'll I'd be thinking the pilots are doing their job.
Arnold E, you appear to not get the point. My apologies if you are an experienced commercial pilot and I'm telling you to suck eggs, but every airline has strict rules about the amount of fuel required for every phase of flight. When UA departed the US, they would have had the required amount of fuel on board. Throughout the flight, they may have experienced increased headwinds or Sydney's weather may have changed which could have added a requirement for an additional 60 minutes of holding fuel. If they did not have sufficient fuel to meet the increased requirements to continue to SYD then they were required to proceed to a suitable alternate (observing the required fuel reserves at all times) to take on additional fuel. Noumea and Nadi would also have been available if an earlier diversion was required.
There is absolutely nothing newsworthy about this diversion as this was professional aircrew doing their job the way they should do.
There is absolutely nothing newsworthy about this diversion as this was professional aircrew doing their job the way they should do.
Ok I admit I dont fly shiny jets ( actually to be honest, dont really want to ), having said that I know I am also paranoid about fuel, but I can say one thing, whilst all sorts of misfortune may befall me, running out of fuel wont be one of them.
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Arnold try to read what the professionals are saying here. The aircraft in question didn't run low on fuel, it just didn't have the required fuel to continue to destination.
In all likelyhood the crew departed LAX knowing they were going to be tight on fuel, and would have known that a tech stop (fuel stop) would be a reasonable possibility, and this would have been planned for. This is not unusual in longhaul airline operations, what would you have them do..not depart LAX?
Don't jump on here and criticise posts, when it's obvious that you don't know what you're on about.
In all likelyhood the crew departed LAX knowing they were going to be tight on fuel, and would have known that a tech stop (fuel stop) would be a reasonable possibility, and this would have been planned for. This is not unusual in longhaul airline operations, what would you have them do..not depart LAX?
Don't jump on here and criticise posts, when it's obvious that you don't know what you're on about.
Nunc est bibendum
...I know I am also paranoid about fuel,
)I'll give you another example of a diversion. Taxiing out of MEL recently for SYD we get advised that SYD now has 30 minutes traffic holding. That's OK because we reckon we've got about 45 minutes on top of min op because we'd already loaded a bit of extra. En route we get climbed to a higher than preferred level (lower levels all very bumpy) which cost us some gas. We also get told holding now is 37 minutes. We get held at FL380 instead of our preferred level and that costs us more gas. After all that we could have continued to Sydney and made a legal approach on just above min fuel. However given all the variables in play (possible weather diversions en route from where ATC were holding us for the un forecast TS into Sydney, the good chance of an extended circuit due to traffic and the fact that it would have been nice to have a 'go around' and another approach at the end of all that) we lobbed into Canberra for extra fuel.
My point? Sometimes things change and Plan A is not going to work any longer- despite the best intentions at the beginning of the flight and a conservative fuel order in the first instance. It's not bad airmanship, it's not trying to 'cut it fine', it's not even about 'saving money'. It's about aviation being a dynamic and changing environment (particularly over the 14+ hours of a LAX-SYD sector) and dealing with issues as they arise.
...whilst all sorts of misfortune may befall me, running out of fuel wont be one of them.
So I hope we can all leave this UA diversion into Brissie as just one of those things that happen in aviation from time to time and not get all wound up about it.
it just didn't have the required fuel to continue to destination.
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This thread is a typical example of why these forums have little or no interest any more to the "P" pilots of the original PPRune .
The uninformed and waste of bandwidth posts made by people with no idea of what they are talking about have slowly but surely outnumbered the educational and informed opinions of days gone by.
There was always light hearted jibes and "one liners" but the ignorant amateur posts were rare.
It is pretty obvious to the "P"s that what you were legal with ex LAX may or may not be legal when you arrive in the circuit in SYD. Answer? Divert enroute.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.
The uninformed and waste of bandwidth posts made by people with no idea of what they are talking about have slowly but surely outnumbered the educational and informed opinions of days gone by.
There was always light hearted jibes and "one liners" but the ignorant amateur posts were rare.
It is pretty obvious to the "P"s that what you were legal with ex LAX may or may not be legal when you arrive in the circuit in SYD. Answer? Divert enroute.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.
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Woftam, was thinking the same.
A good idea initially to highlight the inflammatory nature of aviation journalism in Aus by the professionals who commit it (aviation) has inevitably resulted in a debate with the peanut gallery. Whodathunk....
A good idea initially to highlight the inflammatory nature of aviation journalism in Aus by the professionals who commit it (aviation) has inevitably resulted in a debate with the peanut gallery. Whodathunk....
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Hoboe
Somewhat confused here. As an ATC, YOU diverted HIM ??? I would have thought that HE told YOU that HE was diverting. Please explain !!
Somewhat confused here. As an ATC, YOU diverted HIM ??? I would have thought that HE told YOU that HE was diverting. Please explain !!
If you can't figure it out, go and have a Bex and Coke and a long liedown...
While not a professional pilot, merely an amateur, permit me to make a small comment.
The tenor of the general comments in this thread only reinforce general perceptions of professional pilots as aloof, condescending, disconnected, idiots with no understanding of human behaviour, let alone empathy with the travelling public.
It's no big deal to YOU to divert to Brisbane, but to the first time traveller it IS.
That's because they do not have the same perspective of what is going on that you do, how could they?
Don't you understand? Perceptions are reality.
It probably was a slow news day.
To a first time flyer, with no knowledge of aviation, diverting is a big deal.
Assuming they were merely told the cause was "fuel", they are entitled to assume that there is not enough fuel to get to Sydney, just as if they were driving the family car.
What we do not know is what the passengers were told about the situation when they were told of the diversion. The timing, content and delivery of that announcement should have stopped this story in its tracks.
To put it another way; it's not what YOU think, it's what THEY perceive, and railing at other, less informed, peoples perceptions of what is happening is pointless and generally marks the complainer as a fool.
Comfy Chair summed up what apparently happened rather well I thought.
The tenor of the general comments in this thread only reinforce general perceptions of professional pilots as aloof, condescending, disconnected, idiots with no understanding of human behaviour, let alone empathy with the travelling public.
It's no big deal to YOU to divert to Brisbane, but to the first time traveller it IS.
That's because they do not have the same perspective of what is going on that you do, how could they?
Don't you understand? Perceptions are reality.
It probably was a slow news day.
To a first time flyer, with no knowledge of aviation, diverting is a big deal.
Assuming they were merely told the cause was "fuel", they are entitled to assume that there is not enough fuel to get to Sydney, just as if they were driving the family car.
What we do not know is what the passengers were told about the situation when they were told of the diversion. The timing, content and delivery of that announcement should have stopped this story in its tracks.
To put it another way; it's not what YOU think, it's what THEY perceive, and railing at other, less informed, peoples perceptions of what is happening is pointless and generally marks the complainer as a fool.
Comfy Chair summed up what apparently happened rather well I thought.
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...and as the aircraft taxy's in at BNE a rather agititated pax (lets call him Sunfish) fumbles for his mobile and tries to dial it. His hands are shaking in a rage making it difficult, but he eventually gets on to his journo mate:
S: I nearly died..sob
J: Whoa there..who is this?
S: It's me...these bastards did this on purpose..don't they know who I am?
J: Oh its you Sunny
S: I'll sue them, thats what I'll do!
J: You're gonna sue United?
S: No you idiot! Qantas!
J: But I heard it was United..
S: Yeah but this is Qantas fault..it's got to be! Damned Sydney-centric arseholes...sob
...and so on and so forth..
S: I nearly died..sob
J: Whoa there..who is this?
S: It's me...these bastards did this on purpose..don't they know who I am?
J: Oh its you Sunny
S: I'll sue them, thats what I'll do!
J: You're gonna sue United?
S: No you idiot! Qantas!
J: But I heard it was United..
S: Yeah but this is Qantas fault..it's got to be! Damned Sydney-centric arseholes...sob
...and so on and so forth..
By dear old Binos in 2004 -
At one end of the spectrum there are to be found those men and women in whose friendship you may rejoice and in whose wise heads much true lore of the air resides. And that rare commodity, common sense. And at the other, people more akin by nature to the plague carrying rat than any civilised example of homo sapiens. ( And were this a part of the sermon for today, then a reference to Hebrews 13.8 would not be out of place, eh MTR?)
I have maintained for a long time that an outsider who didn't know any Australian pilots, and who formed his/her opinions based purely on what they read in the D&G forum would come to the conclusion that the vast majority of pilots are insular, argumentative, back-stabbing, intolerant, egotistical, narrow minded know-alls.
What a shame that is. I have met so many great people in aviation over the years, and had many memorable, err, social interactions with them. We are fortunate to work in a field which has so much potential for camaraderie, yet we seem determined to play a horrible game of one-upmanship online.
What a shame that is. I have met so many great people in aviation over the years, and had many memorable, err, social interactions with them. We are fortunate to work in a field which has so much potential for camaraderie, yet we seem determined to play a horrible game of one-upmanship online.
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Imagine the size of the headlines if the United captain had a six pack, finely toned pecs and had been Cleo's runner up playmate (playbloke?) of the month!!
(For anyone of the politically correct persuasion who is outraged by this comment, my ire is directed towards the media and their method of handling this and another recent story and not anyone lucky enough to have a six pack and finely toned pecs.)
(For anyone of the politically correct persuasion who is outraged by this comment, my ire is directed towards the media and their method of handling this and another recent story and not anyone lucky enough to have a six pack and finely toned pecs.)
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All this journo business does raise some interesting points.
To educate the punters on what happens in the real world of aviation I am thinking of giving a "factual" PA next time the weather down the track is cactus.
Something like this....
............................................................ ..................
Welcome aboard Flight 123 from Los Angeles to Sydney.
Unfortunately, as luck would have it we can't quite get enough petrol in the tanks to get to Sydney so we plan on falling in the ocean about a hundred miles out, crack the liferafts and paddle the rest of the way…hehe only joking folks!
Actually, we are a bit short of petrol so we are going to Brisbane instead. Now, I know what you are thinking….you bought a ticket to Sydney and thats where you wanna go.
Funnily enough, so do I. My banged up Corolla is sitting in the car park collecting all sorts of fallout and I would like to take it home before it completely falls apart.
But I digress. Once we get the big bomber into the sky we have a magic procedure we carry out that makes fuel as we go. Sometimes we can make enough fuel so that we can get all the way to Sydney. The problem is, sometimes it doesn’t work.
Now there is another problem I think I need to share with you. Despite our best efforts the rain, wind and pestilence sometimes conspire to confound our fuel making abilities. It’s the work of the devil I am sure but it does happen.
If this bad turn of events takes place it’s possible, unlikely for sure, but possible that we wont even be able to make Brisbane. But don’t worry, we have a plan for that too. We can go to all sorts of exotic South Pacific Islands, take your pick.
My old Co-pilot Simon once said “Tahiti looks nice so we went there”. Please leave your requests with the flight attendant and ohh, be aware there is a small fee to make requests.
So settle back, relax and enjoy the superb in flight service as your crew flies you to Sydney or perhaps Brisbane, Fiji or wherever the good winds take us.
To educate the punters on what happens in the real world of aviation I am thinking of giving a "factual" PA next time the weather down the track is cactus.
Something like this....
............................................................ ..................
Welcome aboard Flight 123 from Los Angeles to Sydney.
Unfortunately, as luck would have it we can't quite get enough petrol in the tanks to get to Sydney so we plan on falling in the ocean about a hundred miles out, crack the liferafts and paddle the rest of the way…hehe only joking folks!
Actually, we are a bit short of petrol so we are going to Brisbane instead. Now, I know what you are thinking….you bought a ticket to Sydney and thats where you wanna go.
Funnily enough, so do I. My banged up Corolla is sitting in the car park collecting all sorts of fallout and I would like to take it home before it completely falls apart.
But I digress. Once we get the big bomber into the sky we have a magic procedure we carry out that makes fuel as we go. Sometimes we can make enough fuel so that we can get all the way to Sydney. The problem is, sometimes it doesn’t work.
Now there is another problem I think I need to share with you. Despite our best efforts the rain, wind and pestilence sometimes conspire to confound our fuel making abilities. It’s the work of the devil I am sure but it does happen.
If this bad turn of events takes place it’s possible, unlikely for sure, but possible that we wont even be able to make Brisbane. But don’t worry, we have a plan for that too. We can go to all sorts of exotic South Pacific Islands, take your pick.
My old Co-pilot Simon once said “Tahiti looks nice so we went there”. Please leave your requests with the flight attendant and ohh, be aware there is a small fee to make requests.
So settle back, relax and enjoy the superb in flight service as your crew flies you to Sydney or perhaps Brisbane, Fiji or wherever the good winds take us.
