Merged: To hand fly, or use the automatics?
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Well, I gotta say I dont especially agree with the OP. Building up a circuit in the box is for wan*ers.
Either you've got some skill or you havent. Sure, if you go on leave or fly with an autopilot a bit more you might get a bit rusty, but it can be quickly polished off.
As Sully and a couple of other posters have said, whats important is getting the level of automation right for your circumstances. Trouble (for a F/O) is, one mans (Capts) opinion on that will be different to the next.
I did the ENTRA2 for the first time today. Big f. deal. I happened to use the A/P with selected speed to achieve noise abatement and vert/speed approaching 5000'. We climbed away at 320kts and the engine note didnt change once. Seamless.
P.S. Keg, the MCP has been renamed an FCU. I'll tell you more about it one day after the F/A has delivered your crew meal to your tray table.
Put me in the hand fly if you can camp. So long as it doesnt load up the other guy unnecessarily. And yes, I do fly gliders!
Either you've got some skill or you havent. Sure, if you go on leave or fly with an autopilot a bit more you might get a bit rusty, but it can be quickly polished off.
As Sully and a couple of other posters have said, whats important is getting the level of automation right for your circumstances. Trouble (for a F/O) is, one mans (Capts) opinion on that will be different to the next.
I did the ENTRA2 for the first time today. Big f. deal. I happened to use the A/P with selected speed to achieve noise abatement and vert/speed approaching 5000'. We climbed away at 320kts and the engine note didnt change once. Seamless.
P.S. Keg, the MCP has been renamed an FCU. I'll tell you more about it one day after the F/A has delivered your crew meal to your tray table.
Put me in the hand fly if you can camp. So long as it doesnt load up the other guy unnecessarily. And yes, I do fly gliders!
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Times are changin', whether anyone likes it or not. Look at the design trends in new airliners if you don't believe me.
Of the guys who pride themselves on disconnecting and hand-flying, and are vocal on maintaining manual flying skills, I've seen an interesting mix of outcomes! Ranging from really well hand-flown approaches, to a near go-round followed by a very long landing at 5am in LHR in a 747.
Included in that is the theory that an extra 5 minutes of hand-flying on a 12 hour sector once a month is somehow going to keep their manual skills up, which is complete crap (as they discover that they're still just as rusty at it as they were the last time).
There are times to do it, and times to not. But most of all, don't bite off more than you can chew, and don't force someone else into biting off more than they can chew.
Kick, stomp, sob into your beer as much as you like, but as previously mentioned on this thread, if you're deeply concerned about it, you can always buy yourself a lightie, or at least pick the right moment to do your once a month hand flown approach.
Of the guys who pride themselves on disconnecting and hand-flying, and are vocal on maintaining manual flying skills, I've seen an interesting mix of outcomes! Ranging from really well hand-flown approaches, to a near go-round followed by a very long landing at 5am in LHR in a 747.
Included in that is the theory that an extra 5 minutes of hand-flying on a 12 hour sector once a month is somehow going to keep their manual skills up, which is complete crap (as they discover that they're still just as rusty at it as they were the last time).
There are times to do it, and times to not. But most of all, don't bite off more than you can chew, and don't force someone else into biting off more than they can chew.
Kick, stomp, sob into your beer as much as you like, but as previously mentioned on this thread, if you're deeply concerned about it, you can always buy yourself a lightie, or at least pick the right moment to do your once a month hand flown approach.
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"To be flown using only the automated systems" - Never seen such a note yet!.
You need to check out the RNP-AR approaches that are the latest way to squeeze a jet down a narrow valley in IMC.
They can ONLY be flown by the "automatics". The tech crew cannot fly the aircraft accurately enough to have the ANP remain within the RNP and are just very attentive witnesses to the same ride that pax are getting down the back....until the decision to land or not to land....and if you don't land the "automatics" squeeze you through the valley back to MSA or whatever your country calls it.
If you do land then the next departure will be flown by the "automatics" and squeeze you through the valleys.
Pucker factor 10 I reckon....but its authorised.....at least until the first contact with the granite.
They can ONLY be flown by the "automatics". The tech crew cannot fly the aircraft accurately enough to have the ANP remain within the RNP and are just very attentive witnesses to the same ride that pax are getting down the back....until the decision to land or not to land....and if you don't land the "automatics" squeeze you through the valley back to MSA or whatever your country calls it.
If you do land then the next departure will be flown by the "automatics" and squeeze you through the valleys.
Pucker factor 10 I reckon....but its authorised.....at least until the first contact with the granite.
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On the other hand, I'm only too happy to build a circuit in the "box" for a late arrival into Hobart, as my faith in LNAV/VNAV at that time of night is a lot stronger than faith in my own ability to fly a safe and tidy circuit when I'm struggling to keep my eyes open due to fatigue.
Why then is the Autopilot and the Autothrottle INCLUDED in the dispatch deviation guide. We are allowed to dispatch an aircraft (B737 NG), although with some limitations, without these systems which many, now days, find to be such critical systems. Maybe the way things are going, We won't be able to dispatch without these systems.
Hand flying skills are an important part of any crew members repertoire, for a variety of reasons, and a deliberate attempt needs to be made to maintain them.
Edited for clarity
Last edited by burty; 9th Jan 2010 at 20:28.
I'd don't mind FOs hand flying the aircraft...in daylight and VMC.
Interestingly though, the more they 'want' to hand fly, the less impressive it generally is. And hand in hand with that, the ones who want to hand fly, and also aren't all that good at it, also tend to be less than impressive with their manipulation of the automatics. And as a last point, they also want to do it when the conditions aren't all that appropriate.
Interestingly though, the more they 'want' to hand fly, the less impressive it generally is. And hand in hand with that, the ones who want to hand fly, and also aren't all that good at it, also tend to be less than impressive with their manipulation of the automatics. And as a last point, they also want to do it when the conditions aren't all that appropriate.
You need to check out the RNP-AR approaches that are the latest way to squeeze a jet down a narrow valley in IMC.
They can ONLY be flown by the "automatics". The tech crew cannot fly the aircraft accurately enough to have the ANP remain within the RNP and are just very attentive witnesses to the same ride that pax are getting down the back....until the decision to land or not to land....and if you don't land the "automatics" squeeze you through the valley back to MSA or whatever your country calls it.
They can ONLY be flown by the "automatics". The tech crew cannot fly the aircraft accurately enough to have the ANP remain within the RNP and are just very attentive witnesses to the same ride that pax are getting down the back....until the decision to land or not to land....and if you don't land the "automatics" squeeze you through the valley back to MSA or whatever your country calls it.
Pucker factor 10 I reckon....but its authorised.....at least until the first contact with the granite
The thing is that the closest anyone has come to granite at this airport was flying the VOR departure!
The actual wording on our chart is that AP and AT are recommended in mountainous terrain.
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I personally quite enjoy hand flying when the opportunity presents itself, I haven't yet had a Captain refuse to allow me to hand fly. I have though on several occassions flown with people who are perhaps to eager to switch off the automatics in conditions that are not really appropriate, usually these guys come from a GA background and can't get it through their heads that they are now flying an airliner and it is not always appropriate to fly this thing like the C206 they have been flying around the outback. I can assure you 99% of the times I have seen approaches or departures result in the writing of reports for exceedences, they are off the back of a badly flown manual procedure (myself included). Also when hand flying I couldn't agree more, you should be flying by looking out the window and not trying to construct some complicated circuit in the FMGC. The dangerous people in this game are not the ones who decide to rely on automatics they are the ones that have inappropriate use of the automatics and are quite happy to say 'watch this' as they disconnect everything with weather on minima in a busy airport environment.
As a short-arsed, gone bald, hairy ears and nostrilled, beer gut type, I don't attract many compliments. And I can't get no satisfaction out of a coupled ILS and autoland and no kudos from the other pilot, either. But it sure is a nice ending to a day when you do a manually flown sans FD and AT, well executed smoothly flown ILS and landing and the other bloke says "well done, that man".
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It comes down to an equation of risk vs reward:
Is the risk of operating with reduced automation more than offset by the benefit of maintaining a high standard of instrument flying skills?
I like poling these things around as much as anyone but I have come to the conclusion that no, with the new generation of aircraft its not justified.
My experience is that a basic level of manual flying ability is retained and available in the highly unlikely freak occurrence of loss of all autopilots, after all, every take-off and most landings are still flown manually.
With manual flying and visual apps I think you either have do it alot,eg domestic flying or military, or you pretty much avoid it as on long haul you are never going to retain the level of proficiency to make it as safe as using the automation.
Maybe the answer is for airlines to keep a Machi or PC9 available for monthly line pilot CT!
Is the risk of operating with reduced automation more than offset by the benefit of maintaining a high standard of instrument flying skills?
I like poling these things around as much as anyone but I have come to the conclusion that no, with the new generation of aircraft its not justified.
My experience is that a basic level of manual flying ability is retained and available in the highly unlikely freak occurrence of loss of all autopilots, after all, every take-off and most landings are still flown manually.
With manual flying and visual apps I think you either have do it alot,eg domestic flying or military, or you pretty much avoid it as on long haul you are never going to retain the level of proficiency to make it as safe as using the automation.
Maybe the answer is for airlines to keep a Machi or PC9 available for monthly line pilot CT!
My experience is that a basic level of manual flying ability is retained and available in the highly unlikely freak occurrence of loss of all autopilots,
Now, about that "basic level of manual flying ability is retained and available".....!?
You are referring to 'Flash' airlines out of Sharm al Sheik methinks.
Sure it has to be at an appropriate time, but get on those controls and get that scan going again before you (and the pax close behind) become a victim of automation-capture.
Once technique is taught and a pilot proficient. Raw data skills in an aircraft such as Airbus are not that perishable. I don't understand why many airlines have moved away from maintaining this elemental proficiency.
And on keeping with Airbus. An aeroplane plagued by mode confusion and CFIT, we have yet another OEB, in a string of many, addressing potential failure of the flight directors in delivering correct information.
Raw data proficiency provides the ability to see through erroneous automatics which seem to be a key factor in many accidents and incidents.
And on keeping with Airbus. An aeroplane plagued by mode confusion and CFIT, we have yet another OEB, in a string of many, addressing potential failure of the flight directors in delivering correct information.
Raw data proficiency provides the ability to see through erroneous automatics which seem to be a key factor in many accidents and incidents.
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It's assumed that you have the required skills to operate sans autopilot/autothrottle no?, that was part of your training and checking? How would your op's react should you decline to dispatch in a 737 with the autopilot written up?
Another accident comes to mind of Turkish Airlines Flight 1951, where the RAD ALT failed during a autocoupled approach. A major factor in the accident being the flight crew being so disconnected from what the automatics were doing that they allowed the aircraft to crash.
I have experienced a RAD ALT failure on the NG after a successful ILS capture, the autopilot disconnects after 3 seconds of the RA flag. Not a great place to be dumped into a situation where you are called upon to hand fly when you were least expecting it. Especially when most of us are so used to poling the thing around only after we're fully configured.... You soon forget how much power you've gotta apply when you select Flaps 40 when your 'doing it old school'....
My arguement - maybe we're becoming so reliant on the automatics, that we're becoming disconnected from what the aircraft is actually doing or trying to do, and that by maintaining our manual flying skills, we would be in a better place to monitor the automatics and take over when the system fails us....
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Next Step???
Perhaps it won't be too much longer and ATC will digitally be in the cockpit. A text message on the screen: "Descend FL240, turn left HDG 150, reduce speed to 260...Confirm?" Pilot hits the "Accept" button and the rest is accomplished automatically. Boring...
Only half a speed-brake
AIP Netherlands: EHAM AD 2.22 FLIGHT PROCEDURES
RNAV: the Netherlands highly recommends the use of pre-programmed (RNAV) routes on board of aircraft. Within the TMAs these RNAV routes shall be considered as overlays of conventional routes. ...
Furthermore:
* Connect FMS as early as possible.
* Turn anticipation is mandatory for all waypoints except those which are underlined. These waypoints shall be overflown.
* ...
Furthermore:
* Connect FMS as early as possible.
* Turn anticipation is mandatory for all waypoints except those which are underlined. These waypoints shall be overflown.
* ...