Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

The Men Who Killed Qantas

Old 29th Oct 2009, 08:11
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lhr - Syd - Lax
Posts: 356
I also obtained a copy.

An initial skim through the pages was, to me, utterly disappointing - the title and the contents seem to come from two different books. I hope on a second look that I change my mind, but I doubt it.

The round filing cabinet is looking a good destination for it.

N
noip is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 09:10
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 324
Just bought it and read the first chapter. Just going by the costings in the book it will take approx 25-30 years of the cost savings from not using reverse thrust to pay for the cost of repairing OJH. So no cost savings whatsoever, just more money wasted, and this is only the first chapter.
rammel is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 09:32
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lhr - Syd - Lax
Posts: 356
Rammel,

Just a slight correction to forstall any mis-representation .. at no stage did Qantas ever have a policy of not using reverse thrust ...... idle reverse, yes. It is my belief that the concentrating on this aspect was a little over-done.


N
noip is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 09:47
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 324
Noip,

Yes, sorry about that. The book doesn't say that they never use it. It may have been over done a bit, but it did highlight the fact that the procedure was adopted as a cost saving, without it seems too much due diligence done.
rammel is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 10:22
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 142
Book is disappointing - lacks a killer blow...
SkyScanner is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 21:39
  #26 (permalink)  
Registered User **
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 65
Posts: 2,346
at no stage did Qantas ever have a policy of not using reverse thrust ...... idle reverse, yes.
Noip....isn't that playing with semantics?

SkyScanner....I think if you were expecting a killer blow or some startling revelation that is the death knell of any particular individual or the discovery of "the smoking gun" then you are missing the point of the book....

Rather from what I have read it is more about an exposť of some sad and expensive decisions and their impact on an Australian icon....
lowerlobe is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 23:33
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,153
Noip.

Notwithstanding the fact that the Captain, in reversing the decision to go-around at such a critical stage, and in a manner that removed the rest of the crew from the loop (still amazes me), the final nail so to speak was the non application of full reverse. The question of course is why?

Irrespective of what may be written in the ops manual, the reason the Crew of QF1 did not select Full reverse, is because when the chips were down and the sh!t hit the fan, that aspect of operating the A/C had effectively been trained out of them! Human nature 101. Something that the been counters and much of QF management had absolutely no idea about.
KRUSTY 34 is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 00:10
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lhr - Syd - Lax
Posts: 356
Lowerlobe.
No, it's not playing with semantics. Not in the least. There is a huge difference between landing with idle forward thust set, and idle reverse. The very act of moving your hand forward and engaging the reverse thrust levers, for one thing.

Krusty,

Yes, I pretty well agree with you - the only question I have in my mind is that I don't think they selected ANY reverse thrust. When I read the report, I had the impression they became target fixated, thought "shit, the brakes don't work" and then spent all their time tromping on them and forgot to engage the reverse thrust. I'm saying this from memory, so my aging brain cells may have changed the plot a bit, but I think that's about it.

So from that viewpoint, I disagree with the report that came to the conclusion they had had the reverse thrust trained out of them. I find it difficult to believe a highly experienced pilot (I am talking generalities here) with many years of applying reverse thrust can have it trained out of him in just a few months.

But it is all history and no amount of thinking about it will fix the outcome. Like most things, there was no "one" cause of this unfortunate event. We can but learn from other's misfortune and try our best to not step in the same cow-paddy.



N

PS .... I'm still sorely disappointed with the book. The round filing cabinet is looking better all the time - though I might keep it for the howlers.
noip is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 00:56
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 503
Wink reverse sexism

...lets not forget that there has been a woman involved in this "murder" as well aka:

THE MEN & WOMAN THAT KILLED QANTAS

The Dame was all over it. Who could forget the now infamous quote from her ,....." if the shareholders don't vote this APA up they are DUMB" !

And the photo of Dixon and her hugging each other after the deal was announced

Now that is the sort of content-you need to trawl through for a good read. Its all there. Scott Rochfort from SMH was the only journo with the B--LLS to hammer QF at the time. He should of got a Walkely award for his bravery.

I could also name a number of other women in management who have spun their web and trapped many an unsuspecting victim...... But alas I know what Black Widows do after they mate.
stubby jumbo is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 01:10
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,153
Thanks noip, I guess we'll have to agree to dissagree on some points.

As I said, the decision to continue with the landing after the go-around was commenced, was manifestly wrong. I'd be surprised if the QF ops manual didn't have some guidelines on that. I know mine does! But it happened. Experienced people are still capable of poor decisions, and there for the grace of God go us all! However, if the F/O had been told to land rather than having the Captain physically placing his hands on the thrust levers, then The F/O may very well have ignored this order and continued with the correct course of action. Who knows?

With regard to your assertion that someone of the Captain's standing could not have a previously routine procedure trained out of them, well I simply don't buy that also. QF had adopted this procedure for some years before it caught up with them. Plenty of time for it to sink in. Also the Capt was trained on the 744 exclusively using this method of operation.

The Captain may have been a highly respected and experienced Training Captain (previously on the 767 if my info is correct), but he is still human, and when faced with a "sudden" crisis, in this case the need for full reverse, Human beings usually revert to what they are most familiar with.

So, I actually think the Author has got this right. Ultimately a decision made years previously to introduce an SOP, by people without a clue to the dynamics of human factors in the cockpit. IMHO, a bad decision made in the heat of the moment followed by a flawed SOP!
KRUSTY 34 is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 04:11
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lhr - Syd - Lax
Posts: 356
Krusty, we agree on about 99.9% of the stuff - my views are but a small wrinkle as far as differences go.

back to the book ........


noip is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 04:40
  #32 (permalink)  
Registered User **
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 65
Posts: 2,346
Noip....

I'm afraid I too will have to agree to disagree with you on your definition of semantics in regard to reverse thrust...

To say there was a policy of only using idle reverse thrust in general circumstances is to say that there was a policy against using full reverse thrust....therefore it is disingenuous to say that there was at no time a policy against using reverse thrust.....and as I said a matter of semantics.
lowerlobe is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 07:24
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lhr - Syd - Lax
Posts: 356
LL

I don't understand why this has become such an issue - initially I was trying to stop the inevitable impression that the aircraft were using idle forward thrust on the landing roll. This is a HUGE difference to even having idle reverse. At least you slow down with idle reverse, and you at have to make the effort to raise the reverse thrust levers.

Oh, and don't get the impression I support a blanket idle reverse policy - I'm not trying to defend what happened, just trying to stop some journo accusing the airline of not even engaging reverse thrust.

As for me - Keep it simple is my byline. I'm old and grumpy and HATE the way the lawyers have gotten into everything so that the powers that be find the need to micro-manage every conceivable eventuality. If we aren't careful, the pre-flight briefing will end up with the S/O opening the Ops Manual at page 1 and being asked to start reading.

The FOPAM was much thinner.

sigh

N

Now ... where's that red?


And the book is still disappointing....
noip is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 15:41
  #34 (permalink)  
Registered User **
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 65
Posts: 2,346
noip....

I was not commenting on the BKK incident,QF or any airline in particular...

I was commenting on your phraseology....
lowerlobe is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 19:55
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stralya
Posts: 577
Whilst this book may lack the killer punch(and I haven't read it yet), do not forget that until this point there had been very little comment about Q that attempted to turn the heat up on the attempts to run the company into the ground.

This is the first book to be published that at least attempts to focus some light on a dark corner of our industry. It happens all over the place in every industry. The lack of corporate governance allowed it to occur. We watched Enron, had the likes of Dunlap at Email and the idiot at HP. Funnily enough successive governments watched it happen overseas and did nothing and it nearly happened here..

Let's hope there are a few more books, Project Suzie was very real, both with Kerry and his son later on. Of course the silver donut was all over it. Boston Consulting proably too!
QFinsider is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 22:55
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 166
Load of bloody crap

Find some disgruntled employees Write a book slagging an airline with an enviable saefty record. Reminds of the clown on the channel 7 show titled Scarebus trying to sell his book by scaremongering
captaintunedog777 is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 23:31
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NSW
Posts: 131
Book or no Book; had the APA Takeover Bid for Qantas gone through, Australia, Qantas' Shareholders and Employees, not to mention the travelling public, would all have a real mess on their hands.

Thank god it didn't.

If nothing else, The Men Who Killed Qantas will help focus necesary attention on why QAN's Corporate Governance failed to protect: long run economic interest, national interest and many thousands of Australian Jobs.

A national vote of thanks needs to go to Matthew Benns for having the courage to do what he can to make sure this sorry episode isn't simply brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

History can not be allowed to repeat itself.
Gingerbread is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2009, 23:52
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 27
I saw it in Borders in Parramatta yesterday but bought something else instead. Migh wait for the local Library to get it.
MrSydney is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2009, 00:34
  #39 (permalink)  
Registered User **
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 65
Posts: 2,346
captaintunedog777....

Let's look at one of the chapters....

How about the one involving price fixing with cargo ....

Can you explain to me what part of that is a load of bloody crap.....
lowerlobe is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2009, 03:38
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 72
Posts: 20
Read it with great expectaions , outcome ,totally boring , still the author will make a quid . Now I wonder what the reall story is ?
OlAME is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.