Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Qantas Shame

Old 6th Oct 2009, 13:06
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Raaf will be happy
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Old 7th Oct 2009, 01:17
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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El Perro

No - it is an ABSOLUTE FACT. The higher the price, the lower the demand. It is an undeniable fact.
Apply this argument to upper management.

What point do you as an Air Traffic Controller have to make on Qantas pay? I'm not saying you aren't entitled to an opinion on this - I'm serious - what is your beef in this - how do you think this effects you? What is your point on aircrew pay?
If you actually read your own posts, and the generalisations you make about unions/associations you may understand. You make broad sweeping statements that may have their basis on the BLF/wharfies of yesteryear, but do not reflect what Professional Associations are doing on behalf of their members now.

How do you see the AMA?

When they gain large increases across the board for their members is this okay, or should individual doctors be fronting the hospitals and seeing who will work for the lowest money?
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Old 7th Oct 2009, 07:59
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder what Sunfish would have to say? I remember when ElPerro was posting as "aircraft", Sunfish thought he was a goose. Sunfish, please give us your opinion please.
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Old 7th Oct 2009, 08:22
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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I remember "aircraft" ages ago. If I recall correctly he was a complete wan*er (by general mainstream standards anyway).

That's not an "ad hominem" argument either. Just a simple insult, and an opinion.

ElPerro must be a lovely boss to work for. Great esprit de corps going on in his workplace, I bet.
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Old 7th Oct 2009, 11:25
  #125 (permalink)  
Keg

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Lightbulb

aircraft was a troll and El Perro doesn't fit that definition.

El Perro claims to not be RAAF but is certainly from the same song sheet as Pass A Frozo who also hasn't been around for a while. Perhaps they went to the same uni....... ADFA?

There is a middle ground here too. El Perro is at one end with his anti union clap trap, others are at the opposite end with their 'all CEOs are evil' points of view. The middle ground holds the key to success.
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Old 7th Oct 2009, 12:48
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah Keg, that was part of the reason behind my "do I know you?" question a couple of posts ago.

Because I quite amicably know PAF from RAAF days many years ago. My last correspondence was a couple of years ago, but I would be a little bewildered if that whole exchange was from the same individual, as I wouldn't think he would be the sort of guy to invent a whole new pseudonym just for an anti-union rant. PAF's opinionated and proud of it.

Either way, I sincerely doubt that ElPerro speaks from experience of both sides of the coin, otherwise a more balanced view - pros and cons, etc - would probably result.

I totally agree with the middle ground statement, and fear that Australia is becoming more like the USA - politically polarised. You know - "you're either with us or against us".

Another logical fallacy! The "False Dichotomy"! How many can we talk about in one thread?
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Old 7th Oct 2009, 13:36
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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o - it is an ABSOLUTE FACT. The higher the price, the lower the demand. It is an undeniable fact.

Could El Perro, in less than 20 of his own words - not copied and pasted from the economist - explain the mass appeal of Apple computer products.
Significantly more expensive than equivalently equipped competitive items, yet the demand is outstripping supply: i.e. the iPhone.

Really, RU486 was designed to prevent the El Perros of this world.....
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Old 11th Oct 2009, 08:37
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Could El Perro, in less than 20 of his own words - not copied and pasted from the economist - explain the mass appeal of Apple computer products.
Significantly more expensive than equivalently equipped competitive items, yet the demand is outstripping supply: i.e. the iPhone.
Easy! Product differentiation allowing Apple to charge near monopolistic pricing.

Aircraft... Pass A Frozo
I still don't understand the logic. Do you guys really believe one (now two!) people are the only people with contact with the aviation industry who aren't pro unions? I think this says a lot about the state of the current industry if that's the case.

That's not an "ad hominem" argument either. Just a simple insult, and an opinion.
Hi DutchRoll,

A good quote that kind of sums up my opinion, from Pierre S. du Pont (25th of September 1790):

Gentlemen, it is a disagreeable custom to which one is too easily led by the harshness of the discussions, to assume evil intentions. It is necessary to be gracious as to intentions; one should believe them good, and apparently they are; but we do not have to be gracious at all to inconsistent logic or to absurd reasoning. Bad logicians have committed more involuntary cries than bad men have done intentionally"
I have no problems with your intent. All men want what is best. You, me and everyone else. It's the way we achieve that. I question logic.

Originally Posted by max1
How do you see the AMA?
Like any other union. The AMA exists to restrict the supply of doctors in order to maintain high wages. The current education system introduced by Gillard assists them in this endeavour. Whilst it appears perfectly permissible (as it should be) for a 22 year old to work, save and spend money on purchasing a V8 Commodore the current government finds it unacceptable for that same individual to work, save and spend that money on self funding education.

Doctors were the original unionists - read the original Hippocratic oath constructed 20 years after the death of Hippocrates (who taught anyone, so long as they would pay his fee) made in response to the fierce competition for medical service:

I swear ... to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.
Commonly what is known today as a closed shop... the original "no ticket, no start"
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
The original division of labor. This was an agreement where someone would swear that if they were trained to become a doctor they would not do the work currently undertaken by surgeons.

Originally Posted by Max1
should individual doctors be fronting the hospitals and seeing who will work for the lowest money?
There is no need for that. Firstly hospitals should be free to hire doctors on the wages that they (the hospital and the doctor) freely agree on. Doctors like people in most professions establish reputations on the quality of their work. New doctors don't command the salary that experienced, quality doctors do. The government (or a union) should have no role in deciding the salary.

Salaries in the free market are based on supply and demand, and to what extent individuals can differentiate themselves from others in terms of "quality".

A question for you, if union's are responsible for wages, why do accountant's earn more than cleaners? It certainly has nothing to do with the accountant having a "better union" than the cleaner.

As you see, my argument is not class based, it's logic based.

Moving back to the issue about Danish butter.....How can someone produce,package and transport Danish butter to Australia butter at a cost which is competitive to Australian butter....just a thought.
A little hard to read but I presume you are asking how Danish butter sells in Australia in competition to Australian Butter.

I don't know enough about the field of butter to make an analysis, but I suspect that you mentioning "Danish Butter" rather than "Butter" means there is some form of product differentiation involved? Does it sell as "butter" or "Danish Butter" ? You could ask a similar question - do flights on Gulf Air sell for less than QANTAS fares simply because of a differentiation in labour costs or because the products are not considered equal?

You might argue that the output of Australian workers differ to that of overseas workers. We've seen the aircraft engineer workers union making that case. The difference is that customers aren't being forced into choosing QANTAS of Gulf Air. The engineer's union seeks to force QANTAS to chose their workers. If the work of Australian engineer's is worth more than overseas workers and that product is demanded then you don't need a union making your pay claim.

Originally Posted by DutchRoll
You appear to be completely ignorant about what benefits I get out of the Pilot's Association. I'm not going to list the many benefits when I joined which had nothing whatsoever to do with increasing my salary
I have no problem with you seeking professional help / advice with a problem at work. Let me ask you this, if an organisation provided this assistance when needed, but did not involve itself in salary negotiations would you join them instead of the Pilots' Association?

High (inceasing) demand and lack of available supply can drive prices up, is the point I was making.
Precisely the point I was making, I'm glad we agree. However demand when considered alone is a function of price. If supply is contracting (driving up price) (and demand is static - in order to establish the relationship between supply and the price of labour) then wages will go up. Unless the airline reduces standards. Whilst prices rise, the company will continue to hire more staff (at the higher rate) so long as the labour they provide produces a higher income.

Originally Posted by Dutch Roll
Everything unions do is always bad
In relation to the economy - Yes. That is true until the day the unio advocates individual agreements where companies can decide with individuals what they wish to pay for their labour.

Last edited by ElPerro; 11th Oct 2009 at 08:59.
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Old 11th Oct 2009, 09:06
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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That is the biggest load of verbal diahorrea that I have read since I stopped reading Mills and Boon books!
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Old 11th Oct 2009, 09:15
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Margaret Thatcher
I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.
...............

I mean let's look at your contributions over the last few weeks:
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
ElPerro is that little know it all Aircraft (Mark whatever number he got up to before the moderators kicked him off) making a comeback
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
lPerro is definitely aircrafts love brother. ... I mean ElPerro, how's your sandpit going? Did Father Christmas bring you any more Tonka toys for it?
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
Aircraft, oops, aircraft mark 2, oops, sorry, I mean ElPerro, sorry I get confused, you've gone very quiet. Are you upset that employee's get paid?
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
Somebody has gone very quiet. I haven't heard any aircraft buzzing about or any Spanish yodling of late....
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
First day back at school and Elperro's back
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
Did you go away for holidays ElPerro?
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
I wonder what Sunfish would have to say? I remember when ElPerro was posting as "aircraft", Sunfish thought he was a goose. Sunfish, please give us your opinion please.
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
at is the biggest load of verbal diahorrea that I have read since I stopped reading Mills and Boon books!
Originally Posted by Enema Bandit's Dad
See what I mean?
Not unfortunately I don't see what you mean. You haven't actually said anything. Do you actually have a point other than "I don't agree". I'm yet to see you actually offer an opinion, other than saying "NOT!" at the end of each of my posts. Apologies for not quoting your kooky emoticons in each quote.

Last edited by ElPerro; 11th Oct 2009 at 09:42.
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Old 11th Oct 2009, 09:33
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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See what I mean?
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Old 11th Oct 2009, 10:00
  #132 (permalink)  
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Darth Dixon -- "There is a great disturbance in the dark side of the force" ...... Nahhh mate it's just another long winded rant & rave from ElPerro!

EBD I think EP may have a brown dog named Kevin
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Old 11th Oct 2009, 10:01
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Nope!
Read yours, not his!
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Old 11th Oct 2009, 10:18
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Okay ElPerro, I'm sorry for my comments. The trouble is that you come across as a real know it all.
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Old 11th Oct 2009, 10:48
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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That's ok. I don't mind if you disagree, but discuss why.

I've thought through these issues, studied them and experienced them. I don't claim to know it all - far from it, and I'm not claiming you haven't experienced some of these things but I'm happy to debate the issues - however I believe most people have not actually thought through many of these issues to their logical conclusion. It's not a case that I believe I know it all, however having thought through these things before I usually have an answer ready to most questions asked.

If you disagree then make the point and we can discuss!

The point I was making was that it's immaterial to your future earnings whether GD was paid $1 or $3 million unless that payment places the company in a position where it would become insolvent. Alternatively if QF couldn't get funding to purchase new aircraft, and the problem was a lack of cash in the bank due to directors payment you might have a case - but tht doesn't seem to be the case. It's the shareholders money and the company's board of directors answer to the shareholders for that decision. A company makes decisions on how many engineers or pilots to employ and at what rate based on how much money they'll make in the coming years from our labour.

Last edited by ElPerro; 11th Oct 2009 at 11:05.
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Old 12th Oct 2009, 01:42
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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El Perro

You seem to have unbridled faith (in people managing large companies) that their decisions will ALWAYS be made in the best interests of shareholders in those companies in the short/medium and long term.
You may come up with an argument that the management will be changed by the directors through shareholder activism when situations arise that may warrant them.

The shareholders on the whole are large managed funds. These large funds are usually ranked on a 1-3 year performance basis. They can, and do,unwind at anytime if they feel that in the longer term a company will begin to underperform.

The upper levels of management are usually performance managed on a yearly basis. Where do you think their focus is on? Management are usually given a short term 'bar' to jump (KPIs).

The point I was making was that it's immaterial to your future earnings whether GD was paid $1 or $3 million unless that payment places the company in a position where it would become insolvent.
Why does this only to pertain to the upper levels of management? Is it because they are seen as only short-term? Surely it would be a good management practice to lead by example. Maybe sitting down the back occasionally, or making a family member give up their seat for a full fare paying passenger would give the staff an example of how much you value the revenue generating side of a company.

People involved in Associations/Unions tend to have a longer term outlook. Their members are concerned with the longer term health of a company that they work for. Witness people agreeing to pay freezes when a company is going through hard times. Is it wrong for them to expect a pay increase when things improve?

The boss of JAL was paying himself a pittance in comparison to what goes on in Australia.

Your apologist arguments for what has become the mindset for some in corporate Australia, and the vitriol you direct at any Association/Union serves to paint you as someone who is so blinkered in their argument as to become inconsequential.
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Old 12th Oct 2009, 08:07
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Elperro, I'd like to hear you take on this link:
Pilots on Food stamps
(Thanks Mr Hat for the link.)
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