QF Strike threat may ground planes.
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here here air support.
the topic of lame duty times are a sore point in everyones behind.
There are no duty limits on the poor lame. I can not understand that.
Are the flight crew the only people that feel fatigued after 10 hours?
Are they the only ones with flight critical roles?
Unfortunately there are alot of engineers that don't want duty times because they need the money, companies don't want duty times as they might actually have to train or employ more engineers.
Engineers usually have to work at wierd hours, sometimes long hours and my favorite be on call so that they can come in at short notice and fix a broken a/c.
Our numbers across the planet are relatively small and ageing. I mean the last ime I looked at the CASA web site the average age was 55.
Even with the modern fleet that airlines have today at least (majors) don't want to get into the GA side right now, we still need more and more qualified and experienced certifiers, do we not?
Duty times for engineers are a valid topic albiet a not so favourable one for many people out there.
the topic of lame duty times are a sore point in everyones behind.
There are no duty limits on the poor lame. I can not understand that.
Are the flight crew the only people that feel fatigued after 10 hours?
Are they the only ones with flight critical roles?
Unfortunately there are alot of engineers that don't want duty times because they need the money, companies don't want duty times as they might actually have to train or employ more engineers.
Engineers usually have to work at wierd hours, sometimes long hours and my favorite be on call so that they can come in at short notice and fix a broken a/c.
Our numbers across the planet are relatively small and ageing. I mean the last ime I looked at the CASA web site the average age was 55.
Even with the modern fleet that airlines have today at least (majors) don't want to get into the GA side right now, we still need more and more qualified and experienced certifiers, do we not?
Duty times for engineers are a valid topic albiet a not so favourable one for many people out there.
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FRMS
Firstly, every airline has an obligation to its employee's called 'duty of care'.
If ,lets say, Engineer's are working shifts such as double's ,or as airsupport pointed out shifts of 24 hours in duration, then the airline leaves itself open to a huge lawsuit if there is an injury or death. That is only one issue of many.
Secondly, ICAO is ramping up an emphasis on the the Fatigue Risk Management side of industry, and this has gained momentum since the Colgan Air accident and changes are on their way. Whether an employee likes the overtime $$ or not, long overdue changes in this are of risk management are coming.
Thirdly, with the introduction of SMS into the aviation industry,I think it will be very interesting to see the changes that will have to be made in relation to rosters, tasking,fatigue etc. Plasticmerc hit the nail on the head, it is not just flight crews who suffer from fatigue.
If Senior Airline Management still delude themselves into believing that only the Drivers up front are ' the only risk within a diverse and complex operation' then they had better pull their heads out of their asses and grasp an understanding of SMS and the differnce between responsibility and accountability. Accoutability rests upon the head of the CEO, and it will be his/her ass that ends up in jail.
If ,lets say, Engineer's are working shifts such as double's ,or as airsupport pointed out shifts of 24 hours in duration, then the airline leaves itself open to a huge lawsuit if there is an injury or death. That is only one issue of many.
Secondly, ICAO is ramping up an emphasis on the the Fatigue Risk Management side of industry, and this has gained momentum since the Colgan Air accident and changes are on their way. Whether an employee likes the overtime $$ or not, long overdue changes in this are of risk management are coming.
Thirdly, with the introduction of SMS into the aviation industry,I think it will be very interesting to see the changes that will have to be made in relation to rosters, tasking,fatigue etc. Plasticmerc hit the nail on the head, it is not just flight crews who suffer from fatigue.
If Senior Airline Management still delude themselves into believing that only the Drivers up front are ' the only risk within a diverse and complex operation' then they had better pull their heads out of their asses and grasp an understanding of SMS and the differnce between responsibility and accountability. Accoutability rests upon the head of the CEO, and it will be his/her ass that ends up in jail.
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as airsupport pointed out shifts of 24 hours in duration
Just that is how it has worked out, many times a scheduled check or rectifications have gone on much longer than "planned", and then although I was sometimes literally falling asleep on my feet, have had to keep going as there was nobody else there that could release the aircraft.
I have been flying with Pilots that have had to go slightly over their ''normal'' limits to complete a flight in progress, but nothing like is expected of LAMEs.
I will never understand why there is NO hard limit for LAMEs, even if was say a ridiculous figure of maybe 20 or even 24 hours straight.
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PS........ Just thought I should mention, I am NOT having a go at Qantas here, I was never with them, just the Industry in general and the lack of duty time limits for LAMEs, and other Technical Staff. 
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Clarification
G'day airsupport. Sorry mate if my response sounded as if I was saying that you were rostered for 24 hours. I certainly didnt mean for that to be read that way. For other readers of this thread please be aware that any figures I gave mentioned are not in reference to airsupport actually working those hours. And as with airsupport, I too am not saying that QF undertakes this practise, but it is a problem that is widespread.
My meaning was that some people in the industry are working double's or shifts up to 24 hours duration. And yes, its not rostered but it is ADHOC occurences which happen from time to time, but the outcome remains the same - fatigue.
Every person's role in Aviation is integral to the safe operation,regardless of position.
Cheers
My meaning was that some people in the industry are working double's or shifts up to 24 hours duration. And yes, its not rostered but it is ADHOC occurences which happen from time to time, but the outcome remains the same - fatigue.
Every person's role in Aviation is integral to the safe operation,regardless of position.
Cheers
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Many companies of today will try to run the worker into the ground with excessive workloads so they can make a profit,but in the aviation industry the end result might be an aircraft been run into the ground.
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G'day airsupport. Sorry mate if my response sounded as if I was saying that you were rostered for 24 hours. I certainly didnt mean for that to be read that way.
I personally have never been rostered for 24 hours or more, just it has often turned out that way, and it has been ''expected'' that I would do it, with nothing official on paper.
I also have NO problems with Flight Crews having strict limits on their duty hours, a VERY GOOD idea, just I have never seen the logic in the new thoroughly refreshed Flight Crew turning up in the morning to operate the aircraft, when sometimes the person responsible for the safety of their aircraft (prior to them accepting it) has NO limits on his duty, and may have been on duty for 24 hours or more and might not be sure what day it is, let alone what on Earth they are talking about.
Crazy.........
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I attended a CASA human factors course in Adelaide about 4 years ago and the subject of fatigue effects on engineers was thoroughly discussed. We were presented with some pretty scary figures on the maintenance error rate escalation in comparison to hours of duty. We were pretty much told we had a duty of care to ensure fatigue was managed.
When we asked CASA why, if it is such a glaring safety issue, they would not take steps to regulate engineer duty times as they do for pilots, SILENCE.
Off the record I was informed that there wasnt a lobby strong enough for it, given that the Majors ( Q et al ) would fight tooth and nail against it.
When we asked CASA why, if it is such a glaring safety issue, they would not take steps to regulate engineer duty times as they do for pilots, SILENCE.
Off the record I was informed that there wasnt a lobby strong enough for it, given that the Majors ( Q et al ) would fight tooth and nail against it.
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When we asked CASA why, if it is such a glaring safety issue, they would not take steps to regulate engineer duty times as they do for pilots, SILENCE.
Individual LAMEs (and I am guessing these other Engineers) cannot do anything about it themselves, and even the Safety Regulator, KNOWING it is a safety issue, will do NOTHING.
As I said before even if it cannot be like the Pilots, with a maximum duty time of 11 or 12 hours (or whatever it is now), surely there should be some limit, even if it was 20 or 24 hours or even longer, SOMETHING.
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The PE's have a legitimate claim , they are so undervalued, compared to the overpaid , over valued , egotistical LAME's. The LAMEs won't F..rt without a clearance from a PE.They suffered from being represented at one stage by David Cox . Nuff said. Good luck guys .
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The PE's have a legitimate claim , they are so undervalued, compared to the overpaid , over valued , egotistical LAME's. The LAMEs won't F..rt without a clearance from a PE.They suffered from being represented at one stage by David Cox . Nuff said. Good luck guys .
I have never worked for Qantas, so I don't know what it is like there and thus would NOT comment about the situation there, but I was an LAME for some 35 years with Australian registered aircraft, throughout Australia and Worldwide.
I am sure these PEs do a job, however I have never ever consulted one regarding problems with an aircraft, maybe it is different at Qantas, especially maybe in heavy maintenance?
In fact one place I worked it was the opposite, one of them I knew personally used to be always phoning me up on the Line asking about how to do something, much to the amusement of everyone else on the Line. Also I will never forget when I was an Apprentice back in the early 1960s, and the LAMEs went on strike, we had to work with these PEs who were replacing the LAMEs, and we Apprentices had to show these highly paid PEs what to do, they couldn't even do things like change bulkheads etc.
I am sure they serve a purpose, and they should have some limits on their duty hours, as definitely LAMEs should too.
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Like so many "good ideas" in aviation, all that happens is that the academics come up with the data from research, other academics review it and say "hmm, there's something in this", they present their findings, and occasionally it even gets turned into a safety seminar. Attendees of the seminar also come away thinking "hmmm, a lot of sense in that", and all walk away and duely disregard it on cost basis.
Then years down the track, lo and behold, an incident happens, gets investigated and the subject of that seminar that everyone's forgotten about turns out to be a contributing factor. Questions get asked, public gets swayed and only then does it get legislated, although often in watered-down form after "industry consultation", read commercial interests...
Or is my understanding of "affordable safety" off the mark?
Then years down the track, lo and behold, an incident happens, gets investigated and the subject of that seminar that everyone's forgotten about turns out to be a contributing factor. Questions get asked, public gets swayed and only then does it get legislated, although often in watered-down form after "industry consultation", read commercial interests...
Or is my understanding of "affordable safety" off the mark?
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The PE's have a legitimate claim , they are so undervalued, compared to the overpaid , over valued , egotistical LAME's. The LAMEs won't F..rt without a clearance from a PE.They suffered from being represented at one stage by David Cox . Nuff said. Good luck guys .
I have gone back and had a read of all your posts here on PPRUNE.What happened to you.
Couldnt pass the basics?
A LAME screwed your wife?
Get sacked for incompetence by a LAME?
Must have been something serious because I have never seen so much hate filled bile directed at LAME's by one person before.
Do us all a favour and just FUKC OFF.
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airsupport
I am sure these PEs do a job, however I have never ever consulted one regarding problems with an aircraft
Just curious, what did you do when your maintenance manual said no?
Or when there was no approved manual for your particular fix?
Honest question, (from a pilot) I thought this was where LAME's needed to get technical authorisation from a CASA delegate? (PE)
Just curious, what did you do when your maintenance manual said no?
Or when there was no approved manual for your particular fix?
Honest question, (from a pilot) I thought this was where LAME's needed to get technical authorisation from a CASA delegate? (PE)
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Just curious, what did you do when your maintenance manual said no?
Or when there was no approved manual for your particular fix?
Honest question, (from a pilot) I thought this was where LAME's needed to get technical authorisation from a CASA delegate? (PE)
Or when there was no approved manual for your particular fix?
Honest question, (from a pilot) I thought this was where LAME's needed to get technical authorisation from a CASA delegate? (PE)
I have never had a problem that we couldn't either fix on site or get around somehow, like with an MEL.
Much of the time it wasn't a practical option anyway even IF we had of needed their help, especially in places like Saigon, Taipei, Moscow or even New York.
Sure it is not a problem at Qantas Sydney, maybe as someone suggested the LAMEs there rely on these PEs too much, I don't know.
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How much does these Engineers get paid? I don't blame them, given how much Dixon recieved for just a few months worth of work last year. I am sure most employee of this company would ask why are we getting paid peanuts, while our CEO et al are taking home the fat bacon!
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airsupport
I have never had a problem that we couldn't either fix on site or get around somehow, like with an MEL.
Ok so maybe when you're dealing with over one hundred airframes it is possible to imagine a few situations where the MEL gives no joy.
How did you get the aircraft back from the outports?
Ok so maybe when you're dealing with over one hundred airframes it is possible to imagine a few situations where the MEL gives no joy.
How did you get the aircraft back from the outports?
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Ok so maybe when you're dealing with over one hundred airframes it is possible to imagine a few situations where the MEL gives no joy.
How did you get the aircraft back from the outports?
How did you get the aircraft back from the outports?
Most of the situations I have been involved with and was referring to (both about fixing them and also ridiculous hours on duty) were Overseas where we only had the one airframe, IF we couldn't fix it or get around a problem, it didn't operate until it was fixed. We had no what you call PEs on site or even in the Countries involved.
On a few occassions we had outside help, from other Airlines, or people from Airbus one time with a major problem in Canada, but most of the time you just have to get by.
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Also I will never forget when I was an Apprentice back in the early 1960s, and the LAMEs went on strike, we had to work with these PEs who were replacing the LAMEs, and we Apprentices had to show these highly paid PEs what to do, they couldn't even do things like change bulkheads etc.
PE's and LAMEs do two different jobs that complement each other.