I'll never fly a LCC because...
Senior F/A, Cabin Manager with allowances wouldn't have been too far shy of that figure towards the end of the decade.
Unfortunately we are in a race to the bottom regarding airline staff pay and conditions. I would love to have been an airline pilot during the 1970s, then it was a top job. Paid training, mega salaries, easy life with 5* hotel night stops, reasonable monthly hours, good benefits and a nice pension.
Today the pay is reasonably good but the training is at your own expense and the benefits and pension fast disappearing. Flight time limitations are now targets. In another 10-20 years what used to be standard airline conditions will the exception. Just ask the Cathay pilots today to compare their terms to the old "A" scalers.
I need my job in order to pay the morgage, buy food and give me a reasonable lifestyle. In return for this I expect to work and be paid in accordance with my skills and experience. If you want to sit in my seat it's likely to cost you $100 000 IF you are capable of doing it.
My job only lasts as long as my employer makes money. My employer doesn't make money when forced to pay certain people more than they are worth and suffer the cost of their unrealistic work practices, all backed up by the union. Especially when the competition don't have this problem.
BTW Not many airlines are making money at the moment, Air India and Japan Airlines are both looking for bail outs. Those left standing will be the ones with sufficient reserves built up to ride out his down turn (Ryan Air) or government backing (QATAR)
Unfortunately we are in a race to the bottom regarding airline staff pay and conditions. I would love to have been an airline pilot during the 1970s, then it was a top job. Paid training, mega salaries, easy life with 5* hotel night stops, reasonable monthly hours, good benefits and a nice pension.
Today the pay is reasonably good but the training is at your own expense and the benefits and pension fast disappearing. Flight time limitations are now targets. In another 10-20 years what used to be standard airline conditions will the exception. Just ask the Cathay pilots today to compare their terms to the old "A" scalers.
I need my job in order to pay the morgage, buy food and give me a reasonable lifestyle. In return for this I expect to work and be paid in accordance with my skills and experience. If you want to sit in my seat it's likely to cost you $100 000 IF you are capable of doing it.
My job only lasts as long as my employer makes money. My employer doesn't make money when forced to pay certain people more than they are worth and suffer the cost of their unrealistic work practices, all backed up by the union. Especially when the competition don't have this problem.
BTW Not many airlines are making money at the moment, Air India and Japan Airlines are both looking for bail outs. Those left standing will be the ones with sufficient reserves built up to ride out his down turn (Ryan Air) or government backing (QATAR)
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Senior F/A, Cabin Manager with allowances wouldn't have been too far shy of that figure towards the end of the decade.
My employer doesn't make money when forced to pay certain people more than they are worth and suffer the cost of their unrealistic work practices, all backed up by the union
If you want to sit in my seat it's likely to cost you $100 000 IF you are capable of doing it.
Metro Man...It would appear as though you do not have any idea of what it costs to buy a business today ...$100,000 would not buy you a paper run these days and there is no guarantee of any income later so why should you be any different.
I earn about AU$120 000 depending on the exchange rate, most of which is take home because of low income tax. This is the type of money airlines here have to pay to attract suitable people. There is no union agreement it's simply what we are worth at the moment. If they don't pay it, pilots will leave and the aircraft will sit on the ground. At the moment it's an employers market so we're not in a position to ask for more, however once things pick up again pay will need to go up or there will be a mass exodus.
My job is more secure because the unions are in no position to hold the company to ransom with unrealistic demands from people who could easily be replaced.
I could learn very quickly how to load a bag into the hold, or pass a drink to a passenger. How long for a loader or flight attendent to pilot an airliner ?
Airline pilots are an elite and our conditions should reflect this. We should be paid considerably more than flight attendents and loaders.
That's the trouble with Australia not having a proper class system, everyone thinks they're equal where as over here skilled people are respected and rewarded.
My job is more secure because the unions are in no position to hold the company to ransom with unrealistic demands from people who could easily be replaced.
I could learn very quickly how to load a bag into the hold, or pass a drink to a passenger. How long for a loader or flight attendent to pilot an airliner ?
Airline pilots are an elite and our conditions should reflect this. We should be paid considerably more than flight attendents and loaders.
That's the trouble with Australia not having a proper class system, everyone thinks they're equal where as over here skilled people are respected and rewarded.
Last edited by Metro man; 31st Oct 2009 at 07:03.
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That's the trouble with Australia not having a proper class system, everyone thinks they're equal where as over here skilled people are respected and rewarded.
Airline pilots are an elite and our conditions should reflect this.
The movie 'The Right Stuff' would be like viagra for you....
We should be paid considerably more than flight attendents and loaders.
I could learn very quickly how to load a bag into the hold, or pass a drink to a passenger
My job is more secure because the unions are in no position to hold the company to ransom with unrealistic demands from people who could easily be replaced.
There is no union agreement it's simply what we are worth at the moment
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Airline pilots are an elite and our conditions should reflect this. We should be paid considerably more than flight attendents and loaders.
That's the trouble with Australia not having a proper class system, everyone thinks they're equal where as over here skilled people are respected and rewarded.
That's the trouble with Australia not having a proper class system, everyone thinks they're equal where as over here skilled people are respected and rewarded.
You are the type of Pilot that gives Pilots a bad name.
Ansett going broke was no help to me, I had my application on file with them at the time. I ended up overseas as did many ex Ansett pilots, and a sudden dumping of hundreds of jet drivers on the job market at once benefitted only the employers, many of them in this part of the world.
Had Ansett enjoyed competent management and a flexible workforce it might still be around today and Virgin Blue could have been another Compass.
Instead, the only airline left in Australia with traditional airline conditions is QANTAS, and they're under pressure from Virgin, Tiger and their own Jetstar. The race to the bottom is on. The demise of Ansett gave a massive ramp up to Virgin Blue with their reduced conditions and pay for your own rating deal.
Singapore Airline pilots negotiating position on their contract was weakened with the applications from well qualified candidates flooding in.
Ansett employees contributed to its down fall with inflexible working practices and rather queered the pitch for everyone else when they came onto the job market in large numbers. Especially when other airlines could point to them as an example of what could happen if changes weren't made in the employers favour.
Charles Darwin found that the animals best able to survive weren't the biggest or the strongest, but the most adaptable.
BTW I certainly staying over here, better pay, better opportunities, lower taxes and the profession of pilot is respected.
Had Ansett enjoyed competent management and a flexible workforce it might still be around today and Virgin Blue could have been another Compass.
Instead, the only airline left in Australia with traditional airline conditions is QANTAS, and they're under pressure from Virgin, Tiger and their own Jetstar. The race to the bottom is on. The demise of Ansett gave a massive ramp up to Virgin Blue with their reduced conditions and pay for your own rating deal.
Singapore Airline pilots negotiating position on their contract was weakened with the applications from well qualified candidates flooding in.
Ansett employees contributed to its down fall with inflexible working practices and rather queered the pitch for everyone else when they came onto the job market in large numbers. Especially when other airlines could point to them as an example of what could happen if changes weren't made in the employers favour.
Charles Darwin found that the animals best able to survive weren't the biggest or the strongest, but the most adaptable.
BTW I certainly staying over here, better pay, better opportunities, lower taxes and the profession of pilot is respected.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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With all due respect to some, I am beginning to wonder just what relevance the last few pages of posts have to the title of this thread.
And no, I will never fly with a LCC. For more than a few reasons.
And no, I will never fly with a LCC. For more than a few reasons.
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"The main difference was QANTAS in the past ran its business in such a way that it was profitable and could sustain a high cost unionised workplace."
Ahhh, mate, hate to burst your bubble but for most of QF history, it was a Government run airline and spent decades losing money that was supported by the tax payer. Being "run as a business" is a relatively new idea at QF and is only possible now as a result of my tax dollars propping it up to fly the flag as a flying club for all of those years before it was privatised.
Ahhh, mate, hate to burst your bubble but for most of QF history, it was a Government run airline and spent decades losing money that was supported by the tax payer. Being "run as a business" is a relatively new idea at QF and is only possible now as a result of my tax dollars propping it up to fly the flag as a flying club for all of those years before it was privatised.
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In other words unionism is not allowed where you work.....
and lowerlobe stop being a tool and writing such dribble. At least Metro speaks more sense than you have ever done.
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oicur12 Ahhh, mate, hate to burst your bubble but ...... Qantas was a private company whose shares were all purchased by the Federal Government after World War 2. It regularly made a profit and paid a dividend to the Government. Qantas was not a Government run airline, had it's own board and staff were not public servants but employees of Qantas Empire Airways Ltd. It's a much bigger airline since privatisation and the takeover of Qantas by Australian Airlines 
and at times I'm not so sure that being "run as a business" has been a good thing in light of the Global Financial Crisis and its associated Corporate Greed, make that organised sanctioned theft. If you'd like anymore info than please feel free to ask. 
Sunstar320 if you don't stop playing with your pitot tube you'll go blind
and at times I'm not so sure that being "run as a business" has been a good thing in light of the Global Financial Crisis and its associated Corporate Greed, make that organised sanctioned theft. If you'd like anymore info than please feel free to ask. Sunstar320 if you don't stop playing with your pitot tube you'll go blind
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At least Metro speaks more sense than you have ever done.
Sunstar320....when you finally become a pilot and in Metro Man's class society a member of Australia's elite then you can tell us your thoughts....ROFL
Incorrect. There is most certainly a union involved in one part of metro's employer down south.
Schlonghaul is right and some here should stop playing with their pitot tubes...
I think you maybe missing the point Metro man is trying to make. It is hard and very expensive to become an airline pilot. $100 000 would be about the minimum training required to sit in the right hand seat with the minimum hours, even in a regional.
To replace a flight attendant with some one off the street takes about 6 weeks with line training (ish). To replace a First officer with a person off the street would take approximately 1 year just for the licence before the 2-3Months of endorsement and line training. To replace a Captain with someone off the street would take….minimum 3 years just to obtain the licence, most likely 5 for the minimum standard. I’m not sure how long it takes to learn how to pack bags in the back, when I did it they just assumed I knew what I was doing
To replace a flight attendant with some one off the street takes about 6 weeks with line training (ish). To replace a First officer with a person off the street would take approximately 1 year just for the licence before the 2-3Months of endorsement and line training. To replace a Captain with someone off the street would take….minimum 3 years just to obtain the licence, most likely 5 for the minimum standard. I’m not sure how long it takes to learn how to pack bags in the back, when I did it they just assumed I knew what I was doing
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That might be correct for the newbies coming in now, but for many of the high hour contract pilots preently roaming the world, picking and choosing where and what, they would have done not much more than forked out for a commercial pilots licence and a twin/IFR rating, and by a relatively young age, their RPT employer would have paid top $ for every rating, every hour there-after .. single pilot turbine, turbine 2 pilot, then to the fully paid cycle of jet ratings and endorsements - thats how it was not too long ago.
Times have changed. I hope all who deserve it, get top dollars and a happy family.
Times have changed. I hope all who deserve it, get top dollars and a happy family.
