Delays at Sydney airport

[OZBUSDRIVER]

These may sound like dumb questions- In an ideal world, what numbers of staffing needed for SY TMA APP/DEP? What is an ideal roster? And what actual numbers do we have now? AND, what roster is actually running now?

Was there EVER a time within AirServices or even CAA when the rosters were safely manned?

Sorry, it may help us plebs understand where the issue started...I am having a hard time justifying the extraordinary number of dead weight to actual revenue earning staff. 3000 total with about 800 at the coalface And you return how much every year to the shareholder??????

[tobzalp]

Dead weight? Have a looksie at this..........

Manager ATM Planning & Capability
Manager, Ernst & Young
ATM Capability Manager - National ATC
NOC Optimisation Manager
Business Support Manager
Resource Planning and Rostering Manager
Manager, Business Support
National Operations Centre and CTMS Manager
Program Manager, National Operations Centre (NOC)
Manager, Upper Air Weather Service
NTMP Project Manager
Regional AIM Manager
Manager, Operations Support
National Manager AIS
ATC Projects Implementation Manager
Tower ATC Support and Procedures Manager
National ATC Systems Manager
Operations Manager – Systems
Manager AusFIC
Standards Improvement Manager, ECS
Standards Improvement Manager UAS/RS
Manager, Regional Airports
Relationship Manager
Manager ASEAN Relations
Manager, Contract Management & OCR Accounts
Contracts Manager
Group Operations Manager
Business Services Manager
Manager - Marketing & Relationship Development
Bids and Analysis Manager
Northern Asia / GNSS Sales Manager
National / Defence Sales Manager
PNG Country Program Manager
ITSAP Project Manager
Manager Neighbourhood Capability Development
Project Management & Aviation Solutions Manager
Manager Project Delivery and Aviation Solutions
GBAS Project Manager
Minor Projects Service Delivery Manager
Defence Technical Contract Manager
Product Commercialisation & Aviation Solutions Manager
Enterprise Risk Integration Manager
Manager, Compliance
Manager, National Property
Property and Infrastructure Manager
Facilities Manager
Manager, Property Management
Manager Property Operations
Property Manager
Manager, Security
Manager, Shared Services
Credit Manager
Manager, Operations and Initiatives
Records Management Unit Manager
Manager Airline Relations
Manager, Airport Relations
Defence Relationship and Planning Manager
Defence Relationship Manager
Manager - Environment and Climate Change
Manager Public Affairs
Manager for Regulatory Reform and Business Information
Environment Manager
Manager Business Integration
Accounting Operations – Manager
Business Performance Manager
Manager Corporate Accounting & Policy
Accounting Operations Manager
Financial Accounting & Policy Manager
Manager, Treasury
Manager Taxation
Treasury Operations Manager
Manager Financial Strategy
Strategic Support Manager
Corporate Planning Manager
Business Analysis Manager
Business Planning Manager
Manager Pricing and Revenue
Manager Group Finance
Finance Manager - Corporate Initiatives
Finance Manager – ARFF
Finance Manager – ATC
Finance Manager - Head Office
Finance Manager - Performance Improvement
Finance Manager – TAS
Manager, Procurement & Corporate Efficiency
Advisory Team Manager
Manager, Change Management
Manager Training
Delivery Manager
Design Manager
Planning & Forecasting Manager
Simulator and Support Manager
Manager, People Services
Manager, People Strategy
Human Factors Manager, Operations
Manager Human Factors and Analysis
Human Factors Manager - Research and Design
Manager, Crisis and Continuity Planning
Manager Safety Enhancement and Development
Safety System Manager
Operational Risk System Manager
Workplace System Manager
Manager Safety Programs / CEO Airservices Pacific
Safety Analysis Manager
Northern Safety Programs Manager
Safety Program Identification & Development Manager
Safety Promotions Manager
Southern Safety Programs Manager
Manager, Safety Services
Documentation Services Manager
Northern Safety Services Manager
Southern Safety Manager
Branch Manager, Service Integrity
Engineering Integrity Manager
National Document Manager
Operational Integrity Manager
Regulatory Services Manager
Regulatory Compliance Manager
National Licensing Manager
Manager Strategic Planning
Manager, Intellectual Property
Manager Priority and Coordination
Manager, Business Strategy
Manager Strategy
Branch Manager - Aviation Business Systems
Airways Information Technology Manager
Business Systems Manager
Eurocat Manager – ABS
Infrastructure Services Manager
Test Manager
Manager, Facilities Management Services
Manager, Adelaide FMS
FMS Manager Brisbane Region
Manager, Canberra FMS
FMS Regional Manager Cairns
Manager, Melbourne FMS
Manager, Perth FMS
Manager, Sydney FMS
Technical Manager
Manager, Technical Support FMS
Branch Manager, Planning and Integration
Manager, Asset Lifecycle
Manager, Communications PI
Frequency Spectrum Manager
Manager Information Technology
Manager, Infrastructure
Manager Navigation & Surveillance
Operations Manager, Planning and Integration
Manager, Planning PI
Manager: Information Communication Technology (ICT) Planning
Installation Manager
Procurement and Contracts Manager
Engineering Manager Electronics & Communication
Manager, Project Delivery
Project Manager NTP
Program Manager, Airports and Surveillance
Contracts Project Manager
Project Manager – TEDP
Senior Project Manager - NationalTowers Program
Manager, Resourcing Capability and Asset Services
Laboratory Manager
NTP - Tower Technology Project Manager
Manager, Contract Support
Manager, Contracts
Project Manager, Software and DDID Services
Project Manager – Communications
Business Analyst/Project Manager
Project Manager - TINR Satellite Project
Project Manager TiNR Pilot Network
Manager, TAS Support
Branch Manager, System Operations
Quality Systems Manager
Business Engagement Manager
SO Operations Manager
Service Desk Manager
Manager, Project Performance and Review




176 non operational 'Managers'. That is nearly 1 per 4 controllers and this list does not include anything even remotely operational wheere we have another 200 odd managers across ALMs, Level 3s and supervisor types, all unrated of course.


Superb.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Holy fk! Even the goverment's not that top heavy. And they reckon Qantas has too many chiefs. No wonder there's no money for new controllers.

Manager, National Property
Property and Infrastructure Manager
Facilities Manager
Manager, Property Management
Manager Property Operations
Property Manager

Do these guys all share the one desk? It sounds like they do the same thing...

Relationship Manager

Wouldn't you love to have that on your business card?

[trueline]

Heard a good one the other day:

Senior Advisor Corporate Effectiveness

I suppose there's a Junior Advisor as well?!

[boree3]

Far Canal mate.....I had to pause for oxygen several times scrolling through that list. WTF do they do all day? Email each other to create an impression of "work".......


I couldn`t find a manager for silly ideas though. You know, the one that came up with the idea to cancel leave even though the 'spin' department would have us belive we`re fully staffed. GOODWILL now equals NIL...

[FlexibleResponse]

Now if they could only get rid of those pesky controllers, the system would run seamlessly (and perpetually)!

[airtags]

I loved this one

Manager, Upper Air Weather Service

[An Interested Party]

Most of that admittedly vast list of managers have 'manager' in their title as a result of the contract versus EBA process established some years back. Before that most of them would have been ops support specialists, or some other appropriately demure title, and most would have been paid as part of the relevant ATC or engineering awards.

Having said that, I'd have to agree that the number of support staff or managers is disproportionate to what the organisation actually does (air traffic control for those who've forgotten) and apparently and obviously repetitive if the titles actually represent what the occupants of those positions do for a living.

You'd have to ask the question - if you outsourced the management of the primary function of Airservices Australia - that is, air traffic control and managing the equipment that lets those controllers do their job - how many managers would be employed? I suspect no more than twenty.

Good luck to the new guy at Sydney - all alone from a foreign environment with no support and 150 miles from that wealth of management talent in Canberra.

[max1]

Don't forget the firies, Ausfic, and techs.
I think most of us are flabbergasted at the amount of management concentrated in Canberra doing FIFO to the centres.
The boss of Royal Dutch Shell said some months ago that their organisation had too many managers doing business with each other.
I'm not holding my breath for TFN to say something similar and act.
There is something wrong when you have more spin doctors based in Canberra than you do Approach controllers at our major airport.

[An Interested Party]

Yeah, sorry Max 1, I meant to include all the operational folk.

It would still be interesting to ask a service company like Serco how many managers they'd employ to look after 900 controllers, and 900 other operational or tecnical staff. A lot less than Airservices, I'd reckon.

[somniferous]

Managers

Didn't Qantas come out a few months back and state they had too many chiefs per indian?

Maybe AsA can learn something here?

[bubble.head]

another question is, why don't Sydney have runway aligned star? all these director / circuit just make things busier and waste more time and fuel.

[Blockla]

Why do we still have approach controllers in Sydney anyway? Is it not operationally realistic that the function be performed out of ML/BN?

The numbers didn't stack-up. Redundancy costs, relocation costs, training costs etc were higher than 15 years of savings generated by closing the TCU in Sydney; same is true of AD, PH and CS. Also having 30 APP (or so) rated controllers in Melbourne won't solve the staffing issues anymore than having 30 in Sydney does... having 34 or 36 would be a start...

It would be different (cost wise) if starting from 'green fields' but you're not...

another question is, why don't Sydney have runway aligned star? all these director / circuit just make things busier and waste more time and fuel.

You won't find too many airports anywhere in the world with parallel approaches with an aligned STAR... Whilst you feel like it costs you money/time/fuel, try flying a full STAR every time if they do come in... I recall seeing a draft solution which was submitted to industry some time back, and extra 5 minutes from the Feeder point on average to 'minimise the risks'... Mostly due to establishing on the LOCs at different heights etc on the parallels... Then there's that pesky political/noise can of worms... try getting any real change through that process....

I believe the reason not to have an aligned STAR for 07/25 is due to all the different "noise modes", there is no 'one solution' option due to the different DEP SID combinations... again a parallel runway issue...

There is a STAR which ends mid-downwind RWY34L is there not?

[etz]

Serco, in Dubai has just got its first (and only) HR person. I fear it is the thin edge of the wedge and expect nothing good to come of it.

[NetNanny]

These may sound like dumb questions- In an ideal world, what numbers of staffing needed for SY TMA APP/DEP? What is an ideal roster? And what actual numbers do we have now? AND, what roster is actually running now?

Was there EVER a time within AirServices or even CAA when the rosters were safely manned?

Sorry, it may help us plebs understand where the issue started...I am having a hard time justifying the extraordinary number of dead weight to actual revenue earning staff. 3000 total with about 800 at the coalface And you return how much every year to the shareholder??????

Not dumb questions at all, Busman. In fact you've probably hit on the heart of the issue and I wonder why no-one else is asking these questions. A big thank you to the person who produced the following figures:



So we've seen coalface controller numbers drop every single year from 70 to 48 while traffic numbers have increased 20%. Draw you own conclusions as to why airlines are getting these delays.

[Adamastor]

One in three gone without replacement. Now it's all starting to make sense.

[NetNanny]

On almost 200 days since the 1st of January 2008, Sydney has been one or more controllers below minimum staff. What has that cost the customers?

[Blockla]

Those figures are indeed damning! It is not isolated to the SY TCU either.

70 Operational ATCs reduced to 48 over 7 years, no wonder profits have gone from circa $30M pa to $120M pa in that period.

The airlines really should be questioning the value they get for 'reduced airways charges'. Less in airways bills, huge increases in fuel burn and scheduling delays... I would guess the balance is very very wrong at the moment. Each SY-ML flight is now $25 less per flight in Airways but $150 less efficient...? The only real benefit is to the manager with the bonus related to reduction in airways charges...

The staffing formulas used to be included in an ancient document called CATSOAM, now defunct... These figures clearly established minimum staffing; even though IMHO that formula produced a figure which was too low as it didn't include provision for long service leave or maternity leave. Now there is no guidance about minimum staffing... Hence really there is no such thing as 'minimum staffing' for a unit/group.

There is a concept of minimum staffing for a shift or day; ie minimum bums on seats for a given time. It is historically derived and amended from 'positions opened data'. When you have shortages for a given day, it impacts the minimum staffing establishment; ie "you only have 3.6 positions opened on Friday afternoons", so minimum staffing becomes 4 for Friday afternoons.

Despite the fact that you 'needed' 5 positions open and you only had 4 staff available. Staffing minimum's get less and less until you cannot provide service continuity...

Then the PR merchants get to spin that we have enough staff available, just not on that day etc... It's not our fault that 3 people called in sick with short notice... Despite the fact that it was 1 etc...

To all my friends in ASA management, "hello" from Ireland! Perhaps some of you could get a junket and see how staffing numbers should be managed... Sure the troops whinge about management here too, but it's an amazingly different attitude to staffing numbers and rostering. I know what I'm working in 2011 already; it will only be broken by training requirements or leave.

When was the last time Ireland had TIBA or traffic management because of unavailability of staff ask yourself, "why?".

Where is the real benefit to industry by running on the bones of your arse? It doesn't make sense; it's false economics always has been and always will be.

[ferris]

That post should be printed out and posted directly to both the management of AsA (you'd need a lot of paper, granted...), and the managers AND commercial departments of the airlines.

Maybe even a decent journalist? (sic)

[L030unrestricted]

Lest you gentle readers think that this is just a big smoke problem....

If ONE ...(1) Cairns controller.... gets hit by a bus/falls pregnant/ is sent to the funny farm etc... in the next 9 months.

Its all leave canceled lad/laddies ....and youŕe all chained H24 to the console... pass the slops bucket I need to pee!!!

The excreta will hit the rotating oscillator.. and be spread far and wide!

Duck and Cover!

L030