Ansett gone .......but ?
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Okay, I cannot just forget all about 45 of Airline experience just because of a few annoying children here, and others that obviously have no first hand knowledge of the Industry.
Yes I was with Ansett from 1963 until 1990 and have many pleasant memories of that time, a GREAT Company up until about 1979 when taken over by TNT/News.
Under the then highly regulated system we flew identical Aircraft, over mainly identical routes at identical fares and even usually at identical times, you had places like TSV and CNS with only 2 or 3 flights a day with each Airline (AN and TN) and the flights would arrive and depart within a few minutes of each other.
A very highly regulated system, at very high fares (compared to now) but at a very high level of service.
As I said before I have NO personal knowledge of AN after 1990.
With deregulation, and the arrival of Compass, this was the last thing TNT/News wanted as AN was already having financial problems, and YES there were some terrible things done by AN (TNT/News) to Compass, I won't go on about it all here, but I have first hand direct knowledge of a lot of the things, not just the things like mentioned before where AN stood by and watched but where they actively interfered. Things like trying to stop us getting fuel, having his mate the silver bodgie arranging nasty visits from CASA, and even when we had a breakdown one time in CNS and no other flight of ours going that way, we tried to consign the spares with AN on an AOG basis and they refused. THEY actually got into trouble over this as under IATA regulations one IATA Airline can NOT refuse to carry the AOG spares of ANY fellow IATA Airline.
Anyone just in case anyone still thinks that Sir Peter did not do anything to Compass 1 and 2, one of the worst things I have ever seen and I was personally there when it happened was with Southern Cross. We were over at McDonnell Douglas in the USA doing the MD80 Courses prior to start up, about lunch time on the second day our American Instructor was called to the office, we thought it may have been because he was in the National Guard and it was right after all those LA riots. Anyway when he returned he asked us who the hell was Sir Peter Abeles? We told him, and he said he has been on to McDonnell Douglas and threatened that IF we let you have these new MD80s, he will make sure none of his Companies like AN and TNT ever do business with us again. We said PLEASE tell us you are NOT giving into blackmail? They didn't want to upset him so they had agreed, but they arranged for SAS to supply us with older MD80s, apparently there was NO shortage of Companies that had no time for Sir Peter.
Yes I was with Ansett from 1963 until 1990 and have many pleasant memories of that time, a GREAT Company up until about 1979 when taken over by TNT/News.
Under the then highly regulated system we flew identical Aircraft, over mainly identical routes at identical fares and even usually at identical times, you had places like TSV and CNS with only 2 or 3 flights a day with each Airline (AN and TN) and the flights would arrive and depart within a few minutes of each other.
A very highly regulated system, at very high fares (compared to now) but at a very high level of service.
As I said before I have NO personal knowledge of AN after 1990.
With deregulation, and the arrival of Compass, this was the last thing TNT/News wanted as AN was already having financial problems, and YES there were some terrible things done by AN (TNT/News) to Compass, I won't go on about it all here, but I have first hand direct knowledge of a lot of the things, not just the things like mentioned before where AN stood by and watched but where they actively interfered. Things like trying to stop us getting fuel, having his mate the silver bodgie arranging nasty visits from CASA, and even when we had a breakdown one time in CNS and no other flight of ours going that way, we tried to consign the spares with AN on an AOG basis and they refused. THEY actually got into trouble over this as under IATA regulations one IATA Airline can NOT refuse to carry the AOG spares of ANY fellow IATA Airline.
Anyone just in case anyone still thinks that Sir Peter did not do anything to Compass 1 and 2, one of the worst things I have ever seen and I was personally there when it happened was with Southern Cross. We were over at McDonnell Douglas in the USA doing the MD80 Courses prior to start up, about lunch time on the second day our American Instructor was called to the office, we thought it may have been because he was in the National Guard and it was right after all those LA riots. Anyway when he returned he asked us who the hell was Sir Peter Abeles? We told him, and he said he has been on to McDonnell Douglas and threatened that IF we let you have these new MD80s, he will make sure none of his Companies like AN and TNT ever do business with us again. We said PLEASE tell us you are NOT giving into blackmail? They didn't want to upset him so they had agreed, but they arranged for SAS to supply us with older MD80s, apparently there was NO shortage of Companies that had no time for Sir Peter.
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airsupport, you don't seriously expect anybody to believe the story that Abeles threatened McD and they backed down to him, do you???? Consider the relative sizes of the companies. McD could have financially buried Abeles in less than five minutes if they chose.
Abeles telling McD that he wouldn't deal with them is about as absurd as somebody posting here years back and telling (not asking) pilots to boycott Jetstar because they weren't paying enough. Nobody took any notice just as McD wouldn't have done.
My guess is that the company sourced second hand aircraft form SAS because they were much cheaper.
Regarding assets AN did or did not have, they did discharge $1.2 Billion off debt in two years prior to crashing, and that was BEFORE assets like the Hamilton Island airport were sold off. You either declare profit or discharge debt, but either way, the company makes the money. The owners bled all profits out of the company for years.
I recall doing a tour of Engineering, and a guy in the tyre retreading plant telling the story of where the company bought their tyres. The retreading shop sold them to a Bahamas company (owned by TNT/Newscorp) for a few hundred $$, and AN bought them from that company for thousands of $$. thereby putting AN's profit offshore. The tyre retreading company was only one of dozens of similar arrangements.
When Eddington was pushing a sale, the profits were redirected for a while and discharged some debt to make it more attractive.
But how has air travel changed in Oz since?? Well, travel is very cheap and service is very poor. My guess is that maintenance has suffered somewhat but they're getting away with that currently.
I'm grateful for my time with Ansett, still the best airline I worked for, and it's now been a total of five until my recent retirement. They were managed by a collection of idiots (just check out the fleet managers for a start), and they weren't without faults, but I loved being a part of the great airline they were, regardless.
Abeles telling McD that he wouldn't deal with them is about as absurd as somebody posting here years back and telling (not asking) pilots to boycott Jetstar because they weren't paying enough. Nobody took any notice just as McD wouldn't have done.
My guess is that the company sourced second hand aircraft form SAS because they were much cheaper.
Regarding assets AN did or did not have, they did discharge $1.2 Billion off debt in two years prior to crashing, and that was BEFORE assets like the Hamilton Island airport were sold off. You either declare profit or discharge debt, but either way, the company makes the money. The owners bled all profits out of the company for years.
I recall doing a tour of Engineering, and a guy in the tyre retreading plant telling the story of where the company bought their tyres. The retreading shop sold them to a Bahamas company (owned by TNT/Newscorp) for a few hundred $$, and AN bought them from that company for thousands of $$. thereby putting AN's profit offshore. The tyre retreading company was only one of dozens of similar arrangements.
When Eddington was pushing a sale, the profits were redirected for a while and discharged some debt to make it more attractive.
But how has air travel changed in Oz since?? Well, travel is very cheap and service is very poor. My guess is that maintenance has suffered somewhat but they're getting away with that currently.
I'm grateful for my time with Ansett, still the best airline I worked for, and it's now been a total of five until my recent retirement. They were managed by a collection of idiots (just check out the fleet managers for a start), and they weren't without faults, but I loved being a part of the great airline they were, regardless.
Last edited by KaptinZZ; 27th Sep 2009 at 05:23.
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airsupport, you don't seriously expect anybody to believe the story that Abeles threatened McD and they backed down to him, do you???? Consider the relative sizes of the companies. McD could have financially buried Abeles in less than five minutes if they chose.
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Quote:
( recall doing a tour of Engineering, and a guy in the tyre retreading plant telling the story of where the company bought their tyres. The retreading shop sold them to a Bahamas company (owned by TNT/Newscorp) for a few hundred $$, and AN bought them from that company for thousands of $$. thereby putting AN's profit offshore. The tyre retreading company was only one of dozens of similar arrangements)
All International Operators do that ! I remember one RDB with a hangar in YBAF where the aircraft were overhauled after ferrying in, and a holding account in a nearby Tax Free country were the excess payments were sent while the direct cost was remitted to the hangar operation.
All while exhorting us to fly more, carry more, and accept less salary.
Standard Procedure.
( recall doing a tour of Engineering, and a guy in the tyre retreading plant telling the story of where the company bought their tyres. The retreading shop sold them to a Bahamas company (owned by TNT/Newscorp) for a few hundred $$, and AN bought them from that company for thousands of $$. thereby putting AN's profit offshore. The tyre retreading company was only one of dozens of similar arrangements)
All International Operators do that ! I remember one RDB with a hangar in YBAF where the aircraft were overhauled after ferrying in, and a holding account in a nearby Tax Free country were the excess payments were sent while the direct cost was remitted to the hangar operation.
All while exhorting us to fly more, carry more, and accept less salary.
Standard Procedure.
Last edited by frigatebird; 27th Sep 2009 at 06:44.
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airsupport, you don't seriously expect anybody to believe the story that Abeles threatened McD and they backed down to him, do you???? Consider the relative sizes of the companies. McD could have financially buried Abeles in less than five minutes if they chose.
As I mentioned before we were about half way through the second day of our course at the time, we were sent home (not home to Australia but back to our apartments) for the rest of that day and one more while the Instructors altered the course to suit the differences between the New MD80s and the SAS MD80s, then we resumed the course, all thanks to Sir Peter.
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...what is it with you people, what the heck did Sir Peter have to do with Ansetts collapse at the hands of ANZ...they were the ones with their hands on the levers, if SQ got hold of AN then Ansett would have used QF as arse-wipe. ANZ would have been making money as well...
...and what is it that Ansett was the only one that caused the demise of Compass...wasn't Australian just as culpable in competing with Compass as well, what! AN and TN was supposed to do nothing, just let a competitor errode your customer base, what does QF, Tiger, Virgin, Jet*, they compete and let the customer choose.
...and why don't you guys talk about Douglas Reid your hero ceo of Compass MK-II.....didn't he get convicted and sent to jail for stealing millions from the company, so why is Sir Peter so vilified, he wasn't around when Ansett collapsed...
...and what is it that Ansett was the only one that caused the demise of Compass...wasn't Australian just as culpable in competing with Compass as well, what! AN and TN was supposed to do nothing, just let a competitor errode your customer base, what does QF, Tiger, Virgin, Jet*, they compete and let the customer choose.
...and why don't you guys talk about Douglas Reid your hero ceo of Compass MK-II.....didn't he get convicted and sent to jail for stealing millions from the company, so why is Sir Peter so vilified, he wasn't around when Ansett collapsed...
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...what is it with you people, what the heck did Sir Peter have to do with Ansetts collapse at the hands of ANZ...they were the ones with their hands on the levers, if SQ got hold of AN then Ansett would have used QF as arse-wipe. ANZ would have been making money as well...
and what is it that Ansett was the only one that caused the demise of Compass...wasn't Australian just as culpable in competing with Compass as well, what! AN and TN was supposed to do nothing, just let a competitor errode your customer base
TN competed with Compass, but in an honest manner, unlike AN. We used TN for all sorts of things, at the market rates. Nobody at Compass minded some good honest competiton, that was why it was started.
and why don't you guys talk about Douglas Reid your hero ceo of Compass MK-II.....didn't he get convicted and sent to jail for stealing millions from the company
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frigatebird, the point I was making was not that "everybody does that", or that it's right or wrong, but that Ansett was making huge profits and they were being sucked out by the owners.
It wasn't a case of not making any money that sent it down the drain; it was a reluctance by the then Minister for Transport, John Anderson, to allow SQ to buy it as that would have killed QF stone dead.
There were a number of factors, of course, but the profits showed that even with mismanagement, it was still a hugely profitable organization. You don't discharge
$1.2 Billion off debt without the ability to generate profit. It is, after all, profit by another name; if it hadn't been taken off debt, it would show up on the balance sheet as profit, or as a finance chap in AN told me, not profit but operating surplus. Call it whatever you want, but it is profit.
AN had been making that sort of profit all along, but it was sucked out by Newscorp and TNT.
For the record, I thought Abeles was a good guy to work for. In the '89 thing, he did whatever he needed to do to run the business. He had an obligation to the shareholders to do so. Unpalatable to crew it may have been, but it was them or him. He was so far ahead of the AFAP in contingency planning that he was lonely. He made them look like rank amateurs, which in retrospect, they were.
It wasn't a case of not making any money that sent it down the drain; it was a reluctance by the then Minister for Transport, John Anderson, to allow SQ to buy it as that would have killed QF stone dead.
There were a number of factors, of course, but the profits showed that even with mismanagement, it was still a hugely profitable organization. You don't discharge
$1.2 Billion off debt without the ability to generate profit. It is, after all, profit by another name; if it hadn't been taken off debt, it would show up on the balance sheet as profit, or as a finance chap in AN told me, not profit but operating surplus. Call it whatever you want, but it is profit.
AN had been making that sort of profit all along, but it was sucked out by Newscorp and TNT.
For the record, I thought Abeles was a good guy to work for. In the '89 thing, he did whatever he needed to do to run the business. He had an obligation to the shareholders to do so. Unpalatable to crew it may have been, but it was them or him. He was so far ahead of the AFAP in contingency planning that he was lonely. He made them look like rank amateurs, which in retrospect, they were.
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what the heck did Sir Peter have to do with Ansett's collapse
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...a couple of you guys here are just prized dills....what part of this...that you don't understand...Sir Peter was NOT around for a long time when Ansett went under....IT WAS AIR NEW ZEALAND....AIR NEW ZEALAND HAD THEIR HANDS ON ALL THE LEVERS, they were IN CHARGE, they had 100% of Ansett for quite some time, you want to talk about the assett stripping they (ANZ) did, you idiots are so bitter and twisted and cant see the wood for the trees, get a life, Ansett was going to be powerful force with SQ's backing, Trickie-Dickie who is from the heart-land of the National Party, had Anderson and other cronies in his pocket, they killed off Ansett to protect Qantas.
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Richard,
When the school holidays are over, and you are back at school, PLEASE have your teachers help you to learn to read English.
BTW, absolutely LOVE your username, most appropriate.
When the school holidays are over, and you are back at school, PLEASE have your teachers help you to learn to read English.
BTW, absolutely LOVE your username, most appropriate.
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Back in 2000
The Camerlin group, owns 24.4% of Brierley Investments Ltd (BIL), and, with TEMASEK Holdings of Singapore, controls the company. BIL, formerly a New Zealand conglomerate, is now headquartered in Singapore and registered in Bermuda. It still has major investments in New Zealand including.• Air New Zealand Ltd (30%; another 25% is owned by Singapore Airlines. As well as being New Zealand’s national airline with landing rights accordingly, it is a major owner of skifields and other tourist venues.
Ok ...so who were/are Temasek ...?
Some of you are taking a very simplistic view of things, Im starting to think Airsupport is correct about the school holidays.
Some of you are taking a very simplistic view of things, Im starting to think Airsupport is correct about the school holidays.
The Singaporeans were controlling everything anyway.
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Temasek Holdings
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Temasek Holdings is an investment company owned by the government of Singapore. With an international staff of 350 people, it manages a portfolio of about S$185 billion, or more than US$127 billion, focused primarily in Asia.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Temasek Holdings is an investment company owned by the government of Singapore. With an international staff of 350 people, it manages a portfolio of about S$185 billion, or more than US$127 billion, focused primarily in Asia.
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Fellas, settle down, as a proud pilot of TAA I am very grateful that this great country had such two great airlines as TN and AN, regardless of what happened nothing can take away the history and the proud records of these two fine airlines that can never be replaced, yes they might have cost a bit more but hey, the service was great, the public loved them, and they were a measure of the way the country was progressing at the time. 89 was really the end of them both (and we won't start anything there) the fat man and the silver bodgie made sure of that, but for the crews, both tech and cabin, the ground staff, nothing can take away the best years of our lives, yes we all went on to other airlines, other countries, but it was never the same, we are the lucky ones, what flying, what mates, what a way of life that never will be repeated, my kids now fly, (no doubt like some of yours) and they still love to hear the stories of the "good ol days' so pass the stories on, make sure the airlines are never forgotten, life goes on, times change, but would I swap those times, never.
I want to talk about asset stripping.
By the time ANZ got involved in the corporate rape there was little left.
Abeles and Murdoch took over Ansett Transport Industries. This comprised..
Ansett Airlines.... Provincial Motors (Ford Dealer in Bendigo)
Airlines of NSW .... Wridgway Bros (Removalists )
Airlines of SA .... Ansett Hotels (Several Gateways + Hayman Is )
MMA .... National Instrument Co
Air North ?... Coach Building..Cannot remember the name!
Two TV Stations .... Avis Franchise
Pioneer Tours?... Diners Club Franchise
Ansett Road Freight,
and as far as I recall was wholly Australian owned.
Where is it all now? I had been of the view for many years after that AN was a big empty shell and their biggest asset was the terminal leases.
Rather glad RM was not around to see what was done to a lifetimes work.
I had never seen so much company loyalty and never will in this day and age!
Very proud to have been a cog in a great wheel!
Emeritus
By the time ANZ got involved in the corporate rape there was little left.
Abeles and Murdoch took over Ansett Transport Industries. This comprised..
Ansett Airlines.... Provincial Motors (Ford Dealer in Bendigo)
Airlines of NSW .... Wridgway Bros (Removalists )
Airlines of SA .... Ansett Hotels (Several Gateways + Hayman Is )
MMA .... National Instrument Co
Air North ?... Coach Building..Cannot remember the name!
Two TV Stations .... Avis Franchise
Pioneer Tours?... Diners Club Franchise
Ansett Road Freight,
and as far as I recall was wholly Australian owned.
Where is it all now? I had been of the view for many years after that AN was a big empty shell and their biggest asset was the terminal leases.
Rather glad RM was not around to see what was done to a lifetimes work.
I had never seen so much company loyalty and never will in this day and age!
Very proud to have been a cog in a great wheel!
Emeritus
Ansett Motors was in Hamilton and Casterton.
There were many factors in the demise of the company that l see, and many mentioned here.
Edington was a liquidator for his employer. Strip it, spruce it up a bit and sell it.
The stripping was successful.
Sprucing up was hard to do. Launch into asia just as they have an economic melt down, repaint the tired aircraft, tart-up the terminals, etc.
Selling appeared a problem, but ANZ walked in the door not knowing what due diligence meant, nor cared it seems.
I'm not convinced that AN would be a larger-than-life concern today if SQ had been at the reigns. It would be nothing more than a "domestic feeder" to SQ.
The Star Alliance is another hurdle. SQ, TG, NH wouldn't want them going into asia, whilst UA and NZ would make sure the pacific wasn't crossed. Two main markets they would have been denied access to.
As a humble 6 year (plus 7 years in the subsidiaries) employee up to the end, l did enjoy my time in Ansett. But if it weren't for ANZ and 9/11 it would have been SARS, Bird flu, Swine flu, credit crunch, Jetstar, Tiger...
halas
There were many factors in the demise of the company that l see, and many mentioned here.
Edington was a liquidator for his employer. Strip it, spruce it up a bit and sell it.
The stripping was successful.
Sprucing up was hard to do. Launch into asia just as they have an economic melt down, repaint the tired aircraft, tart-up the terminals, etc.
Selling appeared a problem, but ANZ walked in the door not knowing what due diligence meant, nor cared it seems.
I'm not convinced that AN would be a larger-than-life concern today if SQ had been at the reigns. It would be nothing more than a "domestic feeder" to SQ.
The Star Alliance is another hurdle. SQ, TG, NH wouldn't want them going into asia, whilst UA and NZ would make sure the pacific wasn't crossed. Two main markets they would have been denied access to.
As a humble 6 year (plus 7 years in the subsidiaries) employee up to the end, l did enjoy my time in Ansett. But if it weren't for ANZ and 9/11 it would have been SARS, Bird flu, Swine flu, credit crunch, Jetstar, Tiger...
halas