VB hires Ejet Direct Entry Captains
Fail to see that there is not enough experience amongst the current EJET/Boeing FO community to fill these positions??
intelligentpilot - regardless of your petty justifications - one year flying over there = 4 years flying over here...
In other words, you are yet to fly into the side of a mountain?
If true - it's just another attempt by a desperate bunch of short sighted accountants, trying to ensure their bonuses.
As for the recruiting 'experience' s#!t - what a load of bollocks - there's not a VB 737/EMB FO that I wouldn't trust to make a 'command' decision with the lives of those I care about most - and have done for many years now.
Insult the FO, insult the man (or woman) who signed them off - disagree? Grow some 'macadamia cookies' and stop being so desperate!!!
intelligentpilot - regardless of your petty justifications - one year flying over there = 4 years flying over here...
In other words, you are yet to fly into the side of a mountain?
If true - it's just another attempt by a desperate bunch of short sighted accountants, trying to ensure their bonuses.
As for the recruiting 'experience' s#!t - what a load of bollocks - there's not a VB 737/EMB FO that I wouldn't trust to make a 'command' decision with the lives of those I care about most - and have done for many years now.
Insult the FO, insult the man (or woman) who signed them off - disagree? Grow some 'macadamia cookies' and stop being so desperate!!!
Good post Oz Angel. P.Air, how do you think you would feel if you were bypassed not for experience but for favoritism......... During the last EBA VB pushed out the line of the Egalitarian attitude and negotiations based on "Trust"........... Unfortunately this leopard doesn't change his spots no matter how many times the deck chairs change.
As for the head of HR....whats his name ....Spanner?, well they've really thrown a Spanner in the works this time.
What a great way to look after the troops who in the GFC as per mangmnt requests used all/most outstanding leave, leave without pay,RORO.
Congo line of mngmnt, yes well from the outside looking in it does appear that way. It will be interesting to see from an outsiders perspective how this is resolved. Hopefully the representational bodies of the pilots can resolve this in the positive for the long term pilots waiting for their Command.
Good Luck
As for the head of HR....whats his name ....Spanner?, well they've really thrown a Spanner in the works this time.
What a great way to look after the troops who in the GFC as per mangmnt requests used all/most outstanding leave, leave without pay,RORO.
Congo line of mngmnt, yes well from the outside looking in it does appear that way. It will be interesting to see from an outsiders perspective how this is resolved. Hopefully the representational bodies of the pilots can resolve this in the positive for the long term pilots waiting for their Command.
Good Luck
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NOW is the time for the VB pilot body to stand up and be counted!
If not, then you ONLY have yourselves to blame. I for one would walk tomorrow IF this course of action was allowed to happen.
A VERY low act by management if true.
why is it that PILOTS have to cover the mistakes of management time and time again, yet management get the bonusses, and pilots get lowered terms and conditions?
If not, then you ONLY have yourselves to blame. I for one would walk tomorrow IF this course of action was allowed to happen.
A VERY low act by management if true.
why is it that PILOTS have to cover the mistakes of management time and time again, yet management get the bonusses, and pilots get lowered terms and conditions?
Whogivesa????
Re: clause 4.1.2 my point exactly.
Don't get mad or emotional guys, just follow the letter of the EBA. I've seen airline managements over the years trying his sort of thing from tme to time. A peckerhead in HR or some other pencil D!ck thinks it would be a good idea to bypass due process just because they think they can. Or there is some other agenda. Jobs for mates maybe? They do this because too many people are unaware of ther rights.
If There is a breech of the EBA get your reps and the AFAP to lodge a dispute with the IRC. Hopefully lawrie and the team have looked at that already. If the threat of that action doesn't make this thing go away, then the Commision will. That is of course if the company are dumb enough to push it.
Don't get mad, get even. As for you propoents of DEC's or promotion above other suitably qualified candidates, based on the assumption that you somehow walk on water. You're nothing but opportunistic queue jumpers. Go crawl back under the rock from which you came. Must be a pretty lonely existance up there with your arse impaled on the top of the pyramid!
Re: clause 4.1.2 my point exactly.
Don't get mad or emotional guys, just follow the letter of the EBA. I've seen airline managements over the years trying his sort of thing from tme to time. A peckerhead in HR or some other pencil D!ck thinks it would be a good idea to bypass due process just because they think they can. Or there is some other agenda. Jobs for mates maybe? They do this because too many people are unaware of ther rights.
If There is a breech of the EBA get your reps and the AFAP to lodge a dispute with the IRC. Hopefully lawrie and the team have looked at that already. If the threat of that action doesn't make this thing go away, then the Commision will. That is of course if the company are dumb enough to push it.
Don't get mad, get even. As for you propoents of DEC's or promotion above other suitably qualified candidates, based on the assumption that you somehow walk on water. You're nothing but opportunistic queue jumpers. Go crawl back under the rock from which you came. Must be a pretty lonely existance up there with your arse impaled on the top of the pyramid!
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I still laugh when guys say I have been on the jet 1 to 2 yrs !!!, so am ready for a cmd. I think alot of people have forgot what it used to be like to get a jet cmd. 9 to 10 yrs was not uncommon, and I must admit, after flying with, and training alot of these new guys, especially ones straight off light twins/turbo props, I think a min of 3 to 4 yrs as an f/o would be a safer option. Than again, I suppose flying around Aust is very straight forward, and we are just very lucky we dont get any real weather issues here.
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Blacksmoke, I couldnt agree more!!! Greenslopes, give it time son, oneday you will get there.....
Back to the thread, I dont disagree with an airline bringing in DEC's, as long as there is no presently employed f/o's that forfill the company cmd requirements. If guys do meet these requirements, they should be given the opportunity to upgrade.
Good luck.
Back to the thread, I dont disagree with an airline bringing in DEC's, as long as there is no presently employed f/o's that forfill the company cmd requirements. If guys do meet these requirements, they should be given the opportunity to upgrade.
Good luck.
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3/4 year F/Os are in abundance at VB too.
AFAP have been close to useless with the debarckle earlier this year forcing F/Os out of EBA and senioroity to move from melbourne and take pay cuts to go on the EMB etc.
greenslopes - you forgot, had to walk up hill to school both ways.
God bless the old guard - Qantas used to advertise for pilots in the paper back then too!
AFAP have been close to useless with the debarckle earlier this year forcing F/Os out of EBA and senioroity to move from melbourne and take pay cuts to go on the EMB etc.
greenslopes - you forgot, had to walk up hill to school both ways.
God bless the old guard - Qantas used to advertise for pilots in the paper back then too!
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whogivesa??? I think you forgot to add, "and we happy sky air world failed and you all guys and gals lost your jobs"
End of the day, be thankful your management team kept all of you employed, cant recall any pilots being made redundant at VB during the recent gfc.
Dont go getting all insecure, if VB offer DEC, it would be of temporay nature to fill a gap (contracted term). Got to love the comments about shoving experience, when on the other side of the coin you guys complain when recruits straight out of school with $$$ go buy themselves a job on the right hand seat. "need bush time" i hear you cry. hypocrites.
Greenslopes good point re favoritism. Like it or not, we have to get used to it, cos its part of our industry, and be in it long enough we all get to experience it, some more than others. Just comes down to how you deal with it.
Have every faith in your HR team, they must do a good job, and you all quite correct, my experience wont even get me an interview let alone DEC.
Fly safe,
End of the day, be thankful your management team kept all of you employed, cant recall any pilots being made redundant at VB during the recent gfc.
Dont go getting all insecure, if VB offer DEC, it would be of temporay nature to fill a gap (contracted term). Got to love the comments about shoving experience, when on the other side of the coin you guys complain when recruits straight out of school with $$$ go buy themselves a job on the right hand seat. "need bush time" i hear you cry. hypocrites.
Greenslopes good point re favoritism. Like it or not, we have to get used to it, cos its part of our industry, and be in it long enough we all get to experience it, some more than others. Just comes down to how you deal with it.
Have every faith in your HR team, they must do a good job, and you all quite correct, my experience wont even get me an interview let alone DEC.
Fly safe,
IF this goes ahead the New MFO will lose all credibility and respect.
To stand up in forum meetings and ask guys to help us out by taking all leave, Fo's take 50% pay cuts to go to that 777 thing and 737 Fos take pay cuts and move cities to fill EMB slots, only then to do this is disgraceful.
What a formula. Employ 4 mates from SAW and piss off 800 pilots.
Yeah that makes sense.
To stand up in forum meetings and ask guys to help us out by taking all leave, Fo's take 50% pay cuts to go to that 777 thing and 737 Fos take pay cuts and move cities to fill EMB slots, only then to do this is disgraceful.
What a formula. Employ 4 mates from SAW and piss off 800 pilots.
Yeah that makes sense.
P-air
Before we get all warm and fuzzy about just how good a job DJ management did keeping people employed, perhaps we should look at the real deciding factors.
DJ were between a rock and a hard place with their crewing of the E-jet. A situation created wholey by the decision to screw pilots out of more of their terms and conditions. 20% less to fly the jungle jet. Some may argue fair enough, but it had consequences. Why take an E-jet command when for a large number of F/O's a 737 command was just around the corner. Why fly a jet for the same company and have to take a paycut for the privilige! Is it any wonder that most chose to stay put.
So, DJ decide to recruit externally, fair enough also. Suddenly there are approx 50 737 pilots in surplus. Threats of retrenchments follow. If you don't move to the E-jet or (God forbid VA as a CFO!) then you may be out of a job. Wait a minute! As a DJ 737 F/O I have seniority to most of the E-jet F/O's, they'll have to go first. Oh no says management, redundancies are based on fleet not seniority. What a blatent lie!!! The AFAP told them so, but management still insisted.
So what happened? Nothing, that's what. These clowns soon realised that it was a battle they couldn't win. Some pilots, either lacking spine or any sort of appreciation of the true nature of events allowed themselves to be disadvantaged. Some people you just can't help. For the remainder, well done by sticking to what was true.
The only reason DJ kept on the surplus was because they had no choice. All they had to do to avoid this whole bull**** episode was to offer a comparable wages and conditions package for the E-jet. In the big scheme of things the cost would have been more than offset by the goodwill it would have generated.
But as I said, some people just can't be helped.
Before we get all warm and fuzzy about just how good a job DJ management did keeping people employed, perhaps we should look at the real deciding factors.
DJ were between a rock and a hard place with their crewing of the E-jet. A situation created wholey by the decision to screw pilots out of more of their terms and conditions. 20% less to fly the jungle jet. Some may argue fair enough, but it had consequences. Why take an E-jet command when for a large number of F/O's a 737 command was just around the corner. Why fly a jet for the same company and have to take a paycut for the privilige! Is it any wonder that most chose to stay put.
So, DJ decide to recruit externally, fair enough also. Suddenly there are approx 50 737 pilots in surplus. Threats of retrenchments follow. If you don't move to the E-jet or (God forbid VA as a CFO!) then you may be out of a job. Wait a minute! As a DJ 737 F/O I have seniority to most of the E-jet F/O's, they'll have to go first. Oh no says management, redundancies are based on fleet not seniority. What a blatent lie!!! The AFAP told them so, but management still insisted.
So what happened? Nothing, that's what. These clowns soon realised that it was a battle they couldn't win. Some pilots, either lacking spine or any sort of appreciation of the true nature of events allowed themselves to be disadvantaged. Some people you just can't help. For the remainder, well done by sticking to what was true.
The only reason DJ kept on the surplus was because they had no choice. All they had to do to avoid this whole bull**** episode was to offer a comparable wages and conditions package for the E-jet. In the big scheme of things the cost would have been more than offset by the goodwill it would have generated.
But as I said, some people just can't be helped.
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'small digression to defend my profession':
quote:
"If true - it's just another attempt by a desperate bunch of short sighted accountants, trying to ensure their bonuses."
Lets get two things straight:
1. Accountants very rarely get bonuses...and if they do, its very little; and
2. decisions such as what you're talking about are made by SENIOR MANAGEMENT (the majority of whom are NOT accountants except for the CFO), especially operational managers/GMs with limited input from accountants.
Thats like me saying 'the pilots who serve drinks/food on the plane aren't very good" or something (generalisation).
*rant off...we don't need to see identification, these aren't the droids we're looking for, move along...move along*
quote:
"If true - it's just another attempt by a desperate bunch of short sighted accountants, trying to ensure their bonuses."
Lets get two things straight:
1. Accountants very rarely get bonuses...and if they do, its very little; and
2. decisions such as what you're talking about are made by SENIOR MANAGEMENT (the majority of whom are NOT accountants except for the CFO), especially operational managers/GMs with limited input from accountants.
Thats like me saying 'the pilots who serve drinks/food on the plane aren't very good" or something (generalisation).
*rant off...we don't need to see identification, these aren't the droids we're looking for, move along...move along*
I think it is worth clarifying, before misunderstanding adds surplus fuel to this fire.
VB pilots on the whole understand it may be necessary to employ DECs to cover the previously-unplanned arrival of two E190 airframes. If these chaps are taken on a contract basis, while there is insufficient time to train EJet pilots they enable VB to take on more flying and secure more jobs for VB pilots. This surely can't take more than 3-6 months. They would be welcome to stay on as permanently employed FOs once the required tenure is up, and wait in the same queue as everyone else for their permanent commands.
If they are offered permanent DECs then this is the slap in the face for all VB FOs that is upsetting not only the FO ranks but the pilot body at large. There is no clear indication from the company what basis their employment is proposed to be.
That they would be offered the most desired base, Brisbane, while there are EJet captains waiting to return to the sunshine state just adds insult to injury.
VB pilots on the whole understand it may be necessary to employ DECs to cover the previously-unplanned arrival of two E190 airframes. If these chaps are taken on a contract basis, while there is insufficient time to train EJet pilots they enable VB to take on more flying and secure more jobs for VB pilots. This surely can't take more than 3-6 months. They would be welcome to stay on as permanently employed FOs once the required tenure is up, and wait in the same queue as everyone else for their permanent commands.
If they are offered permanent DECs then this is the slap in the face for all VB FOs that is upsetting not only the FO ranks but the pilot body at large. There is no clear indication from the company what basis their employment is proposed to be.
That they would be offered the most desired base, Brisbane, while there are EJet captains waiting to return to the sunshine state just adds insult to injury.
Internal applicants will be given priority over external applicants provided the internal applicants have the requisite skills, performance history and experience
Look at the root cause, as it sounds like some of your blue badge peers have a lot to answer for.
Or maybe your recruitment department has the wrong philosophy on pilots.
Last edited by KABOY; 5th Nov 2009 at 23:36.
What a formula. Employ 4 mates from SAW and piss off 800 pilots
Oh dear, all the best chaps. I hope the Feds actually do something about it this time, they sat on their hands and were very quiet in March/April.....
OK everybody,
The facts are, as of this morning, it hasn't happened. It DOESN'T mean it won't happen. If they have any sense,(not yet ever) , management will assess just how much this stupidity will cost in dollars and cents. Absolutely, guarranteed this will end up in court if they go down this road. Bypass pay for 80+ pilots plus legal fees, bad press and the "I am an army of one brigade" will make it so prohibitively expensive they would be utter morons to persist with this tactic. Not to mention what will happen when we start negotiating the next EBA.
Mind you, it will make a great second installment for a youtube video...
The facts are, as of this morning, it hasn't happened. It DOESN'T mean it won't happen. If they have any sense,(not yet ever) , management will assess just how much this stupidity will cost in dollars and cents. Absolutely, guarranteed this will end up in court if they go down this road. Bypass pay for 80+ pilots plus legal fees, bad press and the "I am an army of one brigade" will make it so prohibitively expensive they would be utter morons to persist with this tactic. Not to mention what will happen when we start negotiating the next EBA.
Mind you, it will make a great second installment for a youtube video...
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In other words, you are yet to fly into the side of a mountain
If you ever venture out of the 95% benign wx and comparatively great, english speaking ATC, you might see that intell pilot is not too far off the mark ( maybe 2-1 not 4-1 though )
In spite of this I am having trouble understanding what VB managements " jobs for the boys " attitude ( which to my knowledge has not changed since day 1) has to do with taking your frustrations out on pilots who fly out of HK
Unless there is a recruitment ban ( BTW, the last one up here, CX and KA, was ignored by numerous Oz pilots ) what do you expect these candidates to do ?
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I fly into Asia a few times a month on average and dont really see that it makes me more experienced or gains experience any faster or flying there is somehow more valuable than flying somewhere else.
Yes, I agree it is different experience but it is not "better".
And even if it was acually somehow better, so what? Its not like you have to deal with most of the challenges down here that flying up there brings.
Big deal.
Certainly no reason to employ a DEC over an experienced and capable F/O that passes his checks well.
Yes, I agree it is different experience but it is not "better".
And even if it was acually somehow better, so what? Its not like you have to deal with most of the challenges down here that flying up there brings.
Big deal.
Certainly no reason to employ a DEC over an experienced and capable F/O that passes his checks well.
Last edited by waren9; 6th Nov 2009 at 06:29. Reason: speeling
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Kiddies,
I think as it was breifly mentioned - it is quite possibly, more than likely, a timing issue to ensure the airframes are flying, and not pissing blood sitting on the tarmac. Big picture, short words, big letters. Look at moi, look at moi, stop focusing on yourselves for a change - being pilots I know, it is all about moi - Kimmy. But an aircraft on the ground costs money, and eventually jobs - been there done that. So take a breath, and wait
I think as it was breifly mentioned - it is quite possibly, more than likely, a timing issue to ensure the airframes are flying, and not pissing blood sitting on the tarmac. Big picture, short words, big letters. Look at moi, look at moi, stop focusing on yourselves for a change - being pilots I know, it is all about moi - Kimmy. But an aircraft on the ground costs money, and eventually jobs - been there done that. So take a breath, and wait
So what are you saying wateroff, give them the green light regardless of whether it's right or wrong. If that's the case, then why don't we simply give management the go ahead to do whatever they want irrespective of who's stuff up it is!
If pilot groups gave the OK for a breech of an EBA/Award condition everytime management cried poor (as a result of their own incompetance I might add), then pilots would have no Lifestyle/Terms and conditions left. Something, airlines have been working steadily towards for years.
Wake up. Know your adversary!
If pilot groups gave the OK for a breech of an EBA/Award condition everytime management cried poor (as a result of their own incompetance I might add), then pilots would have no Lifestyle/Terms and conditions left. Something, airlines have been working steadily towards for years.
Wake up. Know your adversary!