VB hires Ejet Direct Entry Captains
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this aint anything new
jetstar having been hiring dec's (ex blue shirt mates) for years under the guise of lack of experience within the ranks. and when they get experience (the fo's that is) they up the command req's to bring in more blue shirt mates!!
and don't think for a minute that the afap will do anything, they are a disgrace to the industry.
unfortunately, airline managers will continue to bend us all over until we all stand up and make ourselves heard, LIKE THE QF ENGINEERS.....until then make sure you bring your own lube!!!!!!!
jetstar having been hiring dec's (ex blue shirt mates) for years under the guise of lack of experience within the ranks. and when they get experience (the fo's that is) they up the command req's to bring in more blue shirt mates!!
and don't think for a minute that the afap will do anything, they are a disgrace to the industry.
unfortunately, airline managers will continue to bend us all over until we all stand up and make ourselves heard, LIKE THE QF ENGINEERS.....until then make sure you bring your own lube!!!!!!!
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Thats not what I'm saying - simply - nothing has happened - yet everyone is getting their damn g-strings in a knot for no 'known' reason. Which leads to inuendo - boring and depressing conversations up the front with union types - which in the end makes for a poor work environment and motivation to come to work, quite low, again - been there done that. We are our own worst enemies in most respects, but none moreso than watering the grapevine and stirring the pot, which by the time it gets round - "Pink elephant monkey wheelbarrow - Direct entry captains, I'm missing out"
As for all sticking together - yaddah yaddah yaddah - historically - when has a union worked for the good and wanted outcome of the worker ? Except for times around the Eureka Stockade?? Seniority and Unions hide mediocrity....... If theres a problem - fix it, stop whinging.
As for all sticking together - yaddah yaddah yaddah - historically - when has a union worked for the good and wanted outcome of the worker ? Except for times around the Eureka Stockade?? Seniority and Unions hide mediocrity....... If theres a problem - fix it, stop whinging.
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build a bridge fellas........the Company will do what they want, there will be no sentiment in this decision. You all laid down when forced to take leave and no one will "strike" over this and the Company know it! It's just economics when all said and done and VB aren't the only airline run by bean counters!!!
I don't understand the big deal? Guys have got Commands with VB on the 737 with only 4years experience on type (and a heap of GA turbine time!) and the E Jet is a toy compared to the 737 & A320. New hires with more than 1500 hours metro time should have no problems qualifying for Command on the E Jet.
I don't understand the big deal? Guys have got Commands with VB on the 737 with only 4years experience on type (and a heap of GA turbine time!) and the E Jet is a toy compared to the 737 & A320. New hires with more than 1500 hours metro time should have no problems qualifying for Command on the E Jet.
This type of behavior by vb management has been going on for ever, and it will continue for ever.
Why cry over the decision to hire DEC to crew the Embraer? This decision shouldn't come as any surprise. There has been countless other examples of how these crooks have screwed tech and cabin crew over the years! And yet, you people do nothing to help yourselves! Why not? Additionally, the AFAP should hang their foolish heads in shame.
You are the architects of your own destruction! Stand up to them and start slapping back.
Good luck fellas.
Why cry over the decision to hire DEC to crew the Embraer? This decision shouldn't come as any surprise. There has been countless other examples of how these crooks have screwed tech and cabin crew over the years! And yet, you people do nothing to help yourselves! Why not? Additionally, the AFAP should hang their foolish heads in shame.
You are the architects of your own destruction! Stand up to them and start slapping back.
Good luck fellas.
Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet. Contrary to what some would believe, all modern jets are pisseasy to fly.
Any existing jet captain with 500 hours PIC on that pisseasy jet should be capable of doing line training on same.
So what excuse is being put forward to hire 'old mates' ? It can't be an argument based on economics, as all new pilots no matter how experienced cost money to complete various courses, sim checks and line training etc required by CASA, DOTARS and all the other regulatory stuff. At least 6 weeks non-productive (as in non-revenue) time.
Unless the base material is really really lacking in experience, or is particularly unskilled, or downright thick, command upgrades are no more costly than inductions. Ditto check/training pilot approvals - those with in-house experience shouldn't need any more time or expenditure than a newcomer to jump through the various CASA hoops.
Unless there are other 'old mates' in CASA who can be relied upon to grease the wheels? That crap did happen in the past.
Any existing jet captain with 500 hours PIC on that pisseasy jet should be capable of doing line training on same.
So what excuse is being put forward to hire 'old mates' ? It can't be an argument based on economics, as all new pilots no matter how experienced cost money to complete various courses, sim checks and line training etc required by CASA, DOTARS and all the other regulatory stuff. At least 6 weeks non-productive (as in non-revenue) time.
Unless the base material is really really lacking in experience, or is particularly unskilled, or downright thick, command upgrades are no more costly than inductions. Ditto check/training pilot approvals - those with in-house experience shouldn't need any more time or expenditure than a newcomer to jump through the various CASA hoops.
Unless there are other 'old mates' in CASA who can be relied upon to grease the wheels? That crap did happen in the past.
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Contrary to what some would believe, all modern jets are pisseasy to fly.
As for the DEC, seems still a rumour at this stage. Regardless, VB has always been keen on nepatism and friends network for recruitment. What do you think Blue Star is and how many of you have benefited from it? Be careful throwing stones.
We have to face into it - that's how big business works
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Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet.
...when you've possibly got more than 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet time yourself.
Pilots who make it look easy will tell you it's a bit like watching a swan gliiiide across the water. All smooth and no fuss on the surface. And under the water? T- two little webbed feet paddling like hell.
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Mach,
I dont agree with what you have said either. My opinion is that for an abinitio jet FO it requires several years of exposure to jet operations before a satisfactory competance and knowledge base is reached. This means that at least ALL of the companys' cyclic simulator training program should be redone and to a high standard. The candidate should also have had several seasons of exposure to the companys' area of operation. This would take several years (at least 3, maybe 5 years) and 2000+ hours of flying.
I have seen jet captains with the experience base that you described and they have been frighteningly ignorant of some of the pitfalls regarding jet ops. They were also lacking in the common 'horse sense' that a well grounded jet pilot should possess. Similarly is the case with 'highly experieced' turbo prop pilots who transistion to jets - it's a very different ball game!
Anyone who thinks that 500 jet time as FO is the minimum for effective captaincy is kidding themselves. In a similar vein, captains with 500 hrs on type will not know enough about the aeroplane to be effective trainers.
Furthermore, the Ejet is a real jet aeroplane - not a toy!
I dont agree with what you have said either. My opinion is that for an abinitio jet FO it requires several years of exposure to jet operations before a satisfactory competance and knowledge base is reached. This means that at least ALL of the companys' cyclic simulator training program should be redone and to a high standard. The candidate should also have had several seasons of exposure to the companys' area of operation. This would take several years (at least 3, maybe 5 years) and 2000+ hours of flying.
I have seen jet captains with the experience base that you described and they have been frighteningly ignorant of some of the pitfalls regarding jet ops. They were also lacking in the common 'horse sense' that a well grounded jet pilot should possess. Similarly is the case with 'highly experieced' turbo prop pilots who transistion to jets - it's a very different ball game!
Anyone who thinks that 500 jet time as FO is the minimum for effective captaincy is kidding themselves. In a similar vein, captains with 500 hrs on type will not know enough about the aeroplane to be effective trainers.
Furthermore, the Ejet is a real jet aeroplane - not a toy!
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What a lot of you are forgetting is not all Virgin Blue FOs have come of Metro's etc. Many have come from the RAAF (F111, Hercs, Orions, BBJs), others from Business jets (BBJs, Challengers, etc), some from other airlines (737, 747, 767, F100, Bae 146 etc) and those who have come from very senior Check and Training positions at Eastern, Sunstate and REX. These are the pilots who were recruited as FO's due to their experience to allow for a quicker upgrade.
The company needs to look at all options before offering the DEC's to cover the short fall in captains for about 2-3 months (the time it takes to upgrade a type rated FO). They could stop assigning leave to Ejet captains, some captains are still getting leave assigned each roster. They could look at increasing the hours the captains fly for the few months. Once again there are captains only doing 40-50 hours per month. If they still can't cover the flying then look at DECs on a short term contract, but not in Brisbane. Send them to PER, SYD or MEL (the only bases that have been avaliable for the last 12 months). These DEC's can commute just like the current DJ captains have to do.
The company needs to look at all options before offering the DEC's to cover the short fall in captains for about 2-3 months (the time it takes to upgrade a type rated FO). They could stop assigning leave to Ejet captains, some captains are still getting leave assigned each roster. They could look at increasing the hours the captains fly for the few months. Once again there are captains only doing 40-50 hours per month. If they still can't cover the flying then look at DECs on a short term contract, but not in Brisbane. Send them to PER, SYD or MEL (the only bases that have been avaliable for the last 12 months). These DEC's can commute just like the current DJ captains have to do.
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Waren, not to make this a pissing contest but I fly into China nearly every day I go to work, I emphasise China because they have very bad ATC, talk to each other in Mandarin ( the rest of Asia use english ), very restrictive airspace ( difficult to get diversions around wx ) and extremes of wx, ie snow in winter, TS and Typhoons in summer. having spent some decades trudging around Oz, I can tell you it's a lot more difficult flying in the good old PRC.
You are right though, this does not mean some pilot from up here will be any better than someone already in VB, was just curious as to someones comment about flying into a mountain
Cheers
You are right though, this does not mean some pilot from up here will be any better than someone already in VB, was just curious as to someones comment about flying into a mountain
Cheers
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Then why is the industry facing the worst decade for safety since the second world war?
Any regular guy with solid turbo-prop experience would successfully make the transit onto a jet. Of course, good training would be required. Seem to recall the AN F50 Capts went directly to the A320, with no jet time! Not to mention the EWA guys. From the F27 to F28. Again with no jet time!
Rescue 1, don't believe the crap your hero Capt's are telling you. Street wise smarts go a real long way in this industry.
I was not suggesting that the 1000 Metro and 500 jet should be a pilot's ONLY experience before being considered for command. Most operators also have a total flying time minimum of 3500 to 5000 hours, and should give credit towards the lower amount for pilots who have acquired experience within the organisation.
But I stand by what I say - having done B737 command upgrade training on several pilots with precisely the minimums I suggest - if the pilot is competent in the 1st place. If not, no argument, no upgrade. I have also come across pilots with 10,000 hours on type who were never going to make command.
But I stand by what I say - having done B737 command upgrade training on several pilots with precisely the minimums I suggest - if the pilot is competent in the 1st place. If not, no argument, no upgrade. I have also come across pilots with 10,000 hours on type who were never going to make command.
Well Mach, you have me a bit puzzled!
Is it:
Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet.
or
Most operators also have a total flying time minimum of 3500 to 5000 hours
or
I have also come across pilots with 10,000 hours on type who were never going to make command.
I get the feeling then, there is no standard mould for command!
Is it:
Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet.
or
Most operators also have a total flying time minimum of 3500 to 5000 hours
or
I have also come across pilots with 10,000 hours on type who were never going to make command.
I get the feeling then, there is no standard mould for command!
Fathom, either you need lessons in basic comprehension or maybe I was obscure, for which I apologise.
The operative word in all that I originally said is 'should'. I gave typical suitable experience for a jet command for a 'competent' pilot. In my second post I qualified my version of suitable experience - although it should not have been necessary - as very few pilots get 1000 Metro and 500 jet without some other initial experience. While qualifying my first post I added that certain individuals are genetically unsuited to command no matter what hours they lay claim to. These are my opinions, not based on science but based on checking and training of a wide range of pilot skill levels and backgrounds over about the last 40 years.
What originally sparked this debate is that it seems only 'old mates' with a few hours on type gained with another (now deservedly defunct) operator are being given DEC presumably because out of all the existing DJ first officers, none are deemed suitable for upgrade and presumably out of all the DJ Embraer captains insufficient are suitable to take on check and training roles.
I have no axe to grind in this - in fact I could not give a flying fcuk what happens at DJ - but this one triggered my anti-bullsh!t meter.
No further debate from this white man.
The operative word in all that I originally said is 'should'. I gave typical suitable experience for a jet command for a 'competent' pilot. In my second post I qualified my version of suitable experience - although it should not have been necessary - as very few pilots get 1000 Metro and 500 jet without some other initial experience. While qualifying my first post I added that certain individuals are genetically unsuited to command no matter what hours they lay claim to. These are my opinions, not based on science but based on checking and training of a wide range of pilot skill levels and backgrounds over about the last 40 years.
What originally sparked this debate is that it seems only 'old mates' with a few hours on type gained with another (now deservedly defunct) operator are being given DEC presumably because out of all the existing DJ first officers, none are deemed suitable for upgrade and presumably out of all the DJ Embraer captains insufficient are suitable to take on check and training roles.
I have no axe to grind in this - in fact I could not give a flying fcuk what happens at DJ - but this one triggered my anti-bullsh!t meter.
No further debate from this white man.
Seems the old smelly days of Australian aviation is still alive and well...
You can't fly the 210, cause you only have 206 time
You can't fly the twin, cause you only have 210 time
You can't fly the jet, cause you only have turbo-prop time
bla bla!!
I got ya drift Mach from ya 1st post, and I'm pretty sure heaps of other fellas did too.
DJ are crooks! They have sh!t loads of qualified FO's to drive their swept wings from the left seat. AFAP where is your big stick? And members, where are your balls?
You can't fly the 210, cause you only have 206 time
You can't fly the twin, cause you only have 210 time
You can't fly the jet, cause you only have turbo-prop time
bla bla!!
I got ya drift Mach from ya 1st post, and I'm pretty sure heaps of other fellas did too.
DJ are crooks! They have sh!t loads of qualified FO's to drive their swept wings from the left seat. AFAP where is your big stick? And members, where are your balls?
Last edited by TriJetFlying; 7th Nov 2009 at 13:01.
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DEC or not. We are still our own worst enemy when a certain group of guys agree to forgoe their check and training allowances to keep their positions on the EJET.
They were on the 737 as F/O's then go to the EJET, fast tracto command and training etc then in an act of selfishness, they agree to keep those positions on less pay.
Disgraceful.....DB, SS, RC, etc
They were on the 737 as F/O's then go to the EJET, fast tracto command and training etc then in an act of selfishness, they agree to keep those positions on less pay.
Disgraceful.....DB, SS, RC, etc
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And all you guys that went into virgin are surprised and pissed off with this why????
Its the way virgin have run since the beginning, and the way they will run into the future. stop complaining and just get on with your jobs!
if it upsets you that much you can make a real stand, and vote with your feet but we all know that isn't going to happen
Its the way virgin have run since the beginning, and the way they will run into the future. stop complaining and just get on with your jobs!
if it upsets you that much you can make a real stand, and vote with your feet but we all know that isn't going to happen